size it!

[Rickardrr]

Hello, all multi-hulls!
Everyone has different opinions so it just fun to hear yours!! What size catamaran is optimal when it comes to costs (purchase, maintenance and port fee) if you also want to live on board and cross the ocean! We all maybe wants a big and safe boat, but there is a breaking point where money passes to sensible levels!
I believe in a boat around 40ft would suit me( four people no money:)), but if I could afford it would like to have more like a 45ft ...
what would you choose? and why? pros cons..

[3Psuite]

We are building a 37ft boat, plenty of room for:

8 for a week to 10day cruise
6 a long trip say of 3-4 weeks
4 extended cruising, long sea crossings and being together for 2 or 3 months at a time.
2 alone or plus kids live aboard potential

There is a big jump in the price of hardware at around the 40ft size boat, just take a look at winch and windlass prices vs sizes. I would also think that if you at 45ft with anything other than a very modest rig you have to start using power winches etc

best of luck with your plans

Terence

[Sandy Daugherty]

The only reason I would have for a bigger boat would be to bridge rough water. The difference in the ride comfort from a 4' longer waterline is significant. I would be compromising the economy and ease of handling I now enjoy and can barely afford. More sail area means heavier loads hoisting and sheeting, bigger winches, perhaps even electric, and that would completely torpedo the budget, for maintenance as well as initial purchase. Adding two feet to the beam would mean good bye nice slip, so long nice little haul-out place, and hello big diesels. Anchors and chain would double in price, a windlass would become a necessity, and all the nice goodies I would then have room for would beckon endlessly.

The adage "go smaller, go sooner" is too true.

Besides; nobody ever buys his last boat first unless it was a terrible mistake. [be sure and quote me, folks!]

[cchesley]

40' is about right. 45' starts to really get into a much bigger boat. It's a cube thing. HOWEVER... the real way to do it is to have longer hulls but not a bigger boat! Unfortunately, that isn't going to be the description of a mass produced, production multihull. For me, another 5-7 feet loa wouldn't make the boat appreciably bigger IF the displacement only increased a 1000# lbs or so and the accommodations, tankage, engines, beam and rig stayed the same.

Take the Manta 38, er 40, uh, 42 as an example. The boat (presumably, owners chime in here) got better but really didn't get 'bigger' just longer. It's a tough sell to a newby boat buyer that thinks he's buying a 45' (or whatever) boat but it doesn't have much 'room' in it. Personally, in the scheme of things even the extra 5-7 or more feet of loa for berthage is a small part of the boat's cost and expenses.

Oh, for you builders out there, when and if you consider doing the boat stretching thing, don't make it LOOK like you stretched it. Take the time to make it really look right. Thanks.

[cchesley]

PS- Seawind did it right with their XL 1000. Thank you.

[ka8uet]

Since I don't intend to cross oceans, and I do intend to singlehand, I want ~30 foot boat. My intent is to live aboard and join the snowbirds on the ICW. I need something I can manage alone, with room for me and the menagerie, and the occasional visiting grandchild.

[searenitysail]

When I began to aggressively look for a used catamaran, I contacted several brokers. I thought I had made it clear what I was looking for, but I kept getting suggestions for larger, more expensive, boats. I finally wrote down the following and gave it to the brokers:

I may be dreaming, but…

what I would like in a catamaran:




A boat that I can afford to buy and have at my disposal in my home cruising waters, to sail whenever I want—not just on a vacation.
It must have a price that I can afford— I am not interested in committing any more money than that for a recreational pursuit. I am also not interested in placing a boat in charter to pay for it, because either I will have to travel to use it, not be able to use it whenever I want, or both.
It must have a galley-up configuration so that you are always part of "the action." (I crewed 4 monohull deliveries from Bermuda to NY and going "down below" to fix something to eat is not one of my favorite past times.) In addition, most “cruising” time is spent at anchor, so the galley becomes part of the living area as well.
It must be small enough for Great South Bay, on Long Island.
It must have a narrow enough beam to find docking and hauling in my local area, as mooring fields are not permitted in my area.
It must be large and seaworthy enough to cruise out to Block Island, up to New England and, eventually, down to Florida and across to the Bahamas. It does not need to have the ability to cross oceans.
It must be roomy enough to live on for periods of time.
It would be nice to have ALL lines lead to the helm for ease of single-handed sailing, but not required.
It should not have daggerboards—just one more thing to worry about when sailing (especially shorthanded), despite this meaning I might be giving up some performance.
I prefer diesel engines over outboards. (I’m not so resolute about this anymore!)
My ideal boat is the Morrelli & Melvin designed Jeanneau-Lagoon 35CCC; I have dreamed of owning this model for quite some time. I know only 11 were produced, so it may be hard to acquire one.
My second choice is the Fountaine Pajot Tobago 35 Twin (2-cabin, 2-head). I know there are not that many on the market, and it is a matter of being in the right place at the right time. Tobago 35 3-cabin model is also acceptable, but all must be 1995 or newer (don’t want that fabric headliner in the salon area).
Something in the 35’-38’ range would be considered (Lagoon 37, Antigua 37, Athena 38, etc. but must be galley up, in decent shape and within the budget I have set for myself.
I will not buy something just to own a boat, and I am willing to wait for what I am looking for.
PS--The Victory 35 interests me, but I am unsure about handling of the single leg drive and the solid foredeck. The Gemini 105 and TomCat 9.7 are not really options I would consider—the wife and I spent almost 2 hours on each of them at Annapolis in 2006. (Wife is NOT a fan of galley down configuration, which is why I hesitate to consider the PDQ 32, as well!)


I did lose some interest from the brokers--I know another thread could certainly start up again regarding brokers. I didn't use a broker though both Brent Herman from Catamaran Company and Peter Wiersema from Moorings spent a lot of time communicating with me. Luckily, I finally found the boat I wanted by taking out a "Sailboat Wanted" advertisement.

I looked at several boats, and even paid for three marine surveys before I bought our boat. After a year, we couldn't be any happier with our choice and have no doubts that it was the right one.

One suggestion I can make regarding buying a catamaran is, don't have such big dreams that you can't ever realize them.

Good luck finding what works for you.

Marshall

[Rickardrr]

Thank you all for your thought!
its realy easy to be caught up in bigger,bigger and bigger,
my dream start 15 years ago about a bruce roberts 34.5 ft mono:)
and a jump from that to a 45ft Multi is huge!!!

[ka8uet]

I first began thinking about a cat back when I was 50. Went on a lot of them at Annapolis that year, sailed one down in Florida the following Feb., wish I had bought her then, while I was still working! Now, still want the same boat, despite looking at quite a few others. She is perfect for my purposes. 17 years later, I could have been enjoying her all this time! However, at the time had only had my 23' mono for about 5 years. Ah, hindsight!

[44C]

40' is about right. 45' starts to really get into a much bigger boat. It's a cube thing. HOWEVER... the real way to do it is to have longer hulls but not a bigger boat! Unfortunately, that isn't going to be the description of a mass produced, production multihull. For me, another 5-7 feet loa wouldn't make the boat appreciably bigger IF the displacement only increased a 1000# lbs or so and the accommodations, tankage, engines, beam and rig stayed the same.

Take the Manta 38, er 40, uh, 42 as an example. The boat (presumably, owners chime in here) got better but really didn't get 'bigger' just longer. It's a tough sell to a newby boat buyer that thinks he's buying a 45' (or whatever) boat but it doesn't have much 'room' in it. Personally, in the scheme of things even the extra 5-7 or more feet of loa for berthage is a small part of the boat's cost and expenses.

Oh, for you builders out there, when and if you consider doing the boat stretching thing, don't make it LOOK like you stretched it. Take the time to make it really look right. Thanks.

Exactly right. A 40 foot Lagoon is a huge boat. A 40 foot Oram is much smaller. My 44 wouldn't have anywhere near the volume, or carrying capacity of a 40 foot Lagoon. Probably not even a 36 foot one. But the Lagoon won't have the sailing ability.

[Bubba]

Is there a breaking point there safety verses sailing ability comes into play ?

I like the Lagoon 400 because I don,t bang my head EVERYWHERE :mad: and it has 4 bulkheads in each hull for safety if hitting a whale or floatsome in the open ocean :D. After my boat salesman's recently adventure :( this October down the west coast of the US where a new 50 ft J boat they were sailing along with got hit and sank by a whale in the middle of the night, it tore off the rudder and a 2 ft hole in the bottom. It had no sepirate bulkheads to keep it afloat and COMPLETELY SANK IN 20 MIN, all 5 folks got in the life raft with little more than the ERBI locater and was picked up at dawn.

As far as sailing I here the Lagoon 400 or 440 does not point into the wind as good as other cat's, Does anyone persionally have experence on one? What is the closets to the wind can you sail effectiavly?

[searenitysail]

As far as sailing I here the Lagoon 400 or 440 does not point into the wind as good as other cat's, Does anyone persionally have experence on one? What is the closets to the wind can you sail effectiavly?

Check out http://www.twixter.us/ Rob and Cathy have a 2006 Lagoon 440 and have sailed it extensively in Europe since taking delivery of the boat at the factory.

You might also get some replies if you join the Lagoon Owners group on Yahoo. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lagooncatowners/

Marshall

[smj]

The only reason I would have for a bigger boat would be to bridge rough water. The difference in the ride comfort from a 4' longer waterline is significant. I would be compromising the economy and ease of handling I now enjoy and can barely afford. More sail area means heavier loads hoisting and sheeting, bigger winches, perhaps even electric, and that would completely torpedo the budget, for maintenance as well as initial purchase. Adding two feet to the beam would mean good bye nice slip, so long nice little haul-out place, and hello big diesels. Anchors and chain would double in price, a windlass would become a necessity, and all the nice goodies I would then have room for would beckon endlessly.

The adage "go smaller, go sooner" is too true.

Besides; nobody ever buys his last boat first unless it was a terrible mistake. [be sure and quote me, folks!]

Sandy, In my opinion you hit the nail on the head. Having owned cats from 43'
to 32' we have found we enjoy the smaller boats more. We sail more often as the sails are easier to handle, and don't miss the space of the 43' as we only used one hull and the bridgedeck cabin. We do miss the motion of the larger boat but our pocketbook is alot happier without it. Now the fact we own 4 hulls at this time is another story.

[Sandy Daugherty]

Galley up is just not possible in a sub 40' cat. If it shares the bridge deck with a table that seats 6, it's been squeezed too much to leave enough counter space for food prep. The cook ends up wasting a lot of time shifting stuff around. A galley down offers lots of counter space, with storage, and the cook can still participate in bridge deck conversations it the space above the dinette seats is left open. The downside of Galley down for me is that foot traffic through to accommodations either fore or aft is awkward.

I think its better to have one spacious head rather than two (or four) phone-booths, and two or four sets of plumbing to deal with. Four adults can do nicely with a single head.

Deisel-philia is an acquired taste, coming largely from the ponderous pronouncements of the rigidly misinformed. Based on real accident data, gasoline outboards are no more dangerous than gasoline cars, which are no more dangerous than diesel cars. I don't think there was ever a time that gasoline inboards lived up to this baseless bias, and remember, I had the real numbers! The preponderance of diesels in the power range we are concerned with is simply a matter of there being a wider selection available, and that is probably a result of the original unjustified gasophobia. The early Greys, Chris's and even the lowly automic fours are very reliable engines, very easy to work on, and didn't cost near as much as diesels. I hope that the demonstrated superiority of modern outboards will lead to prospective buyers making choices on the basis of objective fact; it might bring the price of those exalted diesels down a bit! Today there are some marvelous industrial gasoline engines from Honda, Mitsubishi, and others that are available at breath-taking low prices, that a mere mortal can pick up and carry.

[smj]

Our Cherokee 35 had a great galley up, probably not the norm though.

[mikereed100]

The only reason I would have for a bigger boat would be to bridge rough water. The difference in the ride comfort from a 4' longer waterline is significant. I would be compromising the economy and ease of handling I now enjoy and can barely afford. More sail area means heavier loads hoisting and sheeting, bigger winches, perhaps even electric, and that would completely torpedo the budget, for maintenance as well as initial purchase. Adding two feet to the beam would mean good bye nice slip, so long nice little haul-out place, and hello big diesels. Anchors and chain would double in price, a windlass would become a necessity, and all the nice goodies I would then have room for would beckon endlessly.

The adage "go smaller, go sooner" is too true.

Besides; nobody ever buys his last boat first unless it was a terrible mistake. [be sure and quote me, folks!]

What he said. A turnbuckle for 12mm wire will run around $150. The same for 14mm wire is closer to $600. Ask me how I know this. Prices go up exponentially along with boat size. When I went looking for a cat I was looking for something around 40' but the only one I could afford was 46'. In retrospect I would have been better off waiting for a 40' I could afford as 46' is way more space than I need. Does have a nice galley-up though!

Mike

[paulrack]

When looking at size you also need top look at waterline length and actual size. many of the advertised lengths are not necessarily the actual lengths. Before I decided on my boat I was looking at a 44ft boat that was 44ft long but had a shorter waterline length than my 40ft boat and is actually smaller in useable size! I went for a 40ft size asI saw it as the optimal balance.

[searenitysail]

Galley up is just not possible in a sub 40' cat. If it shares the bridge deck with a table that seats 6, it's been squeezed too much to leave enough counter space for food prep. The cook ends up wasting a lot of time shifting stuff around.

Sandy,
Surely you are just as happy with your galley down as I am with my galley up, but I think if you take a look at my boat you would have to reconsider that comment. We have plenty of space and never waste time "shifting stuff around." And this is in a boat with only 15'9" beam! I'd still rather be "up"!

Marshall

[scotte]

Galley up is definitely possible in an <40' boat with the right design, but it will come with tradeoffs. One of the most impressive internal designs, is the Victory 35. Galley Up with a nice balance of usable salon space. But (here's where the italics come in), the design isn't a good offshore/blue water boat. I know of one which had internal bulkhead damage from a Pacific Coast ocean wave.

The trade-off seems to be largely in deck and cockpit space. On our Privilege 39, the galley down puts our nav station adjacent to the salon with a full-sized chart desk and gives a HUGE cockpit with plenty of flat decks. To me, that made it the right decision for us.

As with all things, there's no ONE answer. Different things are more important to different people, and you really have to take a look at a few boats, and spend some time inside, to decide what will work for you!

[Bubba]

Does anyone here have to crall over there significant other to get out of bed to check the boat and plumbing several times a night? I like the wider hulls with a bed with enough room on each side to get out of bed so that you don't have to wake your mate up at night checking things. I think this may mean a slower boat ? What do you think? We are looking at a full time liveaboard not a weekend racer.

[BigCat]

Does anyone here have to crall over there significant other to get out of bed to check the boat and plumbing several times a night? I like the wider hulls with a bed with enough room on each side to get out of bed so that you don't have to wake your mate up at night checking things. I think this may mean a slower boat ? What do you think? We are looking at a full time liveaboard not a weekend racer.

Hi, Bubba - It's the beam at the waterline that affects the boat speed. You can get a narrow waterline beam and a wider beam to get berth width by flaring out the topsides (technically, flam,) or by putting in a 'knuckle.' Wharrams, Kellsalls, and my designs feature lots of flam - Shuttleworth designs are examples of 'knuckle.' Most catamarans are slab sided, however. I agree that a berth that requires crawling over your significant other to exit is very inconvenient.

As for minimum size, many designers feel that 40' loa is the minimum for safety offshore in catamarans. I think that not only the math, but the track record offshore validates this idea.

[paulrack]

The flairs on the Hulls make a big difference. I have commisioned a new Phil Southwell designed catamaran. If you look in the hulls and imagine them without the flair there is a huge reduction in space. I guess a lot of boats also stay slab sided as they are older designs, or space is not an important consideration or it is two expensive to build them with the knuckle as I am sure it would add a lot of complexity to building the moulds. I reckon you are getting 50ft space in the hulls for 40ft boat in my case, but without the drag if you tried to achieve the same space in the same length without the knuckle.

[Sandy Daugherty]

I stand corrected, Marshall. That is a very useable arrangement! So much for conventional knowlege!:p

[BigCat]

The flairs on the Hulls make a big difference. I have commisioned a new Phil Southwell designed catamaran. If you look in the hulls and imagine them without the flair there is a huge reduction in space. I guess a lot of boats also stay slab sided as they are older designs, or space is not an important consideration or it is two expensive to build them with the knuckle as I am sure it would add a lot of complexity to building the moulds. I reckon you are getting 50ft space in the hulls for 40ft boat in my case, but without the drag if you tried to achieve the same space in the same length without the knuckle.

http://bigcatcatamarans.com/FLAM.jpg

The area above the knuckle can be wider. But if so, it's just one more protrusion for waves to smack.

[3Psuite]

Hei Rickardrr.

Here is a link to a blogg (http://wendera.wordpress.com/) of a family of 4 living aboard/dream on a 38ft cat: performance, style and a wonderful time

Please keep us informed about your search and ideas,it helps all of us who are not sailing at the moment, especially those like myself whoes plans have somewhat stalled.

best wishes for festive season and hope the jule nisse are good to you. They are very partial to a dram:D being left out for them. T
http://polyptique.maisonpop.fr/images_users/Julenissen.jpeg
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nisse1.jpg


http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nisse1.jpg

[Bubba]

I hope Santa brings me a winning lottery ticket, then we won't have to worry about buying an undersized boat for us :rolleyes:

I also think a 40 to 44 ft cat would be a great solo sailiable liveaboard any bigger then I would need some crew when my wife is on shore working, but I think my wife would not like a single young good looking woman as full time crew to handle a bigger boat :D

[Maxingout]

Privilege 39 works good for me.

21 foot beam means it can go into many sportfisherman slips, so it's easier to find marina space.

21 foot beam means there are more places that can haul me out around the world.

I have the same number of cabins as the larger catamrans.

It doesn't matter to me if the galley is up or down, as long as the first mate cooks great meals.

Smaller and more compact size tends to give a stronger hull. We have the same number and location of bulkheads as many larger cats. That translates into better support and stiffening of the sides of the hull which is an asset when in a storm offshore. Strong is good.

I can singlehand my 39 footer easily. Sail area is manageable.

I would get a humongous catamaran if I was going to use a boat as a floating condominium and never go sailing. I reckon about 100 feet long would be about right.

[searenitysail]

Privilege 39 works good for me.

And the Privilege 39 LOOKS good, too!

Pictures of the Privilege 39 in tropical locations in sailing magazines in the early/mid 1990s got me thinking about bareboat chartering, and eventually actually chartering a catamaran and now, owning!

There have been some Privilege 39s at some attractive prices in the US and Caribbean over the past two years!

Marshall