boat handling

[2MT]

Ive got a couple questions on herding cats :)

1. when docking do you use spring lines like a mono hull?
I assume this will be a yes.
2. are there any tricks that a mono hull sailor would not figure out quickly?

3. when docking in a slip that is slightly off current what are the difficulties that develop as the hulls catch?

4. do dagger boards allow you to pivot a cat into a slip like you can a mono hull?

5. has any one here tried direct steering with the outboards and rudders?

6. if so how is the controll?
7. does it cause any odd stresses to the beam connections?

8. has any one docked under sail?
9. are there any tricks that differ from mono hulls?

10. how easy is it to warp a cat around other boats?

11. do you need to run lines to the out side hull to make warping easy?

these all probably sound pretty dumb but i figured i would ask any way.

[Ozmultis]

Ive got a couple questions on herding cats :)
1. when docking do you use spring lines like a mono hull?
yes.
2. are there any tricks that a mono hull sailor would not figure out quickly?
The only one will be the use of twin motors and non use of rudder
3. when docking in a slip that is slightly off current what are the difficulties that develop as the hulls catch? Current isnt as big an issue as wind-age and with twin motors current can be used to side slip

4. do dagger boards allow you to pivot a cat into a slip like you can a mono hull? They "grip" the water more, but on a twin engine boat that is a moot point.

5. has any one here tried direct steering with the outboards and rudder

Do you mean - the outboard connected to the Rudders?

8. has any one docked under sail? Yes and I was scared
9. are there any tricks that differ from mono hulls?

Depends - twin engines demand a whole different approach, rudders (at least on my boat) are ignored and engines do the steering and it all happens at a much slower speed.

10. how easy is it to warp a cat around other boats? Never tried

[paulrack]

You can warp a boat to get out of a tight spot, made easier by twin engines. I was used to a monohull and chartered a leopard 46 in Croatia. I had never helmed a cat before. I went through docking stern to a thousand times in my mind so that when I did it there was no thought involved. We docked stern too every night sometimes in tight gaps and with strong sidewinds. I never bumped the dock or another boat in that week. It is actually easier than docking my 34ft monohull when you get the knack.

[Talbot]

If you have twin outboards, there are definite advantages to being able to turn the outboards with the rudders, but there are also significant disadvantages.

1. much more effective steering at slow speeds.

2. No thought required to consider which way the engines are pointing.

3. when motorsailing, if engines are tied to rudders, you can lose the thrust over a wave due to trying to steer round it, whereas motors stuck for and aft provide constant thrust.

4. you need to disconnect the linkage when hoisting the engine up, and then re-connect when lowering.

I overcame these disadvantages by adding a seperate steering system to my outboard, and used a single lever instead of a wheel in order to turn it. All of the above disadvantages disappeared. But it did make 2 slightly more difficult. It also then mimics the system that Prout used for control of their single sillette leg.

[2MT]

hmm i never considered slaving the out board to the rudders. that i think would be limiting hence the dagger board question. i have a umiak that i love to take new instructors out in because it has a dagger board, motor well and a huge rudder. lets me play with the boat in ways that only the exploration boats could manage.

i have a few years experiance with twin screws and more, so am not worried about that terribly much. I don't like the idea of having to use the engines for every thing. I don't think we will motor sail very much unless it is dead calm; wife and I tend to think 1/2 knt is ok. :D

[pir8ped]

I have no motor, so always sail away from my mooring. Sometimes it has been a little chaotic, so the harbourmaster needed no persuading to find me a mooring right by the harbour entrance :) Now getting away is easy, but while I have a lot of experience mooring monohulls without an engine, I have given up trying with my cat. Too light, too much windage, and with the fluky winds typical in a harbour... now coming in, I drop a light anchor near my mooring, and row over with a rope.

On the plus side, warping a cat around a harbour is excellent, because you can influence the direction you want to go by pulling from different places between the bows. I wouldn't try it in strong winds, but otherwise, it's great.

[searenitysail]

This article might help.

http://www.catamarans.com/news/2007/06/TwinScrewCatamarans.asp

BTW, if you can get a copy of Cruising World, July 2006 p.78, Todd Scantlebury wrote a pretty good article, "How to Herd a Cat."

Marshall

[jkd]

This article might help.

http://www.catamarans.com/news/2007/06/TwinScrewCatamarans.asp

This is all true. I had not dealt with a twin screw boat for 30+ years and was able to walk a FP38 sideways out from boats front and back with 2 feet on either end with no issues first try (limited wind and current). The spread of the engines and the keels or centerboards allow some very nice maneuvering.

John

[2MT]

I have no motor, so always sail away from my mooring. Sometimes it has been a little chaotic, so the harbourmaster needed no persuading to find me a mooring right by the harbour entrance :) Now getting away is easy, but while I have a lot of experience mooring monohulls without an engine, I have given up trying with my cat. Too light, too much windage, and with the fluky winds typical in a harbour... now coming in, I drop a light anchor near my mooring, and row over with a rope.

On the plus side, warping a cat around a harbour is excellent, because you can influence the direction you want to go by pulling from different places between the bows. I wouldn't try it in strong winds, but otherwise, it's great.
good to know, How are you likeing your woods boat?

[2MT]

This article might help.

http://www.catamarans.com/news/2007/06/TwinScrewCatamarans.asp

BTW, if you can get a copy of Cruising World, July 2006 p.78, Todd Scantlebury wrote a pretty good article, "How to Herd a Cat."

Marshall

thanks for the link it is very informative. I had not thought of the width as an advantage in most of the maneuvers.

since i have lots of experiance with twin screws this sounds like it will be very doable. in the pacific NW we tend to have roomy ports. however; we also have some that i like that are rather tight.

[artemidorus]

1. when docking do you use spring lines like a mono hull?
Yes. A good trick is also to run your breast lines from the outside hull, just off the ends of the inside hull - it gives them a lot more elasticity when you get whacked by wash on the dock. The very short breast lines that the narrow, straight hulls of a cat would otherwise require you to use tend to pull tight hard when the boat rises or falls on the dock.
2. are there any tricks that a mono hull sailor would not figure out quickly?
You are much more a victim of windage than a monomaran would be. With a hard breeze pushing you onto the dock, it can be hard to get off it. The trick seems to be to throw off your stern and reverse off, watching to go off straight rather than turning out as you go, or you will scrape the bow. Sometimes you need to warp off another boat or another bit of the dock to throw the stern off.
8. has any one docked under sail?
I think that to do this as a routine would be imprudent seamanship, although the occasional drill under benign conditions might be justifiable. If I couldn't get back onto a crowded mooring or a dock under power, I would rather anchor and repair, or arrange a tow.

[pir8ped]

'How are you likeing your woods boat?'

Nothing to dislike! Goes great, especially to windward - surprisingly well. Great to go 7-8 knots close hauled in a force 2!

All of my trips have been relatively short, with many sail changes and adjustments so I haven't experimented yet with the downwind setup to try out performance. Usually, I just get it going well enough and see to other jobs, like preparing fishing gear.

Hoping to do quite a bit longer trips next season.

[2MT]

Yes. A good trick is also to run your breast lines from the outside hull, just off the ends of the inside hull - it gives them a lot more elasticity when you get whacked by wash on the dock. The very short breast lines that the narrow, straight hulls of a cat would otherwise require you to use tend to pull tight hard when the boat rises or falls on the dock.

You are much more a victim of windage than a monomaran would be. With a hard breeze pushing you onto the dock, it can be hard to get off it. The trick seems to be to throw off your stern and reverse off, watching to go off straight rather than turning out as you go, or you will scrape the bow. Sometimes you need to warp off another boat or another bit of the dock to throw the stern off.

I think that to do this as a routine would be imprudent seamanship, although the occasional drill under benign conditions might be justifiable. If I couldn't get back onto a crowded mooring or a dock under power, I would rather anchor and repair, or arrange a tow.

good points.

do folks often run the mooring lines from the far hull?

seems like if you had the aft line on the far hull in the windy conditions you could use it to help power the bow around.

I would practice the docking under sail several time in safe conditions before i tried it in a crowd. I have found that i dont agree to run a boat or ship any more till i have some time to actually drive the boat for a bit and get the feel of it. call it a lesson from a ship with 2 old MANS, direct drive and only three shifts before the air ran out. :( thankfully i had the guidance of a good skipper and first mate. but i wont ever forget that lesson.

[2MT]

'How are you likeing your woods boat?'

Nothing to dislike! Goes great, especially to windward - surprisingly well. Great to go 7-8 knots close hauled in a force 2!

All of my trips have been relatively short, with many sail changes and adjustments so I haven't experimented yet with the downwind setup to try out performance. Usually, I just get it going well enough and see to other jobs, like preparing fishing gear.

Hoping to do quite a bit longer trips next season.

I am looking forward to hearing in detail about your fishing trips under sail on that cat. I think that you are gonna know that boat way better than most folks that cruise. that knowledge would be a great thing to pass on.:)

[Peccadillo]

Lots of good points in this thread. The control with two props wide apart is for me the key difference to a mono, but effect of windage, lack of momentum (not a bad thing, just different - you're more likely to see a multi drifting away from the dock than smashing into it :) ) and the need to think about whether you want your centrboards - if you have them - up or down, are other key differences.

Use your width, especially with mooring where there is a big tidal range, or when you are warping. Those cleats on the outer hull are often a very good place to have a line.

Warping - you can warp anything in my view as long as you put in the hard work. They warped men-o-war in Nelson's day with no motors, so your can warp your multi! Like anything, practice helps. Also, take a look at barges and other floating platforms and how the professionals moor them and warp them. Take the time to think about the angles and the resultant forces, particularly how your lines will interact with a push or pull from either or both motors.

We once spent an hour planning how to warp my 14m cat around so she was facing out to sea. Strong wind (30+ kn) blowing off the dock, narrow channel (c.35 m) with shallow sand and rock on the other bank. We would normally have no trouble turning in that space with the motors but not in that wind - far too risky. With 2 crew on shore manning lines, one on board and me on the helm and motors (and half the local town watching!), we turned her safely and neatly, and I believe we could have done it without the motors if we had to.

[ireaney]

We have talked here about using 2 engines when handling a cat at close quarters, but any advice from those with experience when using only 1 central outboard as in the Catalacs or Twins or FP Maldives and others of course, I would love to know the pitfalls and how to overcome them :)

[jkd]

We have talked here about using 2 engines when handling a cat at close quarters, but any advice from those with experience when using only 1 central outboard as in the Catalacs or Twins or FP Maldives and others of course, I would love to know the pitfalls and how to overcome them :)

I have only driven the Gemini with the steerable leg for a sngle screw cat. It handled fine except this particular boat had a broken down lock pin so I had limited reverse even with one of my kids standing on the top of the drive unit.
I would think if you had a non-steering motor you would just need to keep the water flowing over the rudders all the time or you would have serious issues.

John

[smj]

Our Catfisher 32 had the sonic leg, our Cherokee 35 a 50hp Honda and our Gemini 32 a 40hp Honda, all drives were connected to the rudders. Once you get used to the system it's a joy to use. The ability to direct the thrust is a beautiful thing, sometimes more manuverable than a twin screw. Short hard bursts of thrust seem to really push the boat around. Hard to explain but at times I wish I had the single steerable outboard over the twin screws. The twin screw hydraulic drives gave great control as you could set the rpm at 2000 or so then kick the hydraulic motor in gear and really push the boat around.
A.J.

[FSMike]

Ian - One thing we found in the old days on an Iroquois 30 with a non-steering single outboard was that the boat was much easier to control in close quarters by using reverse whenever possible. People looked at us weird, but oh well.

[therapy]

We have talked here about using 2 engines when handling a cat at close quarters, but any advice from those with experience when using only 1 central outboard as in the Catalacs or Twins or FP Maldives and others of course, I would love to know the pitfalls and how to overcome them :)

I have never driven a cat with motors in both hulls. Only watched while on board. Doesn't seem to hard to me.

My Gemini experience is that it is easier to "drive" than any mono I have ever driven with one exception. My Westerly Nimrod. It had a outboard on a bracket that could spin 360. Between that and the rudder amazing tricks could occur.
But to the Gemini.

I would think if you had a non-steering motor you would just need to keep the water flowing over the rudders all the time or you would have serious issues.

John

Correct. Like a monohull. Have to have water flowing over the rudder or nothing is going to happen.

hard bursts of thrust seem to really push the boat around.
smj

Works great. Just like a center console or other "fishing" type boat with a single outboard. If you just put it in gear and turn it is a wide circle. With the Gemini and a wind that slow wide circle ends up being a straight line - does not work too well. Crank the rudder (the drive turns too) and hammer it for just a bit and it "kicks" the rear end around. This is how I do a three point turn when I come to my dock. It is about 50ft wide and I do most of a 360 to the right, turn hard over and "pull" the stern left while taking way off and finish with another right hard over with "taps" to the gas to get final placement. Wind changes when turns are initiated and the amount of throttle used but it is easy.
Can't do that with a mono very well.

And like FSMike I have found that if there is a good breeze it is easier to just go in reverse. The boat will "weather vane" around the drive. If going forward and a breeze starts to catch you then the only way out is power up through to the eye of the wind again. In crowded places that take too many feet of travel.

I have used many small outboard power boats and the maneuvers with the single drive leg boat are exactly the same for the most part as far as I can tell...........only a few months of ownership so far though.

edit:

I know this is going to cost me but............

I have had a few people on board, boaters and land lubbers alike and when I do some of these turns and things they are amazed it can be done. To me it is simple physics and not that hard. This statement will cost me though I know.
A couple of times I have asked "how close am I there on the bow" (them being up near the bow) and they say what they think is the distance so I do my "4ft wave" interpretation and compensate. Last time I heard "you're going to hit it, you're going to hit it, YOU'RE GOING TO HIT IT". Whew, I didn't, whew.
I know saying this stuff is going to cost me.

Back on tack.

A single drive (steerable) on a cat is a lot easier than a monohull.

PS Please forgive the "right and left" stuff instead of port, stern, bow stuff. Sometimes I don't care that much about it, especially with a lubber aboard.

PPS
smj
sometimes more manuverable than a twin screw
I don't see how that could be but I'll take your course one day if possible.

[Talbot]

I have used many small outboard power boats and the maneuvers with the single drive leg boat are exactly the same for the most part as far as I can tell..

Comparison between the single engine cat and a single outdrive is one I have used frequently.

Manoeuvres in light wind conditions can amaze mono owners, but it is a different matter in strong winds, getting enough weigh on in order to give the rudders some bite, and move to windward can take some space. Manoeuvring out of tight spaces in these conditions is definitely done best by going astern.

[therapy]

Talbot,

I need help in learning how to get off the dock with wind abeam to about 60 deg. holding me in place.

I backed out sliding on the port hull till I was blown down to the floating dock. Then I backed out the stern a little and ran the bow into the dock and used forward to pivot on that point. Then I powered in reverse for a nearly comlete circle to come back into the wind and head out. Perverse.

Could I just tie a dock line to my stb aft cleat and power ahead till I am pulled into the wind and then just drop the line to be picked up after returning?

here is a pic of where I am docked. Only a small portion of the floating dock is visible on the left. It extends about 40ft to the other wall of the canal. It is even more fun when there are boats on the other side!

[jkd]

Talbot,

I need help in learning how to get off the dock with wind abeam to about 60 deg. holding me in place.

I backed out sliding on the port hull till I was blown down to the floating dock. Then I backed out the stern a little and ran the bow into the dock and used forward to pivot on that point. Then I powered in reverse for a nearly comlete circle to come back into the wind and head out. Perverse.

Could I just tie a dock line to my stb aft cleat and power ahead till I am pulled into the wind and then just drop the line to be picked up after returning?

here is a pic of where I am docked. Only a small portion of the floating dock is visible on the left. It extends about 40ft to the other wall of the canal. It is even more fun when there are boats on the other side!

Jeff,

I would think you could use an aft line to the starboard hull and pivot the bows out or a forward line to the port bow and back the stern all the way around to achieve your goal. With proper fenders in place of course.
If the aft line arrangement interferes with the dinghy or other stuff a spring line from forward on the dock to the aft port cleat will allow you to pivot without going backwards.

John

[Talbot]

I need help in learning how to get off the dock with wind abeam to about 60 deg. holding me in place.
I am assuming that you are meaning wind from 60 deg off the Stbd bow.

In that situation with my single engine catalac, I would first try to move further forward if possible to give a bit more room astern.

I would put a fwd spring in position with a quick release on it. and put a lot of fenders on the port bow!

I would cant the outboard as far to port as possible cast off all lines other than the fwd spring and go ahead pulling the stern round at least 60 degrees.

I would cant the outboard around fully to starboard and go full astern casting off the fwd spring.

The stern would weather cock around directly into the wind and I would move away until I had the space to go ahead, and get up enough speed to turn into the wind.

remember a catalac does not have a lars keel so has very little directional stability by comparison to a more modern cat. It means she will pivot a bit better in some circumstances, but also means that she will slide outwards in a turn (like a slow single outdrive motorboat).

I do not know if this will work for your boat as I have not driven her.

Going hard aft against a back spring will pull the bow out, but you risk a significant impact on the jetty as the boat tries to pivot about the mid point and while the bow tries to move in the right direction, this forces the stern into the jetty (prepare for GRP repair) This is further exacerbated by the wind blowing you on.

You could also use a back spring, and warp the bows from the floating dock practically into the wind, and this would enable you to move ahead without such a concern, assuming you can get that line in from the dock without getting around a propellor, and you have someone handy on the dock to let go at the critical moment.

Of course if you have a bow thruster, and a stern thruster, you can just move sideways out into the middle of the river and continue onwards. (Dont laugh, I have seen a 10m cat with twin engines and twin bow and twin stern thrusters, and the skipper was scared to leave his slip in anything over a 10kt breeze).

This of course is making a few assumprions about space for this manoeuvre that cannot be confirmed as the photo does not give enough info.

I am available to give lessons next summer ;) (I wish)

[therapy]

Thanks Talbot.

Much food for thought.

Yes, you are correct in assuming the wind from beam to 60deg forward. I was not clear.

Yes, my fear using a line from the stb stern cleat and going ahead means my port rudder (and steps) may go under the dock where there are rocks and other hard stuff.

As I am doing this essentially single handed I find it a challenge.

Thanks.

Next visit I will take more pics. Not a lot of room as I am at the end of the canal and I estimate the canal at 60' but that floating dock is an L shape and continues up the other side effectively removing 10' or more. I will measure just so I "know".

Lots of fun banging around with an audience. :D

[artemidorus]

Yes, my fear using a line from the stb stern cleat and going ahead means my port rudder (and steps) may go under the dock where there are rocks and other hard stuff.

What about a quick dinghy trip with a kedge anchor when you wish to go out? - you could kedge yourself off the dock and then haul the anchor up in mid channel.

I wouldn't want to do that as a routine, but it might save some embarrassment on a bad day.

[jkd]

Thanks Talbot.

Much food for thought.

Yes, you are correct in assuming the wind from beam to 60deg forward. I was not clear.

Yes, my fear using a line from the stb stern cleat and going ahead means my port rudder (and steps) may go under the dock where there are rocks and other hard stuff.

As I am doing this essentially single handed I find it a challenge.

Thanks.

Next visit I will take more pics. Not a lot of room as I am at the end of the canal and I estimate the canal at 60' but that floating dock is an L shape and continues up the other side effectively removing 10' or more. I will measure just so I "know".

Lots of fun banging around with an audience. :D

Next question Jeff; can you just put the starboard side to the dock and then pivot on the bow while backing around stern to the wind?

John

[Talbot]

can you just put the starboard side to the dock and then pivot on the bow while backing around stern to the wind? John


What is the prevailing direction of the wind. Is it always from the direction you mention in the first post. In UK I would always wind the boat so that the wind below from forward of the beam, as that allowed the most comfortable living conditions.

[2MT]

looks to me like you could put a line on the stb hull fwd to that pile run her forward and out a bit then back down on it and use the line as a pivot ti swing her stern out. I think you could get her to actually go sideways till you cleared the dock and other boats then swing the stern around. It looks to me like you are going to need a hand on the dock no matter what. unless you bouy the bow line so you can just drop if off.

[therapy]

What about a quick dinghy trip with a kedge anchor when you wish to go out? - you could kedge yourself off the dock and then haul the anchor up in mid channel.

I wouldn't want to do that as a routine, but it might save some embarrassment on a bad day.

For that kedge I would just walk (or throw) a line to the other side of the canal. It is only 50-60 feet.

[therapy]

Next question Jeff; can you just put the starboard side to the dock and then pivot on the bow while backing around stern to the wind?

John

See the pic.

Stbd bow is where the wind was coming from.

I backed out sliding on the port hull till I was blown down to the floating dock. Then I backed out the stern a little and ran the bow into the dock and used forward to pivot on that point. Then I powered in reverse for a nearly complete circle to come back into the wind and head out. Perverse.

[therapy]

looks to me like you could put a line on the stb hull fwd to that pile run her forward and out a bit then back down on it and use the line as a pivot ti swing her stern out. I think you could get her to actually go sideways till you cleared the dock and other boats then swing the stern around. It looks to me like you are going to need a hand on the dock no matter what. unless you bouy the bow line so you can just drop if off.

I don't know.
Going forward I could not get even inches off the pilings. A line from stb bow I think would just compress me to the dock pilings.
Maybe just back out with that line? Don't know if port bow would clear.
Then I would have to run to the bow and cast off and return for the 360-in-reverse-trick before I was blown down to the floating dock or back to the dock with the pilings.
Remember, 34 ft of boat in 50 ft of canal. (I will measure)
I really don't know the best way.
I have done it twice now the way I described it earlier.
Gotta be a better way.

[2MT]

it looks to me like no matter what you are going to have that port bow running on the dock in a stiff wind. you are going to need at least two ways to get her off. as i am thinking about it with two motors i would back hard on the stb and put light thrust fwd on the port, looks like about 1 min would get the bow moving out then i would cut the stb to half thrust and bring the port to full (should keep your stern out from under that dock) as soon as you have thee three to six feet off the face i would set my thrust to take her out side ways. you should be at a bow pushing the wind attitude.(cocked with the bow further into the wind then the stern).
once you get 6 t0 10 feet you can throw the wheel to the port and put some power to swing your stern all the way out. your going to need your hand to take up lines as the bow swings. (doing it this way is going to move the bow around fast so your going to want to revers thrust about 1/3d of the way round) at some point you will see the stern start to swing fast and you are going to have to go full reverse and power it out.

i am just going on the picture and have not tried to get the boat off; if i was down in florida area i would love to give it a try.

[dmmbruce]

Can I offer my penny-worth.

If the breeze is not too strong, put a spring from a point on the dock forward to the cleat on the port bow, loop it there and back so you can let go easily. Lots of fenders at the port bow. Go ahead and spring the stern out and keep going until you are far enough round, i.e. more than 45 degrees. Go astern away from the dock and round as far as you need. You have much more control on a cat going astern (usually!).

If the breeze is stronger, don't be coy, use the kedge method, or rope across the canal in your case. Pull yourself over, get organised, turn her round if necessary, and then leave in control.

Either way, onlookers will be gratifyingly dissappointed. :D

Mike

[therapy]

it looks to me like no matter what you are going to have that port bow running on the dock in a stiff wind. you are going to need at least two ways to get her off. as i am thinking about it with two motors i would back hard on the stb and put light thrust fwd on the port, looks like about 1 min would get the bow moving out then i would cut the stb to half thrust and bring the port to full (should keep your stern out from under that dock) as soon as you have thee three to six feet off the face i would set my thrust to take her out side ways. you should be at a bow pushing the wind attitude.(cocked with the bow further into the wind then the stern).
once you get 6 t0 10 feet you can throw the wheel to the port and put some power to swing your stern all the way out. your going to need your hand to take up lines as the bow swings. (doing it this way is going to move the bow around fast so your going to want to revers thrust about 1/3d of the way round) at some point you will see the stern start to swing fast and you are going to have to go full reverse and power it out.

i am just going on the picture and have not tried to get the boat off; if i was down in florida area i would love to give it a try.

I only have one motor.

You are welcome to try as long as you bring a large basket of time and fiberglass repair stuff.
I will provide the beer. :D

[therapy]

Can I offer my penny-worth.

If the breeze is not too strong, put a spring from a point on the dock forward to the cleat on the port bow, loop it there and back so you can let go easily. Lots of fenders at the port bow. Go ahead and spring the stern out and keep going until you are far enough round, i.e. more than 45 degrees. Go astern away from the dock and round as far as you need. You have much more control on a cat going astern (usually!).

If the breeze is stronger, don't be coy, use the kedge method, or rope across the canal in your case. Pull yourself over, get organised, turn her round if necessary, and then leave in control.

Either way, onlookers will be gratifyingly dissappointed. :D

Mike

That's what I am looking for - dissapointment, theirs not mine.

Hmmm.

Haven't thought of a spring like that.

Now to keep those fenders from rolling away...........

Thanks.

[dmmbruce]

I assure you it works fine. The spring, allied with the engine thrust being well out from the dock in the middle of the boat causes her to "roll round" the curvature of the side. The fenders stay put as they are well compressed. The difficult one(s) are right at the stem of the bow where it may be better to put it horizontal.

The key thing that I forgot to say before is don't try to do it quickly. Take your time and it works. My boat has one central long-leg engine that is not steerable, and it works.

Try it first on a quiet day.

Mike

[2MT]

I only have one motor.

You are welcome to try as long as you bring a large basket of time and fiberglass repair stuff.
I will provide the beer. :D

I get down your way and you have a deal. I love figuring out the problems of boat and ship handling.

single screw can actually make it easier. you can put the stern hard to the dock with a waist line push the bow off shes big enough your still going to need 8 to ten feet off. if you can turn your thrust do the same deal as described; make sure you got plenty of bumpers. I dont tend to like taking a boat out in reverse. so the alternate would be to get a big old bouy ball or a yokahama (bunch of tires lashed together in a long roll and tied to the dock face.) and push the stern into the dock to pull the bow off. sounds to me like you need to address the lack of padding on that dock in the first place. it did run through my mind that tie-ing up with a med tie would serve you better. (med tie is stern to the dock) set it up right and you can use the steps in the hulls to just walk off the boat.

[therapy]

I assure you it works fine. The spring, allied with the engine thrust being well out from the dock in the middle of the boat causes her to "roll round" the curvature of the side. The fenders stay put as they are well compressed. The difficult one(s) are right at the stem of the bow where it may be better to put it horizontal.

The key thing that I forgot to say before is don't try to do it quickly. Take your time and it works. My boat has one central long-leg engine that is not steerable, and it works.

Try it first on a quiet day.

Mike

I'll look at it.
At high tide the deck is level with the dock.
At low tide the deck is 2ft lower than the dock.
I would have to pad a pile and pin the bow to that one point, otherwise the bow will go under the dock till the rails hit.

I need to take a bunch of pics for this I think......thousands of words etc.

[therapy]

I get down your way and you have a deal. I love figuring out the problems of boat and ship handling.

single screw can actually make it easier. you can put the stern hard to the dock with a waist line push the bow off shes big enough your still going to need 8 to ten feet off. if you can turn your thrust do the same deal as described; make sure you got plenty of bumpers. I dont tend to like taking a boat out in reverse. so the alternate would be to get a big old bouy ball or a yokahama (bunch of tires lashed together in a long roll and tied to the dock face.) and push the stern into the dock to pull the bow off. sounds to me like you need to address the lack of padding on that dock in the first place. it did run through my mind that tie-ing up with a med tie would serve you better. (med tie is stern to the dock) set it up right and you can use the steps in the hulls to just walk off the boat.

The stern will go under the dock and that is where the rocks are.

No med tie. That floating dock in the pic goes to the other side of the canal, turns 90 deg and then follows the canal. A big L. And if there are boats tied on it while visiting the bar that is there.........well.......it is even more interesting.

[therapy]

What I need to do is take some pics.
Maybe a short video.
I do not know how to get video from my camera to this forum.
That might be harder for me. :D

[jkd]

See the pic.

Stbd bow is where the wind was coming from.

.

OK, let me try this again.

Is there a reason why you need to dock with the stern towards the finger pier (as shown in the photo)? If you dock (next time) with the bows towards the finger pier the stern will be easier to work off the dock into the wind now coming 60 deg from the port quarter if that is the standard direction of the wind.

John

[therapy]

OK, let me try this again.

Is there a reason why you need to dock with the stern towards the finger pier (as shown in the photo)? If you dock (next time) with the bows towards the finger pier the stern will be easier to work off the dock into the wind now coming 60 deg from the port quarter if that is the standard direction of the wind.

John

Not really. I guess I do the turn when I dock so that when I leave I just push off the bow and take off.
The boat faces west in the pic and how I have the lines set up.
In the winter here most winds are cold front induced and as the front approaches the winds go SW and clock around clockwise for a few days (depending on how fast the front is moving) and end up as ENE or E for most of the time. Then the cycle to SE > S > SW for a day or two as the next front comes in.
So majority of wind is abaft the beam over time I guess.

I think for the first try I am going to use the line to the stb aft cleat and touch it forward. I can then just drop the line and pick it up after I get back, unless I can toss it to the dock.

We will see.

I appreciate it all though.
I really do.

Sorry for the total thread hijack.

[2MT]

The stern will go under the dock and that is where the rocks are.
No med tie. That floating dock in the pic goes to the other side of the canal, turns 90 deg and then follows the canal. A big L. And if there are boats tied on it while visiting the bar that is there.........well.......it is even more interesting.


thats where the yokohamas come in.

lol sounds like i would have to give it a run. A movie would be good not of you trying to get the boat off but just of that wind coming in. sounds like you got an interesting problem.

[2MT]

its not a thread hijack. its actually why i started the thread. these are the things folks need to know and mostly people don't talk about.

[jkd]

its not a thread hijack. its actually why i started the thread. these are the things folks need to know and mostly people don't talk about.

Indeed, it is a great mental exercise shifting between single fixed, single maneuverable and twin screw cats for this thread.:)

John

[ka8uet]

Wherever you put the lines, you can loop them around the cleat/piling on the dock, which lets you pull them into the boat as you leave. That's how I do it, and I singlehand my boat. I like having both ends of the dock likes aboard the boat. Solves a lot of problems, including those jokesters who like to release dock lines while people sleep!

[therapy]

Wherever you put the lines, you can loop them around the cleat/piling on the dock, which lets you pull them into the boat as you leave. That's how I do it, and I singlehand my boat. I like having both ends of the dock likes aboard the boat. Solves a lot of problems, including those jokesters who like to release dock lines while people sleep!

Ahah!
I wonder if I would have thought of that eventually.
Thanks.

If I caught somone doing that to me I would go to jail for sure!

[Sandy Daugherty]

I have had a Stiletto 30 with a non-steering motor smack in the middle of the boat, even with the centerboards, a Simpson Wildwind with a single aft mounted steerable Honda 50, and two PDQs with outboards in wells between the hulls but still 6 feet apart. I have also far more experience involuntarily maneuvering the PDQs on one engine than anyone should ever have to endure.

The stiletto was the most challenging. The wind, or a mere zephyr, was in complete control until the boat was moving fast enough for the high aspect ratio rudders and boards to take effect. That meant screaming in or out of a slip in all conditions then slamming the elderly Johnson 2-stoke into reverse with a fervent prayer, frequently unfulfilled. No pretty, but it always drew an audience.

The Simpson handled exactly the same as any of the single engine Prouts or Geminis I've sailed. More on the technique later.

The PDQs, providing the engines had not just fed on any one of several available dangling ropes, are a delight to maneuver. Just twiddling with the shifters lets me dance like I never could in shoes. In the next parade of lights I might be doing smooth pirouettes around the course. Not hard.

With the center outboard, I would get off Therapy's dock like this:

Tie the biggest fender to the dock at the port bow. Put the boards down. Take a line from the cockpit to a slip knot on the port bow cleat, down the inboard side of the port hull, around and out to the dock in a loop that came back the same way to tie within reach of the helm. This should be a light floating line. long enough to reach from the cockpit to the dock and back. The slip knot can be untied by pulling the start of the line, and after casting off the other end the whole thing can be retrieved.
Turn the wheel all the way to the right and slowly reverse. The engine will be pulling the boat back and the stern to the right. Continue to swing the stern out until you feel you have enough of an angle (try 45 degrees at first, then let go of the bitter end of the line and turn the wheel all the way in the opposite direction. The boat will continue to swing stern out and begin backing away. The wind will catch the superstructure and mast, increasing the rate of rotation, but the boat will be moving away fro the dock enough that the starboard bow won't hit. Pull the other end of the line to free the slip knot, and retrieve the whole line back to the cockpit before moving forward. back out to an area large enough to turn around. don't use any more power than necessary, and you won't develop any more movement in a particular direction than you can recover from.

I still have that line, with a dog chew toy tied to one end, out of 1/4" polypropylene ski rope. I can heave it fairly accurately about 60 feet if it's neatly coiled. I now use it as a passing line when we form a circle raft in S.O.S.

Now let me tell you about maneuvering a twin engine cat on one engine. Turn off the volume if you are sensitive to foul language.

Or no, maybe later, when I'm calmer....

[therapy]

I




With the center outboard, I would get off Therapy's dock like this:

Tie the biggest fender to the dock at the port bow. Put the boards down. Take a line from the cockpit to a slip knot on the port bow cleat, down the inboard side of the port hull, around and out to the dock in a loop that came back the same way to tie within reach of the helm. This should be a light floating line. long enough to reach from the cockpit to the dock and back. The slip knot can be untied by pulling the start of the line, and after casting off the other end the whole thing can be retrieved.
Turn the wheel all the way to the right and slowly reverse. The engine will be pulling the boat back and the stern to the right. Continue to swing the stern out until you feel you have enough of an angle (try 45 degrees at first, then let go of the bitter end of the line and turn the wheel all the way in the opposite direction. The boat will continue to swing stern out and begin backing away. The wind will catch the superstructure and mast, increasing the rate of rotation, but the boat will be moving away fro the dock enough that the starboard bow won't hit. Pull the other end of the line to free the slip knot, and retrieve the whole line back to the cockpit before moving forward. back out to an area large enough to turn around. don't use any more power than necessary, and you won't develop any more movement in a particular direction than you can recover from.


....

I know this is written well but I don't understand it - tie to the bow, bring it inside the stanchions (inboard) to stern cleat, to dock, and back to cockpit.
Bring stern out first, got it, what is the line going to do that is from the cleat to the dock.
And the part about bringing in the line before moving forward - not enough time for me. In 5 seconds the wind has made a decision on which way the boat is going to go. In 10 it has begun to move. in 20 it is against the dock or the floating dock.

It is probably me but I don't get it.

Pics in my next post.

[therapy]

Here is the dock at low tide. One pic shows how close the rock is to the piling. Can't go in there.

Plus, note that it angles out from where the rock is cut. Hard to see through the water though.

[therapy]

The boat at the dock.

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1408&stc=1&d=1258933054

The views of the area to manuever.

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1409&stc=1&d=1258933054

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1411&stc=1&d=1258933054

Sometimes there are boats at the floating dock (L shaped). I measured it (roughly) to be 49 feet.


From further down the canal.

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1410&stc=1&d=1258933054


PS: I don't know how to get the picture to be where I want it to be. I see it all the time but I don't know how to do it. PIA.

[2MT]

easy answer is to take the out board off the dingy and put it on the big boat where it will do you some good. I now see what the problem is and its sticky.

you need to put carpet or something on those pilings so you can push off them. your going to have to work your way out if you got a boat in front of and behind you. this is where the spring lines come in. you are going to have to put the bow against that pile to get the stern off the dock. as soon as you can get 5 feet of space in the stern have your hand let out some slack on your spring line so you can keep the stern swinging out. dont get the bows under the dock just keep adjusting so the bow keeps on the face of that pile. when you clear the boat aft of you; with the bow on the pile give it a quick touch of forward thrust( you will be able to feel it when its enough) and your stern should pick up speed in the swing.let it swing and put her into reverse to where you want to be remember the rudders need to be opposite of how you would steer going forward. let off the spring line and draw it in.

try it a couple times i am sure you will pick it up quick.
Any how thats my two cents.

[dmmbruce]

The more I read this interesting set of views, the more I think that there are different meanings for some of the terms used from this side of the Atlantic or that.

To me, a spring is a line that goes from well aft on land to the bow cleat, or from well forward on land to the stern cleat. So on the last post, I certainly would not be letting out some spring as the boat pivots, that would make no sense in my terminology. I hope this idea helps your understanding of our very different posts.

Incidentally, thanks for pics, nice boat, nice place.

If you want to lean on the piles so as to avoid going under them or to be able to spring against them, use a 'builder's plank', either hung permanently from the side of the dock, or from your stanchions. (hope builder's plank is understood your end, there are double meanings!!! I mean the sort of thing you walk on on scaffolding).

With that in mind, my original post trying to explain springing out may make more sense, and be easier to do.

Cheers, good luck.

Mike

[2MT]

The more I read this interesting set of views, the more I think that there are different meanings for some of the terms used from this side of the Atlantic or that.

To me, a spring is a line that goes from well aft on land to the bow cleat, or from well forward on land to the stern cleat. So on the last post, I certainly would not be letting out some spring as the boat pivots, that would make no sense in my terminology. I hope this idea helps your understanding of our very different posts.

Incidentally, thanks for pics, nice boat, nice place.

If you want to lean on the piles so as to avoid going under them or to be able to spring against them, use a 'builder's plank', either hung permanently from the side of the dock, or from your stanchions. (hope builder's plank is understood your end, there are double meanings!!! I mean the sort of thing you walk on on scaffolding).

With that in mind, my original post trying to explain springing out may make more sense, and be easier to do.

Cheers, good luck.

Mike

thats exactly right about the springs. you use the angle to help you off the dock. letting out a little spring allows you to keep the bow in one place as the stern moves out. if you shorten the line the effect is to push the bow forward of the pile. if you use a line from the bow to the pile you can put it into a bind and snap it (not fun). you also dont have any surge control with a short line. it cannot stretch and relax absorbing the shock of waves or wind. I like the built in shock absorber and the ability to control where the bow will be on the dock. I use my lines like leavers to allow be to do all kinds of things with my boat that i cannot do with power alone.

[dmmbruce]

2MT,
Do you use builders planks, or equivalent, in that situation?

Mike

[2MT]

2MT,
Do you use builders planks, or equivalent, in that situation?

Mike

If i have the option to place a semi permanent structure yes i would. hanging them off the boat is good if you have room to stow then when not in use. its a good option that few folks know about. On the big ships/boats i once used my gang way just as you suggest; these days however the gangway has to be made from steel or aluminum and so is no longer an easy option.

In the pictures it shows a poured cement pad for the dock and i would be asking to get a plank wall all the way down so no boats could get damaged by running into it. Personally i would do it any way the safety of my 300.000 dollar boat compared to the cost of a few twenty foot planks would make it a no brainer.

[Sandy Daugherty]

And I really agonised over the wording! Let me try another description:

In reverse, with the motor turned as far to one side as possible, it is pulling the boat back and sideways, just as if someone was pulling on a rope from the direction the prop is pointed. If the boat is tied in such a manner that it pivots at the tip of the bow, no damage occurs from the bow shifting forward or backward to catch the dosk or the wall. If there is a longish fender between the bow and the dock, a single line from the bow cleat to the forward end of the dock will do it. It makes a simple hinge point.

While (or whilst) the Gemini is fairly light and has a normal amount of windage, it still has mass, and the reversing engine to keep it from being blown back to the dock. If not, then continue reversing out until the cat is perpendicular to the dock; release the line, and pull it in as the boat reverses away. Back out up wind until you have room and steerage to turn into the wind.

If the prevailing wind creates this situation, tie up pointed in the opposite direction, then you can put it in reverse with just enough power to hold your position along the dock; cast off all lines and reverse out until you have room.

If the winds are too high, tie it up, shut it down, and brew up. (That means put the kettle on for a nice cup of tea. In the US we would probably just pop a brewski.)

The spider-web approach I talked about was only necesssary because of a peculiarity at my dock. For you a short loop from the bow to the piling or dock cleat could do the trick.

Clarity was my middle name but they made me change it.

[therapy]

The more I read this interesting set of views, the more I think that there are different meanings for some of the terms used from this side of the Atlantic or that.

To me, a spring is a line that goes from well aft on land to the bow cleat, or from well forward on land to the stern cleat. So on the last post, I certainly would not be letting out some spring as the boat pivots, that would make no sense in my terminology. I hope this idea helps your understanding of our very different posts.

Incidentally, thanks for pics, nice boat, nice place.

If you want to lean on the piles so as to avoid going under them or to be able to spring against them, use a 'builder's plank', either hung permanently from the side of the dock, or from your stanchions. (hope builder's plank is understood your end, there are double meanings!!! I mean the sort of thing you walk on on scaffolding).

With that in mind, my original post trying to explain springing out may make more sense, and be easier to do.

Cheers, good luck.

Mike

You are not kidding about how I cannot understand what some are saying.

For the normal docking I have two 2X6X 6 foot "builders planks". We call them
"two by sixes". They hang off the stanchion bases against two (each) fenders (the cylindrical long bumpers) that lie against the hull. These boards are what contacts the pilings - wood on wood. The dock lines are set up so that at all tides the boards stay against the pilings.

Whew!

It would be a lot of fun (and expense depending on how much glass work and other repairs would be needed ;)) if all could meet at the same time to try out some of these things.

Whew!

[therapy]

thats exactly right about the springs. you use the angle to help you off the dock. letting out a little spring allows you to keep the bow in one place as the stern moves out. if you shorten the line the effect is to push the bow forward of the pile. if you use a line from the bow to the pile you can put it into a bind and snap it (not fun). you also dont have any surge control with a short line. it cannot stretch and relax absorbing the shock of waves or wind. I like the built in shock absorber and the ability to control where the bow will be on the dock. I use my lines like leavers to allow be to do all kinds of things with my boat that i cannot do with power alone.

Dang!

I need another spring. The one I have is not long enough to go from the stern cleat, around the pile and back to some place and then to the cockpit.

Not to mention that when I had the boat away from the dock and started retrieving the 60+ feet of line I would be pushed out of control before I got it all in.

That is if it does not jam between the dock planks and the pile somewhere.

Whew!

[therapy]

And I really agonised over the wording! Let me try another description:

I figured that and apologize for not getting it through my thick skull.

In reverse, with the motor turned as far to one side as possible, it is pulling the boat back and sideways, just as if someone was pulling on a rope from the direction the prop is pointed. If the boat is tied in such a manner that it pivots at the tip of the bow, no damage occurs from the bow shifting forward or backward to catch the dosk or the wall. If there is a longish fender between the bow and the dock, a single line from the bow cleat to the forward end of the dock will do it. It makes a simple hinge point.
I understand the hinge point. I will have to look to see how I could possibly tie it tight enough to keep the bow on the pile. Either side of the pile by a few inches it will contact the rock (low tide) or the dock planks (high tide).

While (or whilst) the Gemini is fairly light and has a normal amount of windage, it still has mass, and the reversing engine to keep it from being blown back to the dock. If not, then continue reversing out until the cat is perpendicular to the dock; release the line, and pull it in as the boat reverses away. Back out up wind until you have room and steerage to turn into the wind.
I will have to have a knot I don't know about yet to do this from the cockpit. There is not enough time to get to the bow, untie, retrive, and return before I would be out of control again.

If the prevailing wind creates this situation, tie up pointed in the opposite direction, then you can put it in reverse with just enough power to hold your position along the dock; cast off all lines and reverse out until you have room.
That will not help me. I am now a sailor and as such, the wind will invariably be from a foul direction. :rolleyes: I talked to Murphy and he agrees. :p

If the winds are too high, tie it up, shut it down, and brew up. (That means put the kettle on for a nice cup of tea. In the US we would probably just pop a brewski.) Yep. Brewski. And tell the wife, "Sorry honey, no can do. We will just have to ask our friends to go back home. Maybe another day". :eek:

The spider-web approach I talked about was only necessary because of a peculiarity at my dock. For you a short loop from the bow to the piling or dock cleat could do the trick.

Clarity was my middle name but they made me change it.

Notes in quoted post.

[2MT]

Dang!

I need another spring. The one I have is not long enough to go from the stern cleat, around the pile and back to some place and then to the cockpit.

Not to mention that when I had the boat away from the dock and started retrieving the 60+ feet of line I would be pushed out of control before I got it all in.

That is if it does not jam between the dock planks and the pile somewhere.

Whew!

so you dont want an answer to your question. you asked and you are getting answers from experienced folks on how to do it. nothing comes without a price but all of them seem to be more than you want to pay.

I am done with you.

[therapy]

I am done with you.

Well, that is OK. Sorry I upset you with all the what-ifs in the advise. I still don't have any idea in my head how to keep the bow on a round pile while powering forward or reverse.

I do know how long it takes me to go from cockpit to bow and back.

Longer than it takes to have the wind catch the boat again.

One of the key ingredients I am using to analyse all the good advice.

Thanks all.

[2MT]

it isnt upset the advice is beginning to repeat itself.
You have been given every way to do what you asked about that i can think of. A few that would never occur to me. 90% of them will work depending on the conditions. no one can give you any more help. you just need to pick one from the list to match the conditions at the time.

For that no one can help you, and i wont even try.


Like i said I'll bring the epoxy and cloth with me if i am to head for Florida and we will see how well my boat handling skills work in your situation.

I re read my post and i should have put some spacing in to help the meaning. but i stand by it you now must look at the price of each method.

[therapy]

I do over analyze things.

Keeps me from breaking so much stuff I see others break or wear out.

So far I like the stern cleat to the pile, reverse to pull the bow out (have done it before in a mono) IF I can keep the rudder from the rock.

Second is the short bow line and reversing the other way (stern toward the wind, away from the dock) IF I can figure out how to let it go and return quickly enough.

Easy Peasy. :p:D

Thanks again all.

And a thought about the original questions that occurred to me.

On a mono all the things sticking down are near the center of the boat so where ever (except when grounding) one is to bump the boat, nothing underneath is "that close".

On a cat those things sticking down (and all the hull sides of course) are much closer to what is being bumped.

On a Gemini with the rudder half way up (necessitated by depth at my dock) it sticks out past everything. I consider this a "delicate" part and don't want to consider it even touching anything solid.

Just sort of what came to my mind.

PS. Ian. If you want to take all this crap about my boat and move it to another place called "newbie over analyzes leaving dock" or some such, feel free.

[SteveH]

Fit a bow thruster - it will make your life a lot less stressful. I know from experience!

[Sandy Daugherty]

Another thought, therapy. with the sails down and the motor running, you don't need the rudders down! And you can keep the centerboards up too, they just help with boat control and aren't really necessary.

I think we've explored the possibilities and given you the tricks. You are understandably frustrated, and probably regret the choice of slips, but it's just time to get out and practice maneuvering under power. Do get yourself a long floating throwing line, and always remember, easy does it!

[ireaney]

PS. Ian. If you want to take all this crap about my boat and move it to another place called "newbie over analyzes leaving dock" or some such, feel free.

Jeff
No I don't want to move this, as I have found it very interesting as I am sure have many others, there are many factors involved with your slip and then with wind etc, it is good to hear all the different suggestions as I am sure we may all be in a similar situation one day or have been, and those who have read this thread will hopefully remember the suggestions, we can always and should always be learning. :)

I don't have your slip problems as I have a swinging mooring which has a maximum tidal range of about 3.8 metres, but when you get a bit of a wind over tide it can be quite exciting, but no rocks just a sandy bottom ( I will wait for the retorts on this one) :rolleyes:

[dmmbruce]

I won't ask how you get the sand off your bottom Ian. :p

Mike

[therapy]

I think we've explored the possibilities and given you the tricks. You are understandably frustrated, and probably regret the choice of slips, but it's just time to get out and practice maneuvering under power. Do get yourself a long floating throwing line, and always remember, easy does it!

Yep.

Gonna try:

So far I like the stern cleat to the pile, reverse to pull the bow out (have done it before in a mono) IF I can keep the rudder from the rock.

Second is the short bow line and reversing the other way (stern toward the wind, away from the dock) IF I can figure out how to let it go and return quickly enough.

[therapy]

maximum tidal range of about 3.8 metres,


Having sailed only in Florida I have no idea about those ranges of tides.

We have 1-3 feet in my area.

How in the world do boats tie up to docks?

[ireaney]

Having sailed only in Florida I have no idea about those ranges of tides.

We have 1-3 feet in my area.

How in the world do boats tie up to docks?

We use big bungee cords, so that they stretch as the tide goes out and retract when the tide comes in, simple. :)

[therapy]

We use big bungee cords, so that they stretch as the tide goes out and retract when the tide comes in, simple. :)

Pics for proof.

[ireaney]

Pics for proof.

Excuse me Jeff, but are you doubting my integrity and calling me a liar :D

I will see what I can do ;)

[ireaney]

Jeff
Can't find one immediately that is the length we would use but here is a shorter version.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9193939

[therapy]

Jeff
Can't find one immediately that is the length we would use but here is a shorter version.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9193939

Amazing!

[ireaney]

Amazing!

Sorry Jeff :( it was a bit of a wind up ;) couldn't resist the opportunity:D, you know me and you were in fact doubting me and my statement, but unluckily for you I found something that could be feasible :rolleyes: so you were right to doubt my integrity and I was lying:o

Actually we don't, but I did amaze myself to find such a thing, this would probably work for very light boats with sod all tides, but for a half decent size boat with tides, winds and the possibility of rafting up, it would probably not work at all as the different factors would need different bungee strengths and very thick bungees:(.

I have actually found this one as well but not for docking, ideal for lakes or beaches where no tide. http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/62994-anchor-buddy-mooring-line-yellow-from-greenfield-products.html

You just leave enough length in all your lines to allow for the drop, as 1 line (ie the springs etc) will counteract any excessive movement in the other:).

[therapy]

Well, ya got me.

[Talbot]

Securing a boat alongside when there is a large drop in tide can be a problem. For example in Jersey (Channel Islands) a drop of up to 36ft is normal.

Obviously if there is a convenient pontoon, then all is well. But what do you do if you have to secure to the wall.

The first rule is to use very long lines. The second rule is to monitor from a high tide to a low tide. Most boats will not hang unsupported from a cleat!

Remember as well, if you are ever where there is such a large tidal range, there will also be a very fast tidal current!