Catamaran vs trimaran

[kowerchukb@yahoo.com]

Hello all,

Even though I expect most on the forum sail a cat, not a tri, I am interested in the opinions and how each compare.

So, first question: how do cats and tris compare for cruising?
-Strengths of each?
-Weaknesses of each?

I ask, because we have a low budget <$100k and seem to be faced with a couple of choices... either wait to see how much we can grow the bugdet for the boat, or look for an older boat. In the latter, there are few cats (other than very small), but seem to many older Pivers, Searunners, etc that seem to be large enough (40') and outfitted for blue water cruising. The Searunners seem to be the VW Camper of the lot, and that's where I seem to be leaning.

So, second question: for a <$100k budget, should I consider a Searunner tri?
-if an older tri, is Searunner a good choice, or another?
-are there older cats that I should consider instead?
-is an older ply/epoxy boat a maintenance nightmare - good when newer but a lot more work now?
-are the accomodations reasonable? (or will my wife divorce me when she realizes it will be like living in tents :rolleyes: )

To keep the post length down, I won't go into what are my needs and wants, but can do so if you think it's important to the thread.

Thanks in advance for anything you can share!

Bradk
(current boat - 1993 Corsair F24 tri, sailing on inland lakes)

[cchesley]

Well, since you already sail an F-24, you should be pretty aware of what you get vs don't get with a tri. Your needs, plans and intended area of use will have a lot to do with what we can help you with so please give us the Cliff Notes on that. Searunners are great Designs. However, since they were not likely to be production boats you need to be discerning about them on an individual basis. There are a couple nice Dick Newick tris out cruising quite successfully also.

You probably won't get a nice all molded separate shower and multiple private staterooms but you will likely get a boat fun to sail if its kept light. You'll be closer to the camp side of the equation than the luxury side, especially in your budget range. But for 1 or 2 people a tri can be a good answer.

[Woods Designs]

The Searunners are now all fairly old

One problem is potential rot in the outriggers, especially on those which didn't get epoxied inside and out

Anything less than a 34 and you'll find the accommodation cramped because the central cockpit takes up so much space.

A good reputation though and sail well enough.

In part it depends on what you mean by "cruising" and what comfort level you need (as opposed to want)

As you know I will be back cruising my 2005 launched 34ft Romany catamaran in a few days. We will be on board for 6 months and find it a comfortable boat for a couple

If we were to sell it we'd be asking USD80,000 so it is certainly possible to get a newish cruising catamaran in your price range

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com (http://www.sailingcatamarans.com)

[kowerchukb@yahoo.com]

Thanks for the replies and good information.

As to our needs:
-we will live aboard, likely in the Caribbean / Central America for 6 to 8 months out of the year.
-eventually a circumnavigation may be possible, but I'm not going to buy the boat for that until we try liveaboard first.
-we will be the 2 of us, with occasional guests
-comfort level? I guess this is where more time needs to be spent on our part. I think I could live with minimal as long as I can sail, whereas my wife will naturally want to build us a home. Yes, need to make sure to take her ideas into account here.

Wants?
-I would like a good sailing boat, and obviously enjoy the sailing abilities of the F24 - but I don't think there would be many who would consider that a "live aboard" :)
-We would like moderate load carrying, but honestly I don't know what that means to us right now. Some have said 1000 lbs per bunk, others would need a whole lot more.

When I looked at the specs of the Searunners, I was thinking the 40' may be needed to get the load carrying (3500lbs?). Richard, thanks for the perspective that there can be affordable cats as well. I like a lot about the Romany, but if I've got it figured right, the load is 1500? That seems light to me, but as I said, this is all new to me.

Bradk

[Talbot]

You are not really comparing like with like.

Most Tris are performance orientated, and thus need to be compared with a similar cat (e.g. maine , woods designs, a lot of the australian designs etc.)

None of these can really accept a cruising comfort package without having an impact on performance.

A tri will normally perform better to windward, but the the cat better off the wind (decision on intended cruising pattern) and the sailing will normally be a bit more exciting.

A tri has less living space

A tri will have an even more difficult job finding a haul out

However, for long term cruising, the majority of people like to have their comforts, and thus need a boat that can accept a bit more load. This is accepted with the resultant performance penalty as most cruisers are more interested in slowing down to a comfortable speed than rattling their bones dashing from port to port.

[multihullsailor6]

Hi Bradk,

When I was looking for a multihull for long-term cruising and undecided on the cat versus tri configuration, one of the issues which I did not like with most tris was the typical saloon layout with a bunk port and starboard and maybe two wing berths.

Have you seen this trimaran which falls within your budget at http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/Trimaran--1581315/New-Zealand.? It has a refreshing layout for a trimaran amd might fit your cruising ideas. I also like the twin wheel steering and the biggish cockpit.

Please keep us informed on your search progress and decision.

[3Psuite]

Interesting boat great use of space:)

[multihullsailor6]

Yes I thought so too, had her in the final selection but then the owner was still asking more than €90,000! which I thought excessive.

[Woods Designs]

You can see some of my thoughts on load carrying here

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1043

I think we all know that all boats are heavier than the designer/builder hopes. And it is also very easy to add un-necessary weight

One clear example is the Strider I raced in 1992 (OK, I know, a long time ago). It was built as a production grp kit boat in 1986 using the standard laminates and sold to a guy who launched it but never sailed it (a long story, basically he put a big box on top and lived on it up the Exe, and I think we know the sort of people who live in that area)

Anyway, that owner died and I bought the boat. I then fitted it out and raced it with some success in 1992. It is now sailing in Sweden.

Before racing it was accurately weighed with all necessary safety gear, as were all the other Striders racing that year. My Strider was 15% lighter than the next lightest and nearly 40% lighter than the heaviest.

Yet we were all racing (thus all boats should have been emptied of un-necessary gear) and all the hulls and beams weighed the same as they all came from the same moulds and supplier.

So you can see that predicting boat weights is difficult. And thus it is much easier to just give the empty shell weight, rather than the complete boat weight, which is what many people do.

Having said all that I don't know what the 1000lbs per person refers to. Maybe a guide to everything you need on a boat?? Certainly not personal gear. On Friday I fly to my Romany to spend 6 months on board. As you know, one is now limited to 2 bags, each 50lbs, when flying. So that is what I am taking, but that weight includes my computer, new spinnaker sheets, navtex and other boat "stuff" plus clothes etc for 6 months. Jetti is bringing her sewing machine to the boat as hand luggage!

Forget for a moment the figures and look at the real world. Two of us live comfortably on Romany for 6 months at a time. Yet we are not overloaded and the boat sails fast enough for most. Racing last winter in the Bahamas we easily beat a PDQ36 and Fountaine Pajot 48, never mind all but 2 of the monohulls.

The thread above shows what we had on Eclipse. These days you can save a lot of weight. On my USB hard drive I have dozens of DVD's, hundreds of downloaded books, all the charts of the world and thousands of music tracks as well as over 10,000 photographs. Yet all that weighs less than one paper back book and takes up less space.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com (http://www.sailingcatamarans.com)

[kowerchukb@yahoo.com]

Richard,
Thank you for the link to the other thread on load carrying; very valuable advice.

Also, someone kindly emailed me that my numbers were way off for the Romany, and that the load carrying is actually 1.5 tons, which is either 3000lbs (short tons) or ~3300lbs (metric tonnes).

As to the 1000 lbs per person allowance; I will reply to Richards other thread, as it is likely more appropriate there.

As to the cat versus tri discussion; I can see there is much yet to consider. My biggest problem right now is that I'm 1000 miles inland from the ocean, so my F24 is one of the "big" boats around here :). We need to plan a trip to start getting on some cruising boats to start to sort this out.

Thanks again,
Bradk

[Leatherman]

Hi

I've been considering this question today. I would really appreciate some more advice from people. My long-term plan was, until a few months ago, to rent out my house, complete a day-skipper course, and put myself forward for crewing so I can start globe-trotting. One day possibly buying my own boat, once I got the experience and the cash. (I have only sailled mono-hulls in the past, and usually not overnight)

Then I started to wonder if I could just get my own boat, and I found James Wharram's website and I suddenly saw maybe I could just build my own.

I would be travelling by myself (I am used to/enjoy a degree of solitude) with the occasional guest. Initially at least it would be mostly coastal trekking, but I want the flexibility to do longer crossings once I get my skills and confidence up. I don't drive and I don't have a big budget so a big boat is impractical as I need to be able to transport it, moor it and get it in and out of the water without requiring massive equipment (a mate with a tow-hitch). I also need to be able to sail it by myself and put it together and take it apart on my own.

A multihull seems perfect for me, I like knowing it probably won't capsize or sink, will be stable, and you have space to spread out on, and it can be easily beached. Up until yesterday I was looking at the Tiki 21 (and admiring Rory McDougall), and then the Tiki 26 as the 21 isn't recommended for going ocean. What has been niggling at me is the lack of headroom (I am 6'). I will be looking at living on the boat for long periods of time, (as I can't go home) and it won't always be in sub-tropical conditions or glorious weather. I know from camping by myself that a one-man tent can be great for weight reasons and lovely and comfortable to sleep in, but when it's raining outside and you can barely even sit up it can be pretty frustrating and miserable. (Even just having a porch so you can keep the door open in the rain would help). Staring at a wall 1' in front of you for 8 hours can send you loopy.

So I need to know that I can lock myself inside the cabin, and not feel completely cramped and claustrophobic, still cook, move about and relax (getting cramp is the worst, if you can't move about to shake it off).

I know on the Cat' designs it is possible to use a boom tent, and in good conditions I'm sure that would be sufficient. I have looked at gallery after gallery of pictures, but there are very few that give you a good idea of what the interior is like, I get the feeling it won't be enough space for me to be able to spread myself about (width and headroom).

The articles I have read say Tri's have less space than Cat's but then at least this space is all on one area, again, it is very difficult to judge this from the plans, and many don't discuss headroom. Plus, with extra storage space in the Ama's you win again. After looking at some pictures of trimarans they actually look a lot more roomy than the equivalent cat'. I think the idea of more space in a cat' is based on travelling with several people, and the primary consideration is the number of beds, and being able to spread out on deck.

(Another idea, I have been thinking about copying the design of a VW camper, with an extendable concertina roof).

I really like Wharram's designs (and his website is good-looking, professional and easy to navigate, compared to all the others I have looked at, this makes a big difference to my choice) but I don't think they will offer me the level of comfort I need, I am having trouble find good clear plans for Trimarans, but I have found these sites:

http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/price_order.htm (http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesigns.com/price_order.htm)

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/index.html (http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/index.html)

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=530 (http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=530)

This boat seems perfect: http://www.ahoy-boats.info/Accommodation.html (http://www.ahoy-boats.info/Accommodation.html) but I can't afford £50k

most of the designs were so unclear I gave up, or didn't offer the headroom I want. But the Farrier and Horstman designs seem to provide what I want, can anyone comment, or suggest anything else that I can compare to, that will meet my needs? Or perhaps is there a small Cat design that offers a sheltered deck that turns two hulls into one single living space (is this a cuddy?)

This is a long-term plan for me, over the next 5 or 10 years, I may be being too ambitious here, but I have to try and live the dream. Choosing something that reaches the right balance between comfort and practicality before I start will be crucial. I will never have a lot of money or resources, so I have to tread carefully and make sure I don't take on something way out of my reach, but at the same time if I don't feel comfortable and at home on it for long periods it will be a waste of time.

I would appreciate any advice that people would care to offer on this, or my plans generally. Are the trimarans as easy to build as the cat's seem to be? Are there small Cat designs out there that offer a bit more room? Or am I just misinterpreting the plans and pictures?

Thanks in advance, sorry for my usual rambling post.
:)
Steve

[Tabs]

I'm 6' and have owned and sailed Tiki 26. I think it's too small for your purposes and its bigger sister Tiki 30 would be a better choice. Have you looked at Richard Woods designs? His open deck 9m Windsong or 8.5m deck cabin Gypsy would both fit the bill. http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

[Leatherman]

Hi Tabs

Thanks for getting back to me. One of the first things I read was to choose the smallest boat I could get away with, and I think that is probably very good advice, especially as I tend to be overambitious anyway. I had set myself an upper limit of below 30', but I will have another look at the Tiki 30. I get the impression that at that size things will get exponentially more complicated: extra build time, materials, harder to transport, as well as being more difficult for one person to handle.

I had looked through the Woods designs, but nothing had stood out, I will take a look at the two you recommend. I figured out over the weekend that one of the reasons I spent longer looking at the Wharrams is the names are unusual, it makes it very easy to Google and find lots of information and examples.

Cheers for the recommendations. I will take a look now.

Steve

[Leatherman]

Tabs, I see what you mean, the extra capacity is obvious straight away, perhaps I just need to change my plans and go for a slightly larger size than I intended. The central cabin on the Gypsy looks very comfortable, and has lots of natural light. I had steered away from this because I think it would make the construction a lot more complicated and time-consuming, am I right? Cheers :)

[Tabs]

I don't think building the deck cabin for Gypsy would over complicate the build, Richard Woods posts on this forum, perhaps he'll see this and comment.

[simonfraser.97]

i have sailed both a strider&scamper cat and now an 8m grainger tri.

i'd go for the tri every time.

they are not cheap boats, that's where the wharrams win.

but, with a tri the accomodation is all in one, central, and much more sheltered / drier, unlike an open decked cat.

[Leatherman]

Hi Simon

Thanks for an opposing point of view. This is what I was wondering. Can anyone advise what the difference will be in terms of the complexity of the build? Compared to an open/deck or central cabin. Can anyone suggest good plans?

Cheers
Steve

[simonfraser.97]

Hi Leatherman,

i'd def sail a few before you build.

my boat is near colchester, essex, let me know if you want to see / sail her.

8m ply epoxy grainger 2000 vintage.

go south to multihull world too, emsworth.
they have lots of stock, allways good for ideas.

simonkleyn@btconnect.com

[Leatherman]

Thanks Simon, that's a very kind offer. This is all just a dream at the moment. Mostly killing time at the end of a boring job. I may take you up on that one day though :) . You're right, the obvious next step is to actually get in a few and see how they fit.

Steve

[simonfraser.97]

no prob, start checking out a few now, that will give you the incentive to live on a wreck and sail away from your boring job ;)