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lancelots
28th November 2010, 01:57 PM
I keep looking at other cats and I keep looking back to these, about 150,000 for the kit, no engines, mast, rigging, instruments, etc. donít quote me but I think itís 12 days for the fusion team of four guys (Iím probably wrong ) to knock these out to floating stage. I saw one on the sunshine coast (QLD Australia) looked a little small on the back deck, but I can live with that there are a few on the water now and I was wondering what the Buzz is on them. Good, bad or otherwise? I heard of one guy putting larger engines in aka the power model and was still happy with the sailing performance.

Are there any first hand accounts out there that are willing to scribe a few words for the unwise to learn from?

dmmbruce
28th November 2010, 06:31 PM
It would help if we knew what boats you are talking about.

Mike

dmmbruce
28th November 2010, 07:56 PM
It would help if we knew what boats you are talking about.

Mike

Sorry! - I have seen the answer to my own question. It is posted on the Fusion Catamarans forum. :(

Idiot, Mike!

Sully
28th November 2010, 09:59 PM
Having analyzed build pricing and time to death, I don't think you get very far into the build with these kits if you are doing them yourself.

Cost of materials for a modestly fit out boat of slightly larger size is $200K or so. If your kit costs $150K and you still have to buy a rig and *everything* except the hull, you're going to come out a lot higher.

Also, you will need huge indoor lifting cranes for the assembly (they don't show that on the marketing brochures) and teams of people.

Unless Fusion guarantees that they themselves will put it together for you in 4 days of "not to exceed" labor, I'd be very wary.

You just don't get very far into the build for $150K. There is still a year or more left to fit her out after you get assembled at $150K... and another $100K probably as well!

smj
29th November 2010, 12:20 AM
But when she's finished you have a boat that seems to be going for $450,000 to $500,000. Maybe worth the year or so labour to save $200,000 or $250,000.

Sully
29th November 2010, 12:43 AM
But when she's finished you have a boat that seems to be going for $450,000 to $500,000. Maybe worth the year or so labour to save $200,000 or $250,000.

I was trying not to be too harsh...

The materials cost of a similar boat is $80K to get to the same stage as the Fusion is when you are done the year of work. The Fusion costs approximately double what the boat you put together from scratch costs to get to the same point. At that point you, then have to buy everything you'd have to buy for both boats.

So, the Fusion is $70K more than a boat you'd build yourself. Not a very good deal.

Also, does the kit come with significant amounts of epoxy, biaxial tape, forward bow tubes, rudders and rudder stocks, or any interior? No? Better think twice because there is a fortune of hidden costs there that are included in my $80K standard build number for a 45' boat.

Wait... isn't the Fusion also smaller than 45 feet? Even worse...

A few years labor and you can have a $500K, core cell foam cored boat for $200, fully tricked out. Net gain? $300K. Better than Fusion.

smj
29th November 2010, 02:42 AM
I understand what you're saying Sully. If you have the time, knowledge and patience to lay up the hull you can definitely save some money. For those that aren't as experienced or motivated the Fusion kit seems like a good deal.
I think in Australia the home built boats usually bring a premium where in the US they are a harder sell. I wonder if the Fusion would have a higher resale because of it being partially a production boat.

lancelots
29th November 2010, 03:55 AM
For first hand accounts of the build process please visit http://www.cruisingnorth.com.au/
FUSION 40 STD PARTS LIST
3/06/2008 PACKING LIST

FC40-1 Hull underwater L/H Moulded 1
FC40-2 Hull underwater R/H Moulded 1
FC40-3 Hull inboard L/H Moulded 1
FC40-4 Hull inboard R/H Moulded 1
FC40-5 Wing deck Moulded 1
FC40-7 Hull liner L/H Moulded 1
FC40-8 Hull liner R/H Moulded 1
FC40-9 Rear Bulkhead Moulded 1
FC40-9.1 Rear Bulkhead Cap Moulded 1
FC40-11 Transom/steps L/H Moulded 1
FC40-12 Transom/steps R/H Moulded 1
FC40-13 Cockpit L/H Moulded 1
FC40-14 Cockpit R/H Moulded 1
FC40-15 Hull outboard L/H Moulded 1
FC40-16 Hull outboard R/H Moulded 1
FC40-17 Cabin Roof L/H Moulded 1
FC40-17A Cabin Roof Fairing L/H Moulded 1
FC40-18 Cabin Roof R/H Moulded 1
FC40-18A Cabin Roof Fairing R/H Moulded 1
FC40-19 Cockpit Seat Moulded 1
FC40-23 Mast bulkhead Sta.4750 DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-23.1 Mast bulkhead Sta.4750 Cap Moulded 1
FC40-25 Main comp b/head centre Moulded 1
FC40-25.1 Main comp b/head -port DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-26 Main comp b/head -stbd DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-27 D frame centre DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-29 D frame L/H B/L 0.700 DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-30 D frame R/H BL 0.700 DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-31 Cabin roof centre Moulded 1
FC40-33 Keel Moulded 2
FC40-35 Rudder Moulded 2
FC40-37 Catwalk + Prodder Moulded 2
FC40-39 Bow cap Moulded 2
FC40-41 B/head Sta.300 LH,RH DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-43 B/head STA 1 L/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
B/head STA 1 R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-45 B/head STA 2 L/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
B/head STA 2 R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-47 Intercostal STA.3300 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-51 Main Comp. B/hd Cap Moulded 1
FC40-52 Not used
FC40-53 B/head STA -9020 L/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
B/head STA -9020 R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-55 Counter STA -2284/STA-4750 L/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
Counter STA -2284/STA-4750 R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-57 Counter STA-4750/STA-7595 L/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
Counter STA-4750/STA-7595 R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 1
FC40-59.1 Floor LH,RH DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-59.2 Floor LH,RH DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-61.1 Forward comp sole LH,RH DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-61.2 Forward comp sole LH,RH DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-75 Cockpit seat hatch LH aft Moulded 1
FC40-76 Cockpit seat hatch RH aft Moulded 1
FC40-77 Cockpit seat hatch centre aft Moulded 1
FC40-80 Cockpit seat hatch fwd RH Moulded 1
FC40-81 Mast deck hatch aft LH Moulded 1
FC40-82 Mast deck hatch aft RH Moulded 1
FC40-83 Mast deck hatch fwd LH Moulded 1
FC40-84 Mast deck hatch fwd RH Moulded 1
FC40-85 Engine Comp Hatch-LH Moulded 1
FC40-86 Engine Comp Hatch-RH Moulded 1
FC40-87 b/head assembly st-7045 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-89 intercostal bhd st-7595 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-91 Partial b/head st-9400 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-93 Partial b/head st-9790 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-95 rudder b/head assembly L/H, R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-97 main comp. Counter L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-590.3 Floor L/H, R/H Moulded 2
FC40-590.4 Floor L/H, R/H Moulded 2
FC40-590.5 Floor L/H,R/H Moulded 2
FC40-99 Keel Stiffener L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 4
FC40-101 Tank Bulkhead Sta.5250 Moulded 2
FC40-103 Swim Platform L/H Fairing Moulded 1
FC40-104 Swim Platform R/H Fairing Moulded 1
FC40-105 Targa reinforcing BL 2120 L/H,R/H DXF (Flat Panel) 2
FC40-108 Targa Moulded 1
FC40-109 Steering Console Moulded 1
FC40-111 Chain channel Moulded 1
FC40-115 Anchor Winch Mount Moulded 1

lancelots
29th November 2010, 04:22 AM
Letís add to the fact that all these are finished gel coated pieces, it can be built outside if need be and that hiring a non-slew crane to do the lifting is an easy process


It simply glues together like the old Airfix models, albeit with a better glue.


The company even has component furniture for the inside, should you choose that option.


Sure not as cheap as doing it all from scratch yourself but with no set up costs to do all the vacuum infusing yourself, no fairing and gel coating to finish the parts itís a pretty quick way into the water for a 40ft Catamaran.


So you hire a few bods to get you started even a shed for them to work in to start you off and bang you can transport it your chosen finish off point and tinker the last bits together with or without help from your mates or significant other.


Then take out the long term cost of somewhere to build from scratch and it seems more cost effective to me.


Launch is not far from start to finish and it is a lot more achievable for most than building from scratch.

Good luck and
Kindest Regards to all

smj
29th November 2010, 12:55 PM
Letís add to the fact that all these are finished gel coated pieces, it can be built outside if need be and that hiring a non-slew crane to do the lifting is an easy process


It simply glues together like the old Airfix models, albeit with a better glue.


The company even has component furniture for the inside, should you choose that option.


Sure not as cheap as doing it all from scratch yourself but with no set up costs to do all the vacuum infusing yourself, no fairing and gel coating to finish the parts itís a pretty quick way into the water for a 40ft Catamaran.


So you hire a few bods to get you started even a shed for them to work in to start you off and bang you can transport it your chosen finish off point and tinker the last bits together with or without help from your mates or significant other.


Then take out the long term cost of somewhere to build from scratch and it seems more cost effective to me.


Launch is not far from start to finish and it is a lot more achievable for most than building from scratch.

Good luck and
Kindest Regards to all



I dont know, I worked for a custom cat builder in the Key's for awhile and think I would miss going to sleep on a bed of pins and needles after grinding glass all day:) Sounds like a good option and Fusion has a good name.

lancelots
29th November 2010, 04:41 PM
The price of the Sailing Kit is 92,000 Euro ex Thailand

IreAneY
29th November 2010, 06:56 PM
I was very keen on this idea myself and the cat, but when I looked at doing it and priced out the costs it was going to cost me in excess of £400,000 so I decided a NO, NO and when I went on one in France I found it very small inside for a 40ft cat, plus for UK sailing the helm position is far from ideal, I know many Oz cats have this helm position, but not for the UK.
Lovely looking cat and I have heard nice mouldings.:)

Whimsical
30th November 2010, 03:53 AM
I was very tempted by these but opted for the Schionning kit.
Several factors swayed me.
The cost when i was looking was about 170,000 without furniture, they didn't have any furniture mouldings at that stage. They also didn't have the crew to come and assemble it for you. The cost was about 70,000 more than the Schionning kit and if that was spent on labour then they would both come out nearly the same to the same stage of build. So with the Fusion I had less options to save costs.
Now they have changed the assembly method to using tapes and not just gluing the panels one of my biggest worries has gone. However they still use a gelcoat and vinylester resin which in my opinion is less desirable.
Weight was my biggest concern and from the photos i have seen of them floating they appear to float about the design waterline with hardly any interior in them. Many pix show the bottom step only just above the water but the lines drawings show the transoms fully clear, very curious. I would love to see some confirmable numbers on this subject.
Now that it seems like the costs have been reduced a huge amount and the availablity of the assembly crew maybe i would consider 1 more now but sure would need a lot more investigation. But then a lot of my selection criterior has to do with looks and other features and so would most likely still go with the schionning Bi-Rig.
Like they all say boats are a compromise.

Mike

tuskie
3rd December 2010, 05:21 AM
I was wondering what the Buzz is on them. Good, bad or otherwise?

Hi all,
Let me start by saying that I’m a fan of Fusions. I’ve spent a bit of time (not extensive) on a couple, done a detailed costing on building one and are currently observing/helping on an owner build. I might even make one myself!

I think that they are a GOOD idea if you plan to build yourself. They are quicker than most (or all) other kits of similar size, are a great design and have no wood, balsa, paper, etc. No wood = no rot, no argument. You end up with a known, proven boat with a reasonable resale value. Though this is not a great as current sellers think!

Buying a built Fusion 40 in Australia, is IMHO a BAD idea, as the bare, basic “sailaway” package of over A$500,000 is poor value compared to several similarly sized production boats. If you can’t find a production boat with the layout you like then a builder can customize a Fusion to your taste, but this will cost even more. There are lots of expensive “custom catamarans” on the market that no one wants to buy.

If you think that building one will be “kit cost plus a bit more” and can be done easily and quickly, think again! BAD, BAD idea. For starters, the Fusion kit price does not include GST, delivery costs, assembly jig, glues or tapes that some kits do. The components are large and heavy. They are not easily moved or positioned. Allow costs for making a gantry or for crane hire. This leads to the subject of “hidden costs”. Most DIY builders want to justify building a boat and so “forget” to cost in (or don’t tell their wives about) things such as shed cost or rent, buying/selling to get a suitable property, crane hire, builders’ insurance and the cost of removal and transport at launch time. (I haven’t mentioned divorce or surgery!)

Allow at least 3,000 hours for your build. Negotiate carefully your “help with assembly”. The list of DIY builds of all brands that have suffered massive time blowouts is very long. Don’t forget that every extra year of build time means extra rent, extra insurance, more depreciation, an older boat physically and design wise, and less enthusiasm. Don’t underestimate the time involved nor overestimate time that you can put in. Don’t rely on outside help, unless paid. The fusion kit does not go together like the advertising hype says. Components that magically appear and precisely fit together with watchmaking precision. Sorry, it doesn’t happen that way in home builder real life! The components are large and awkward. Mating surfaces must be grinded, sanded and prepped before assembly. They require extensive cutting and “trimming”, over 150 mm along whole edges on some components, before they fit accurately. This is difficult and time consuming. Fusions don’t need an overall fair and paint as most kits do, but the joins require painstaking filling, fairing and gelcoating. There’s plenty of fairing and painting inside to do.
In short, DIY builds “COST MORE AND TAKE LONGER THAN YOU THINK”. Exceptions to this rule are rare. Fusions are not immune.

I’m sure that the lure of sundowners on the cockpit in an exotic tropical anchorage makes it all worthwhile.
Cheers, Tuskie

tuskie
3rd December 2010, 05:37 AM
I was very tempted by these but opted for the Schionning kit.
Several factors swayed me.
Weight was my biggest concern and from the photos i have seen of them floating they appear to float about the design waterline with hardly any interior in them. Many pix show the bottom step only just above the water but the lines drawings show the transoms fully clear, very curious.
Mike
Hi Mike,
The design of the Fusion40 (a Lingard 39) takes into account a payload that includes 800 litres of water and 400 litres of fuel. This is large and rare amount of tankage in cats under 40 foot.

My observation is that they float on their design lines when built sensibly lightly and loaded to specification. There probably are overweight Fusions, as there are most brands. The designer has no control over how they are fitted out. Some owners just LUURVE granite benchtops, air con, diesel gensets, and 20 house batteries. Not many Schionning builders, though, I'm sure! LOL

The bottom line on Fusion bottom lines is that they are a strong but lightweight boat designed to carry a realistic cruising payload.

Cheers, Tuskie

lancelots
3rd December 2010, 08:42 AM
Good to see you here Tuskie

As someone that has been there on a couple of Fusion builds you are a highly valued commodity in this thread

If you feel up to it and your mate doesn't mind some photos of the current build would be great to see here (I think they call it boat ****)

A voice of reason with a hand in a current project letting us know the true nitty gritty details

Thanks heaps.

tuskie
4th December 2010, 07:47 AM
Thanks Lancelots,
I will try to post a few photos as the build progresses. I lost a post or two without trace into cyberspace,I probably have to have a few or more posts up before photos are accepted or was just too show in typing.
This is the first build that I have been involved with from the kit asembly point. The only other one was at advanced fitout stage. It was bought as a "motoraway" assembled boat.

Cheers,
Tuskie

lancelots
4th December 2010, 11:53 AM
Jim from Fusion was kind enough to supply me with the build prices from their Australian Fusion 40 Assembly (East coast) brochure

The Fusion 40 Kit is purchased from Fusion Catamarans International for 92,000 Euro ex Thailand; this is then freighted to your nominated delivery point. The Kit is Duty Free into Australia; however GST is paid on the import documentation. Freight quotations will be supplied when destination is known.

ASSEMBLY STAGES: (Sail)
Assembly only...........................................$48 ,510 (inc GST)
Assembly plus Furniture Installed.......... $128,535 (inc GST)
Motoraway......................................... ........$126,005 (inc GST)
Motoraway plus furniture Installed....... $205,920 (inc GST)
Sailaway....(inc. Motoraway items)..........$200,200 (inc GST)
Sailaway plus Furniture Installed...........$280,203 (inc GST)
Basic Cruiser........................................... $368,500 (inc GST)
Fusion 40 (Cruise ready) .......................$423,500 (inc GST)

The East Coast Assembly Agents are only too happy to customise and work hand in hand with you to produce your dream boat.

Sully
4th December 2010, 01:39 PM
See, for reference, my 45' Kurt Hughes cruising cat's motor away price is $80K including taxes and shipping. That's for a 45' boat, built from the best materials you can buy: Core Cell foam, West System and AmPreg 22 epoxy, E-Glass post cured for ultimate strength. They use vinylester and PVC cores, according to the link below:

http://www.fusioncats.com/sailcatamarans/catamaran_technology.php

My Catalac was made from Vinylester.

$46K less at motor away for a boat that's 5' longer, with a 25' beam, made of better materials.

It's a great option for some, but if you are building a boat (and assembling one of these would qualify, IMO), you are better off financially just starting from scratch. If you want to save some time and effort in a build, go for a Kelsall build or something like that where you do all the work on a nice, flat bagging table or a Bob Oram Duflex boat you tape together. Those are an even better value than mine and nice and quick to put together.





Jim from Fusion was kind enough to supply me with the build prices from their Australian Fusion 40 Assembly (East coast) brochure

The Fusion 40 Kit is purchased from Fusion Catamarans International for 92,000 Euro ex Thailand; this is then freighted to your nominated delivery point. The Kit is Duty Free into Australia; however GST is paid on the import documentation. Freight quotations will be supplied when destination is known.

ASSEMBLY STAGES: (Sail)
Assembly only...........................................$48 ,510 (inc GST)
Assembly plus Furniture Installed.......... $128,535 (inc GST)
Motoraway......................................... ........$126,005 (inc GST)
Motoraway plus furniture Installed....... $205,920 (inc GST)
Sailaway....(inc. Motoraway items)..........$200,200 (inc GST)
Sailaway plus Furniture Installed...........$280,203 (inc GST)
Basic Cruiser........................................... $368,500 (inc GST)
Fusion 40 (Cruise ready) .......................$423,500 (inc GST)

The East Coast Assembly Agents are only too happy to customise and work hand in hand with you to produce your dream boat.

Whimsical
4th December 2010, 02:18 PM
Lancelots
I presume the Cruise ready price is plus the cost of the kit landed in aus
So it becomes about 145,000 + 423,000 Total $568k
Would that be correct
That is about the same a custom built Schionning Wilderness. It would be nice if there was a way of getting something nice for a good price but it doesn't seem to be likely. Similar boat similar cost.



Jim from Fusion was kind enough to supply me with the build prices from their Australian Fusion 40 Assembly (East coast) brochure

The Fusion 40 Kit is purchased from Fusion Catamarans International for 92,000 Euro ex Thailand; this is then freighted to your nominated delivery point. The Kit is Duty Free into Australia; however GST is paid on the import documentation. Freight quotations will be supplied when destination is known.

ASSEMBLY STAGES: (Sail)
Assembly only...........................................$48 ,510 (inc GST)
Assembly plus Furniture Installed.......... $128,535 (inc GST)
Motoraway......................................... ........$126,005 (inc GST)
Motoraway plus furniture Installed....... $205,920 (inc GST)
Sailaway....(inc. Motoraway items)..........$200,200 (inc GST)
Sailaway plus Furniture Installed...........$280,203 (inc GST)
Basic Cruiser........................................... $368,500 (inc GST)
Fusion 40 (Cruise ready) .......................$423,500 (inc GST)

The East Coast Assembly Agents are only too happy to customise and work hand in hand with you to produce your dream boat.

lancelots
5th December 2010, 01:58 AM
See, for reference, my 45' Kurt Hughes cruising cat's motor away price is $80K including taxes and shipping. That's for a 45' boat, built from the best materials you can buy: Core Cell foam, West System and AmPreg 22 epoxy, E-Glass post cured for ultimate strength.


Hi Sully,


I canít seem to find much info on bridge deck clearance or images for inside and out of the Kurt Hughes. How are you fixed for information and pictures that can be posted?

lancelots
5th December 2010, 02:11 AM
Lancelots
I presume the Cruise ready price is plus the cost of the kit landed in aus
So it becomes about 145,000 + 423,000 Total $568k
Would that be correct
That is about the same a custom built Schionning Wilderness. It would be nice if there was a way of getting something nice for a good price but it doesn't seem to be likely. Similar boat similar cost.


Hi Whimsical,

That seems to be the sum total of it but you can have them build it part of the way I suppose if that be your desire and then finish the internals yourself either with the custom built parts from the guys at Mackay (QLD, Australia) or to your own interior design or even mix and mach for that matter


Once again Jim was kind enough to send me the price list for these modular parts



MOULDED INTERNAL COMPONENTS
Part Number Description PRICE AU$
CSS100 Saloon - Fridge / Freezer Module $2,485.00
CSS101 Saloon - Setee Module (Standard) $3,525.00
CSS102 Saloon - Galley Module $3,715.00
CSS103 Saloon - Cupboard Module $2,190.00
CSS104 Saloon - Glass Mullion Sections (3 pce) $3,600.00
CSS105 Saloon - Small Setee Module (**OPTIONAL**) $1,565.00
CSS106 Saloon - Rear Wall Liner $775.00
CSS107 Saloon - Fridge / Freezer Liner $1,655.00
CSS108 Saloon - Benchtop Corner Modules (Pt & Stb) $1,085.00
CSS109 Saloon - Settee Lids (2off) $640.00
PSA200 Port Side Aft - Shower Base Section $2,655.00
PSA201 Port Side Aft - Shower Top Section $1,875.00
PSA202 Port Side Aft - Vanity / Toilet Base Module $2,150.00
PSA203 Port Side Aft - Corner Cupboard / Wall Section $1,485.00
PSA204 Port Side Aft - Shower Roof (2400 x 1200 Shiny Sheet) $995.00
PSA205 Port Side Aft - Medicine Cabinet Insert (**OPTIONAL**) $185.00
PSA210 Port Side - Engine Bay Trough (**OPTIONAL**) $575.00
PSM300 Port Side Mid-Ship - Nav Station & Steps Module $3,385.00
PSM301 Port Side Mid-Ship - Outer Cupboard Module $3,265.00
PSM310 PSMS - Outer Cupboard Module - Cupboard Liners (2off Tall) $587.00
PSM311 PSMS - Outer Cupboard Module - Cupboard Liner (1off Centre) $980.00
PSM312 PSMS - Nav Station Module - Cupboard Liner (1off Wet Locker) $294.00
PSM302 Port Side Mid-Ship - Centre Bathroom Steps Module (**OPTIONAL**) $2,590.00
PSM304 Port Side Mid-Ship - Centre Bathroom Pod Module (**OPTIONAL**) $2,895.00
PSF400 Port Side Forward Berth - Step & Cupboard Module (**OPTIONAL**) $2,250.00
PSF410 PSFB - Step & C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off Fwd) $196.00
PSF411 PSFB - Step & C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off Aft) $245.00
PSF401 Port Side Forward Berth - Bed End Module (**OPTIONAL**) $1,475.00
PSF412 PSFB - Bed End Module - Cupboard Liners (2off) $490.00
PSF402 Port Side Forward Berth - Outer Cupboard Module $2,410.00
PSF413 PSFB - Outer C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off) $857.00
PSF403 Port Side Forward Berth - Bulkhead Liner (**OPTIONAL**) $1,360.00
PSF404 Port Side Forward Berth - Complete Bunk Module $7,085.00
PSF405 Port Side Forward Berth - Storage Area Fwd Section (SSF705) $2,650.00
SSA510 Starboard Side - Engine Bay Trough (**OPTIONAL**) $575.00
SSM600 Starbord Side Mid-Ship - Steps & Cupboard Module $2,615.00
SSM601 Starboard Side Mid-Ship - Outer Cupboard Module $2,955.00
SSM610 SSMS - Outer Cupboard Module - Cupboard Liners (2off Tall) $587.00
SSM611 SSMS - Outer Cupboard Module - Cupboard Liner (1off Centre) $980.00
SSF700 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Step & Cupboard Module (**OPTIONAL**) $2,250.00
SSF710 SSFB - Step & C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off Fwd) $196.00
SSF711 SSFB - Step & C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off Aft) $245.00
SSF701 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Bed End Module (**OPTIONAL**) $1,475.00
SSF712 SSFB - Bed End Module - Cupboard Liners (2off) $490.00
SSF702 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Outer Cupboard Module $2,410.00
SSF713 SSFB - Outer C'Board Module - Cupboard Liners (1off) $857.00
SSF703 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Bulkhead Liner (**OPTIONAL**) $1,360.00
SSF704 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Complete Bunk Module $7,085.00
SSF705 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Ensuite Toilet Module $2,650.00
SSF706 Starboard Side Forward Berth - Ensuite Vanity Module $2,510.00
IMC800 Outer Hull - Overhead Angles (2.4m length) (**OPTIONAL**) $515.00
** NOTE ** THESE PRICES DO INCLUDE GST.
THESE PRICES DO NOT INCLUDE PACKAGING AND FREIGHT.
Please contact jim@fusioncats for more information.

Sully
5th December 2010, 03:05 AM
Hi Sully,


I can’t seem to find much info on bridge deck clearance or images for inside and out of the Kurt Hughes. How are you fixed for information and pictures that can be posted?

BD clearance is over 3' unless you are really loaded down. At maximum payload plus boat weight (20,000 lbs total) it goes to 2'11". The boat itself weighs 12,000 lbs. She's got some load carrying ability because she's designed for extended cruising and/or term charters.

Interior shots don't exist because it's a custom boat. Every interior is different. You build it however you want it.

My personal model is being built with a forward cockpit (a la Chris White and Gunboat) and it has a completely different interior since I do term charters. It will also have a hard bimini coming straight back at existing deckhouse roof level. Inside, one of the major changes is I'm arranged all berths to be accessible without climbing over your bunk mate. There will also be a different, more rounded window scheme and of course, a good paint job... the yellow one below is so-so. Oh yeah... also the bows will be fully plumb in mine.

I can share these pictures though. I apologize for the size of the images and unattractive naked people in one of these pictures! ::)

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/images/45bdcat_7.gif
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/images/45bdcat_9.gif
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/images/45bdcatINTPLAN5.gif
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/images/45bdcataft.gif

Scared up a video or two of Zeevonk underway as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye9MUXAXG0g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb5j803TRgc&feature=related

Yoga O
5th December 2010, 03:54 AM
Hey!

We met the ZeeVonks in Bonaire a few months ago - small world!?!

Fair Winds,
Mike

Sully
5th December 2010, 04:11 AM
Hey!

We met the ZeeVonks in Bonaire a few months ago - small world!?!

Fair Winds,
Mike

It really is a small world! Did you meet Nolly the dive instructor/human fish yet?

Been to Small Wall, Something Special or do any drift diving between Klein Bonaire and regular Bonaire?

I had a great time there. One of my favorite places. One of my best memories of the ocean is waiting above in a tender for a dive party and just lounging... relaxing. I was the guy who stayed above. I heard this weird sound... "pffft!" Then again... off in the distance... "pfft!" I was facing toward the town pier and from behind me came in a pod of porpoises that had to be 500-800 strong. They were all breaching and seeing the babies breaching was funny because they had a distance in the air about 1/3 of what a grown dolphin has, so they breached 3x as much in little hops.

I grabbed the nearest mask and snorkel set and jumped in to see them all go by.

What a place...

Zeevonk is the same boat I'm currently building.

Sorry for derailing this thread in "Fusion Catamarans." :( I'll shut up now.

lancelots
5th December 2010, 05:33 AM
Sorry for derailing this thread in "Fusion Catamarans." :( I'll shut up now.

As we say in Australia

It's all good mate!

tuskie
5th December 2010, 06:58 AM
I apologize for the size of the images and unattractive naked people in one of these pictures! ::)

They're not all unattractive.

tuskie
5th December 2010, 07:18 AM
$46K less at motor away for a boat that's 5' longer, with a 25' beam, made of better materials.

Sorry Sully,
Make that about $180K less. The motoraway cost of $126K doesn't include the kit cost + add ons. It would run out to about $260k for a motoraway all up. As peviously mentioned, I think the assembled Fusions represent BAD value.

A Kurt Hughes motoraway however, isn't available in Australia and needs a fittout and rig before it is sailable to Australia. Upon entry an owner will face import duty on things not of US origin (we have a free trade agreement with the US as with Thailand) plus 10% GST on the lot: boat, transport and delivery costs and duties imposed.

Probably still cheaper than a Fusion 40.

Thanks for the idea Sully.

Cheers, Tuskie

Sully
6th December 2010, 01:49 AM
Tuskie,

You're in Australia and you want an inexpensive catamaran that isn't a nightmare to build?

I have two words for you: Bob Oram

His 44C model is about $200K full sailing ready with a tasteful fit out. Of course, you have to build it, but you are taping together large strips of Duflex with biaxial tape. Not too bad.

expat
6th December 2010, 02:19 AM
Have you considered an EASY?

http://easycatamarans.com.au

http://www.puremajek.com

Tropic Cat
6th December 2010, 02:50 AM
I dunno guys. I was just sailing on a brand new, Richard Woods Transit 38. It's a gorgeous boat. More room that a Manta 40' and apparently a lot faster. Richard Woods emailed me today that he was sailing her at 10.8 knots on flat water (main sail and a 105 genny). The kicker is that this particular boat can be had in cruiser fit out, completely built for $350,000 (if you can get Richard off the boat).

Yeah, it's a deal and that's my point. 3000 - 4000 hours, loads of headaches, years off your life to build a boat and for what reason? You can save the money right now and start having fun because the deals are out there....NOW.

The advert for this boat is on my web site. She's a sweet sail, and I used to hate dagger boards!!

tuskie
6th December 2010, 03:28 AM
Tuskie,

I have two words for you: Bob Oram


Thanks Sully.

Have looked at Orams and Easys and they have many advantages. I don't wish to upset any of their devotees, many of whom are regular contributers to this forum.

From my perspective, I have discounted them from the new kit or secondhand buy list for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the hulls of each are relatively cheap to construct, but the cost of fitout and rigging and sails and anchor equipment and trampolines and fridges and electronics, etc are the same for all cats. In short, what I am saying is build a cheap hull if you want to fit out cheaply. If you want a quality fitout then do it to a quality hull.

I don't personally believe a ply or duflex boat is high quality. I know that this will result in the usual howls of outrage! I know that there are long lived examples of these forms of construction. But, this is a Fusion thread and most Fusion owners or prospective owners are attracted to the design in large part because of the construction materials used. I know that a properly constructed and maintained ply or duflex boat will not allow water ingress and therefore won't rot, IN THEORY. In theory, the rules of the road should also prevent road accidents and condoms should also prevent pregnancy. But in real life..... Fact is, the waterproofing layer over the balsa or plywood on both designs is very thin and vulnerable. Fact is, I've seen plenty of rooten wood in all sorts of boats, many owned by people who thought that their boat was constructed properly and the wood would not rot. Myself included.

Four words: "NO WOOD, NO ROT"

Secondly, the ease of construction of Orams and Easys IMHO have resulted in design compromises such as sharp chines and flat bottomed hulls. I don't profess to be an expert in hydrodynamics but no designer of multihulls that I know of has chosen these design features when using a medium such as fibreglass, which allows unlimited design freedom. Don't get me wrong, both designers (Oram and Snell) are successful in producing easily constructed boats that seem to perform quite well.

Horses for courses. These particular horses aren't for me.

Cheers, Tuskie

Sully
6th December 2010, 03:55 AM
Thanks Sully.

Have looked at Orams and Easys and they have many advantages. I don't wish to upset any of their devotees, many of whom are regular contributers to this forum.

From my perspective, I have discounted them from the new kit or secondhand buy list for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the hulls of each are relatively cheap to construct, but the cost of fitout and rigging and sails and anchor equipment and trampolines and fridges and electronics, etc are the same for all cats. In short, what I am saying is build a cheap hull if you want to fit out cheaply. If you want a quality fitout then do it to a quality hull.

I don't personally believe a ply or duflex boat is high quality. I know that this will result in the usual howls of outrage! I know that there are long lived examples of these forms of construction. But, this is a Fusion thread and most Fusion owners or prospective owners are attracted to the design in large part because of the construction materials used. I know that a properly constructed and maintained ply or duflex boat will not allow water ingress and therefore won't rot, IN THEORY. In theory, the rules of the road should also prevent road accidents and condoms should also prevent pregnancy. But in real life..... Fact is, the waterproofing layer over the balsa or plywood on both designs is very thin and vulnerable. Fact is, I've seen plenty of rooten wood in all sorts of boats, many owned by people who thought that their boat was constructed properly and the wood would not rot. Myself included.

Four words: "NO WOOD, NO ROT"

Secondly, the ease of construction of Orams and Easys IMHO have resulted in design compromises such as sharp chines and flat bottomed hulls. I don't profess to be an expert in hydrodynamics but no designer of multihulls that I know of has chosen these design features when using a medium such as fibreglass, which allows unlimited design freedom. Don't get me wrong, both designers (Oram and Snell) are successful in producing easily constructed boats that seem to perform quite well.

Horses for courses. These particular horses aren't for me.

Cheers, Tuskie

Actually, I agree completely, or would have built one myself. I figured they were local for you though. Last post on this thread, and sorry for the hijacking again. One note: ATL makes a variety of Duflex panels with Corecell foam instead of balsa. Thought you might find that interesting.

lancelots
6th December 2010, 06:17 AM
Certainly there are lots of kits that could be built cheaper but as Tuskie has said there are certain design features that are specific i.e. the use of foam and vinyl ester resin are one factor but also solid glass below the water line is another attractive plus and the ability to get the boat a floating stage very quickly as apposed to other kits.


However they are definitely not a cheap kit.


One thing I was considering was that I could possibly build this in Thailand where labor would be a lot cheaper. Perhaps this would make for a cheaper fit out as flat panel could be used to create the components for internal fitting out at a discounted rate to what is on offer from the factory modules.


What do you think Tuskie, it doesnít look like rocket science to put it together, perhaps cheaper supervised labor may be the alternative to trying to build it in Australia?

tuskie
6th December 2010, 08:57 AM
Lancelots,
There have been a few Fusions that have been assembled and fitted out in Thailand. I'm not sure of current pricing and whether the savings would be worth the effort. I would definitely recommend being close to the job the whole time. The outfit that seems to be the most experienced with Fusion builds in Thailand is Yachting Siam:
http://www.yachtingsiam.com/

Don't forget to contact our friends at Australian Customs to determine the approximate costs of import duties and GST if you wish to bring the completed boat back to Australia.

Alternatively I know of several yachties who have sailed new hulls with "camping level" fitout to Thailand or Malaysia to be properly fitted out there. You still have to get the boat assembled in Australia first.

Cheers, Tuskie

lancelots
6th December 2010, 09:39 AM
Don't forget to contact our friends at Australian Customs to determine the approximate costs of import duties and GST if you wish to bring the completed boat back to Australia.


Cheers, Tuskie


Thatís what BVI registration is for my good friend.


Extended cruising for me does include the country I know so well and love.


Except for the three months a year allowable for a red ensign vessel

lancelots
6th December 2010, 09:41 AM
Spirited 480 – Standard Motor Away

Stallion Marine



The Standard motor Away is the affordable option to get a professionally built Schionning 1250X on the water and ready to fitout.

Construction
∑ Balsa Duflex panels for structural sections and bulkheads
∑ Duflex Featherlight and foam for interior non-structural
∑ 100% Epoxy
∑ 2-Pac exterior finish

Cockpit
∑ Cockpit and aft stairs are all lined with high quality non-skid
∑ 4 x so-pac water proof back beam seat lockers
∑ Port helm station instrument panel
∑ Walk through transom
∑ Stbd cockpit table with seating
∑ Composite bi-fold door with southco locking system

Steering System
∑ Helm station with large ocean racing wheel (1000mm S/S)
∑ SPJ Morse steering system

Windows
∑ 1 x sliding service window out to cockpit
∑ Tinted acrylic windows fitted to cabin

Layout and Features
Internally the boat will be finished to a glass finish. All fiberglass tapping will be ground up and neatly finished. All end cores will be sealed and back filled. All door and cupboard cut outs will be kept for later use.

Deck
∑ 6 S/S mooring cleats – 3 each side
∑ 5 stanchions each side
∑ 4 x size 10 low profile Lewmar hatches
∑ 5 x size 40 low profile Lewmar hatches
∑ 8 x stainless steal opening port lights
∑ Fore beam wire fitted
∑ Ally back pads fitted for anchor bridal and bob stays

Tanks
∑ Atlas fresh water tanks fitted – Main fresh water lines run back to saloon
∑ Atlas diesel tanks 250l – Fuel tanks are connected up to motors with return lines run
∑ Fuel sensors, Gauges and pick ups.

Engines
∑ Twin Yanmar 39hp sail-drive diesel engines lying on reinforced fiberglass engine beds
∑ three bladed feathering gori props
∑ Fuel tank via two separate tanks with electric gauges
∑ Engine controls with all gauges Helm station
∑ Vented loop siphon breaks x 2
∑ Well vented engine room


Centre boards
∑ Two glossed centre boards in there cases

Price: AUS $499,000.00 inc GST
Price listed includes insurance on the boat until the boat leaves the stallion marine factory and includes transport to water at Mooloolaba.

Whimsical
6th December 2010, 10:36 AM
Spirited 480Ė Standard Motor Away

Stallion Marine



The Standard motor Away is the affordable option to get a professionally built Schionning 1250X on the water and ready to fitout.



Got me confused now. Is it a Spirited 480 or a Schionning 1250X

Mike

lancelots
6th December 2010, 01:00 PM
Got me confused now. Is it a Spirited 480 or a Schionning 1250X

Mike


Hey not my website I'll let them decide that::)

tuskie
7th December 2010, 04:44 AM
The boys at Stallion Marine at Yandina do excellent work and will happily discuss different designs and construction materials.

One of the advantages of a custom or semi-custom build is the ability to get things just the way you want.

Some people, for example like the Fusion 40 cockpit roof just the way it comes, straight back off the cabin and half way over the cockpit. Many Queensland Fusions have the roof extended, either in hardtop or canvas in order to get better shade from the tropical sun.

Here a shot of an extended hardtop on a Fusion 40
http://i55.tinypic.com/wlf9ea.jpg

A soft top extension
http://i51.tinypic.com/1imuc0.jpg

Personally, I'd preferr to be able to be seated at the helm and look over the top of the cabin roof and be in shade , a la Leopard cockpit.
The Fusion people would probably be horrified if they thought I might butcher their boat's lovely profile.

What do other's think of the helm position, shade protection, visibility through a cabin, etc?

Tuskie

tuskie
7th December 2010, 06:34 AM
Hi all,
The components are large and heavy. They are not easily moved or positioned. The components are large and awkward.

Mating surfaces must be grinded, sanded and prepped before assembly. They require extensive cutting and ďtrimmingĒ, over 150 mm along whole edges on some components, before they fit accurately. This is difficult and time consuming.

Fusions donít need an overall fair and paint as most kits do, but the joins require painstaking filling, fairing and gelcoating. Thereís plenty of fairing and painting inside to do.


Some home build photos to illustrate my point:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2exwyvt.jpghttp://i54.tinypic.com/2qaof28.jpg

Lifting the centre roof panel that weighs over 200kg and is over 6 metres long. It can be done without a crane, but took 6 people, 2 winches, 3 snatch blocks and a strong shed frame.
http://i51.tinypic.com/jp9d95.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/qrammq.jpg

The ladies operated the winches, the blokes grunted and strained.

Cheers, Tuskie

Talbot
7th December 2010, 08:30 AM
Visibility through the cabin is a total no-no to me.

Coastal cruising demands looking at lights, and trying to see unlit pots, buoys etc. If you need to look through the cabin, that requires NO lights on down below, and will still cut down on visibility (particularly dead ahead) significantly.

Also cruising in warm climes demands alfresco dining in the cockpit. For a 40ft boat, that cockpit is too small.

lancelots
7th December 2010, 11:31 AM
Personally, I'd preferr to be able to be seated at the helm and look over the top of the cabin roof and be in shade ,

Tuskie

Yep me too I'd love the cockpit and cabin to be two different roof heights for air flow as well as vision, good thought. I'm not a real fan of sticking my head through the hatch style of steering. This may have to be a modification me thinks, if'n I build one.

lancelots
7th December 2010, 11:36 AM
Visibility through the cabin is a total no-no to me.


Nice to see you here Talbot thanks for joining the party (hey that goes for everyone else too, I don't mean to play favorites)

Sully
8th December 2010, 02:32 AM
What do other's think of the helm position, shade protection, visibility through a cabin, etc?

Tuskie

I've actually owned or operated nearly every type. I've also thought for many hours on the subject to decide what to put in my boat. Here are my preferences, worst to best:

http://www.multihullcompany.com/editor/plugins/imagemanager/images/articles/helm2.jpg
Catana, Dual Helm. Horrible! No protection from anything. Good visibility, but who cares? You'll be frozen, sunburned or have cataracts from the exposure.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/7062885/2/istockphoto_7062885-catamaran-helm.jpg
Standard helm on most catamarans. Not bad, but you better have a good bimini and probably a dodger in case it rains. Good visibility.

http://cruising.stuffiminto.com/attachments/free-classifieds/262d1248962440-catalac-10m-catalac-34-catamaran-sale-1809196_6.jpg
Catalac or Fusion style helm. I actually prefer these over standard helms. The visibility is only very slightly impaired and you can always stick your head around to see down the sheer line if you really need to see without any glass reflections. You do get used to those reflections from the glass and your mind is able to filter them out. I think Catalac got it right with an opening window forward of the helm. You can keep all your electronics dry inside the boat this way. Having a hard bimini over one of these helms makes it the next best thing to a fully inside helm.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d5NrH57d5Ug/SjBbHdGPsII/AAAAAAAAFzk/_x-4bAGUHb4/s400/Atlantic+42+helm.jpg
The best helms of all, IMO. Need perfect visibility and sail handling single handed? Go outside. Need to be warm or dry or whatever? Step inside.

jkd
8th December 2010, 03:26 AM
All my cat sailing to date has been in warm climates and I find I cannot live without some wind in my face. I have spent my fair share of driving monomarains wishing for another layer of clothing though.:rolleyes:
I guess it comes down to where you plan to sail. I could live with the outboard helm stations or the (somewhat raised) helm behind the bulkhead with a bimini overhead but looking through the salon with limited or no air flow is not for me.;)

John

Yoga O
8th December 2010, 03:50 AM
What do other's think of the helm position, shade protection, visibility through a cabin, etc?

Tuskie

I was going to leave this alone, but since Sully went and spouted his opinions...

Maine Cat 41 wins hands down! ;)

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27462#post27462

Fair Winds,
Mike

lancelots
8th December 2010, 03:55 AM
I don’t mind the dodger with the new semi solids they’re great and removable for air in the tropics, installable for comfort in the weather. But without the two levels it just seems claustrophobic. Plus with the right set up you can create a nice little dashboard area where you can put stuff to allow it to fall overboard J

I’m afraid the jigsaw would be coming out for the fusion lid!

lancelots
8th December 2010, 03:57 AM
I was going to leave this alone, but since Sully went and spouted his opinions...

Maine Cat 41 wins hands down! ;)

Fair Winds,
Mike

By all means Yoga please smash up a couple of picks for us all to ogle and compare in the thread

Tropic Cat
8th December 2010, 04:00 AM
I also like the look of the Main Cat, but it would last about 3 minutes here in the tropics as the need for a dry home like environment was never a consideration in it's design. It does seem to sail real well.

IMHO, in the tropics, an enclosed cabin with the ability to run A/C or a heater. (it was 33 degrees here last night) a bimini to block the sun, a helm position providing unobstructed forward view (with boom clearance) would be preferable.

Yoga O
8th December 2010, 04:07 AM
I also like the look of the Main Cat, but it would last about 3 minutes here in the tropics as the need for a dry home like environment was never a consideration in it's design. It does seem to sail real well.

IMHO, in the tropics, an enclosed cabin with the ability to run A/C. a bimini to block the sun, a helm position providing unobstructed forward view would be preferable.

???? We have lived in everything from snow-storms to full-on summer days from Maine to Trinidad. If anything, this boat was totally built for the tropical environment.

Very cool at anchor, AC available when in the marina, dry in storms, warm when Florida gets crazy cold, etc, etc.

Fair Winds,
Mike

smj
8th December 2010, 09:15 PM
I have to agree with YogaO. In the summer our open bridgedeck salon is much cooler on the hook than a bridgedeck cabin and in the winter when sunny is a solarium. When it rains it is nice to have the mini salon down below.
Tha visibility from the helm cannot be beat greatly enhancing the sailing experience.

lancelots
8th December 2010, 09:44 PM
I have to agree with YogaO.

I shan't be cutting the entire cabin off of the fusion though:eek:

andrei9812
21st December 2010, 02:53 AM
[quote=tuskie;29292]Lancelots,
There have been a few Fusions that have been assembled and fitted out in Thailand. I'm not sure of current pricing and whether the savings would be worth the effort. I would definitely recommend being close to the job the whole time. The outfit that seems to be the most experienced with Fusion builds in Thailand is Yachting Siam:
http://www.yachtingsiam.com/


yachting Siam have closed their business, right now in Thailand, Serenity is building 2 Fusion....

andrei9812
21st December 2010, 02:59 AM
What do other's think of the helm position, shade protection, visibility through a cabin, etc?



In my opinion this is the best


http://www.fusioncats.co.nz/01_images/interior/_MG_7362b.jpg

Yoga O
21st December 2010, 03:34 AM
How do you figure this minor mod from a Catana's "Rambo" helm position, plus the huge amount of blind spot is the best?

It's hard to illustrate, but here are two examples of the view from underneath the hardtop and the centrally located helm. The strataglass window/curtains can be easily rolled down/up depending on the wx.

2484
Looking forward with the curtain rolled up.

2485
Looking aft with the "back door" curtain removed and two rear curtains in place (wasn't very warm that day and the wind was a bit behind us).

So you end up with protection from the sun/rain/snow with the hard top, total flexibility with your exposure to the wind, AND total 360 degree visibility whether the curtains are up or down.

Fair Winds,
Mike

Yoga O
21st December 2010, 03:39 AM
BTW, when I look a bit more closely at the image link you provided andrei, I see the ignition and tachs for the engines, but no throttle or transmission controls, or if they do exist at the starboard helm position, you would have to reach through the wheel!?!

Fair Winds,
Mike

paulrack
21st December 2010, 07:19 AM
Hi Mike

Where were those pictures taken, what is all that green stuff o the water?

Cheers

andrei9812
21st December 2010, 07:23 AM
[quote=Yoga O;29982]How do you figure this minor mod from a Catana's "Rambo" helm position, plus the huge amount of blind spot is the best?



Catana, Outremer, all are ''Rembo'' helm position for sure you are Schwarzenegger fan ::)

andrei9812
21st December 2010, 07:27 AM
Hi Mike

Where were those pictures taken, what is all that green stuff o the water?

Cheers



Paul is a Schwarzenegger movie, remember Mike is a big fan :rolleyes:

Yoga O
21st December 2010, 02:30 PM
Hi Mike

Where were those pictures taken, what is all that green stuff o the water?

Cheers

Paul,

The pictures were taken in the "Dismal Swamp" that runs from Virginia to North Carolina on the East Coast of the US. It is a scenic off-shoot of the Intra-Coastal Waterway (ICW) that is also sailboat friendly for boats drawing less than 7 feet.

The "green stuff" is some sort of algae(?), that we kept thinking was either split pea soup or guacamole. It accumulates in the Dismal Swamp in part because there is not much of a flow. Also, the water color looks like coffee from the tannins leached out of the leaves and tree bark.

andrei, just to set the record straight, the Rambo movies were Sylvester Stallonne, not Schwartzenegger(sp?)! ;)

Fair Winds,
Mike

tuskie
22nd December 2010, 12:40 AM
So you end up with protection from the sun/rain/snow with the hard top, total flexibility with your exposure to the wind, AND total 360 degree visibility whether the curtains are up or down.

Fair Winds,
Mike

Thanks for the graphic illustrations Mike.

I certainly concurr that a moderately raised helm, centrally or just off-centre and under a hard top bimimi with removable front clears is the preferred setup for cruising in uncomfortably hot, wet or cold climates.

If all your cruising is done in the localities used to shoot production cat brochures: you know, calm with gentle wind and sun and lots of models in white bikinis, then then exposed "sun deck" flybridge or twin aft controls might be more suitable.

Most of the cats with the twin aft controls that I have seen are used for club or regatta type racing. Or at least owned by a skipper with a sail racing past. The principle advantage of the twin helms is that it allow a better view of the sails, so that the helmsman can quickly adjust course or order a sail trim by the crew. Proponents of twin helms justify the discomfort by saying that "on long passages the boat is steered by autopilot anyway".

At least with a Fusion kit, a grinder and some bravery, the builder is able to set up a helm position to their individual requirements or whim.

lancelots
22nd December 2010, 04:18 AM
At least with a Fusion kit, a grinder and some bravery, the builder is able to set up a helm position to their individual requirements or whim.

And hopefully a raised hard top bimimi with removable front clears :)

paulrack
22nd December 2010, 02:14 PM
H Mike, Thanks for that feedback, must be amazing to have places like that to go to. I just have the wild Atlantic where I am at the moment. Is it just on the surface or can it get sucked into the engine cooling system?

Cheers

Yoga O
22nd December 2010, 05:34 PM
Yes, it is just on the surface, no problem at all. The swamp has lots of logs to look out for and it can be great 'fun' when you meet a catamaran heading the other way. Also, not much in the way of sailing as the canal is not only narrow, but the trees block most of the wind.

Fair Winds,
Mike

44C
23rd January 2011, 09:50 PM
Thanks Sully.

Have looked at Orams and Easys and they have many advantages. I don't wish to upset any of their devotees, many of whom are regular contributers to this forum.

From my perspective, I have discounted them from the new kit or secondhand buy list for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the hulls of each are relatively cheap to construct, but the cost of fitout and rigging and sails and anchor equipment and trampolines and fridges and electronics, etc are the same for all cats. In short, what I am saying is build a cheap hull if you want to fit out cheaply. If you want a quality fitout then do it to a quality hull.

I don't personally believe a ply or duflex boat is high quality. I know that this will result in the usual howls of outrage! I know that there are long lived examples of these forms of construction. But, this is a Fusion thread and most Fusion owners or prospective owners are attracted to the design in large part because of the construction materials used. I know that a properly constructed and maintained ply or duflex boat will not allow water ingress and therefore won't rot, IN THEORY. In theory, the rules of the road should also prevent road accidents and condoms should also prevent pregnancy. But in real life..... Fact is, the waterproofing layer over the balsa or plywood on both designs is very thin and vulnerable. Fact is, I've seen plenty of rooten wood in all sorts of boats, many owned by people who thought that their boat was constructed properly and the wood would not rot. Myself included.

Four words: "NO WOOD, NO ROT"

Secondly, the ease of construction of Orams and Easys IMHO have resulted in design compromises such as sharp chines and flat bottomed hulls. I don't profess to be an expert in hydrodynamics but no designer of multihulls that I know of has chosen these design features when using a medium such as fibreglass, which allows unlimited design freedom. Don't get me wrong, both designers (Oram and Snell) are successful in producing easily constructed boats that seem to perform quite well.

Horses for courses. These particular horses aren't for me.

Cheers, Tuskie

In theory foam doesn't delaminate too.... I looked into the Fusion pretty thouroughly, even raced against one in an Oram boat. A smaller, much cheaper Oram boat, with a second-hand rig, and dacron sails. Which absolutlely thrashed the Fusion (even with it's carbon sails). Sailed higher and faster upwind, faster on all points of sail. In one race we took 4 hours, they took 6.

So the design compromises Bob has taken do seem to work.

One reason moulded boats don't have chines, is that they are not as easy to mould as curves. Every design has it's compromises.

Vacuum infusion is touted as the be all and end all in acheiving good glass to resin ratios. But with vacuum you can only achieve around 10-12 psi, less if it's hot, before the resin "boils".

Duflex has excess resin squeezed out using hydraulic presses. Unlimited pressure is available, and it produces resin/glass ratios that are pretty much unbeatable.

Which is why a 44' duflex boat can turn out to be a couple of tonnes lighter than a 40' Fusion. So you can have a smaller, cheaper rig, smaller cheaper sails, smaller cheaper motors, yet you still go faster.

I also wonder how many Duflex boats you have seen with rot? You claim to have seen it in all sorts of boats..... I've tried to find any, but not so far. I know for a fact that NONE of Bob Oram's boats have suffered from any kind of rot due to water ingress into the core. Bob's first Duflex boat is around 20 years old now, and still cruising....

44C
23rd January 2011, 09:57 PM
The boys at Stallion Marine at Yandina do excellent work and will happily discuss different designs and construction materials.

One of the advantages of a custom or semi-custom build is the ability to get things just the way you want.

Some people, for example like the Fusion 40 cockpit roof just the way it comes, straight back off the cabin and half way over the cockpit. Many Queensland Fusions have the roof extended, either in hardtop or canvas in order to get better shade from the tropical sun.

Here a shot of an extended hardtop on a Fusion 40
http://i55.tinypic.com/wlf9ea.jpg

A soft top extension
http://i51.tinypic.com/1imuc0.jpg

Personally, I'd preferr to be able to be seated at the helm and look over the top of the cabin roof and be in shade , a la Leopard cockpit.
The Fusion people would probably be horrified if they thought I might butcher their boat's lovely profile.

What do other's think of the helm position, shade protection, visibility through a cabin, etc?

Tuskie

How would the helmsman dump the mainsheet in an emergency?

lancelots
24th January 2011, 07:55 AM
In theory foam doesn't delaminate too.... I looked into the Fusion pretty thouroughly, even raced against one in an Oram boat. A smaller, much cheaper Oram boat, with a second-hand rig, and dacron sails. Which absolutlely thrashed the Fusion (even with it's carbon sails). Sailed higher and faster upwind, faster on all points of sail. In one race we took 4 hours, they took 6.

So the design compromises Bob has taken do seem to work.

One reason moulded boats don't have chines, is that they are not as easy to mould as curves. Every design has it's compromises.

Vacuum infusion is touted as the be all and end all in acheiving good glass to resin ratios. But with vacuum you can only achieve around 10-12 psi, less if it's hot, before the resin "boils".

Duflex has excess resin squeezed out using hydraulic presses. Unlimited pressure is available, and it produces resin/glass ratios that are pretty much unbeatable.

Which is why a 44' duflex boat can turn out to be a couple of tonnes lighter than a 40' Fusion. So you can have a smaller, cheaper rig, smaller cheaper sails, smaller cheaper motors, yet you still go faster.

I also wonder how many Duflex boats you have seen with rot? You claim to have seen it in all sorts of boats..... I've tried to find any, but not so far. I know for a fact that NONE of Bob Oram's boats have suffered from any kind of rot due to water ingress into the core. Bob's first Duflex boat is around 20 years old now, and still cruising....




I don't mean to Dis your ride man

But not all of us are into racing, lighter, faster, balsa, no thanks.

The way the Fusion goes together the tanks in the sole of each hull glue into a section of solid glass below the water line, I would have no fear beaching one of these, it's a pretty solid set up which is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I'm not going to bash it around but I don't want to have to baby it either. and (insert Diety)............... Forbid that I do strike something then I just wouldn't trust a balsa sole. If your decision is to trust this balsa stuff so be it solid Grp below and foam above the waterline it is for me.:)

tuskie
24th January 2011, 10:42 AM
How would the helmsman dump the mainsheet in an emergency?
That would be the main sheet to the traveller, just aft of the helm, next to the winch, on the left side of photo.

tuskie
24th January 2011, 11:13 AM
[quote=44C;31476
I also wonder how many Duflex boats you have seen with rot? You claim to have seen it in all sorts of boats..... I've tried to find any, but not so far. I know for a fact that NONE of Bob Oram's boats have suffered from any kind of rot due to water ingress into the core. Bob's first Duflex boat is around 20 years old now, and still cruising....[/quote]

Only one or two. There's one in the Noosa River at the moment, another brand of kit boat, amateur built. Rot around deck hatches due to improper edge sealing, nothing major (owner hopes).

I don't have much experience with duflex boats, never owned one nor spent time on one. This is the reason that i'm dubious of it as a boat building. Fear of the unknown is a rational stance IMHO.

A couple of questions about Duflex. Is it waterproof? No ifs or buts. Yes or no? ATL (the manufacturers) won't put this in writing.

What is the thickness of the epoxy and glass skin that separates the balsa from the outside world?

Lastly, how do you know that NONE of Bob Oram's boats have ever suffered from wood rot? Did Bob tell you?

I have been told by several boat manufacturers that their boats don't rot, are guaranteed against rot, etc etc. Rubbish! Having lived in Cairns for many years the idea of rot proof wooden boats is a standing joke. Several Cairns boat builders, such as Hooker Boats, who build pro fishing dories build completely wood free fibreglass boats. Sorry mate, "No wood, No rot".

44C
24th January 2011, 09:06 PM
You know of "only one or two"? Well is it one, or two? Seems like such a low number would be easy enough to remember..... if it were true.

I know NONE of Bob's boats have suffered rot because I know virtually all the owners. Bob stays in contact with them, and he lives 5 minutes from my place.

The thickness of the glass is whatever you specify. ATL will manufacture to order.

Suggesting Duflex is a second-rate material, on the basis of not knowing anything about it doesn't seem a rational stance to me.

Your "no ifs or buts" question is pretty stupid IMO. Is fibreglass waterproof? "No ifs or buts" Used properly, it is, of course.

Standard practice with Duflex is to fill the weave, and paint, and yes it is waterproof. Polyurethane paints are more waterproof and longer lasting than gel-coats too.

And speaking of waterproof - is vinylester waterproof? Why do you think boatbuilding companies use vinylester instead of epoxy? Given that epoxy is stronger in both primary bonds and secondary bonds, and is more waterproof, there is only one reason - vinylester is cheaper.

But it's OK, you can paint on some epoxy below the waterline, to keep the water out......

If you really think foam doesn't rot you probably should do more research. It certainly can (and has) turn to mush, even if the process is not the same. It will also delaminate far more easily than balsa - sheer strength is less then half, and it will dent more easily - compression strength is less than 1/3, and will produce a less structurally stiff boat.

44C
24th January 2011, 09:12 PM
I don't mean to Dis your ride man

But not all of us are into racing, lighter, faster, balsa, no thanks.

The way the Fusion goes together the tanks in the sole of each hull glue into a section of solid glass below the water line, I would have no fear beaching one of these, it's a pretty solid set up which is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I'm not going to bash it around but I don't want to have to baby it either. and (insert Diety)............... Forbid that I do strike something then I just wouldn't trust a balsa sole. If your decision is to trust this balsa stuff so be it solid Grp below and foam above the waterline it is for me.:)


I have no fear beaching my boat - just spent 5 weeks in Hill inlet, drying out twice a day....

I also hit a log around 12" diameter at around 10 knots with no damage whatsoever, excepting the rudder kickup sheer dowel broke as it is meant to. I'll admit hitting stuff at 10 knots in a Fusion is unlikely to be a problem either but for entirely different reasons.....

I'm not into racing, but I am into sailing, not motoring.

44C
24th January 2011, 10:20 PM
Some interesting reading:

http://marinesurvey.com/yacht/material.htm

"The fact is that foam cored laminates are extremely vulnerable to impact damage, and are highly prone to core separation. Our examination of balsa cores revealed that they, too, fared much better than foam cores. The advantage of balsa is that it has both superior bonding strength and superior shear strength. Whereas foam is very weak against inter laminar shearing forces, balsa is quite strong. This is easy to understand because we all understand how wood is weak with the grain, but very strong again st the grain.
We have all heard the hype that foam cored panels are stronger than solid laminates. What you may not have heard is that cored panels are only stronger if they are flat! Curved cored panels are decidedly weaker than solid glass panels, particularly when compressive loads are applied in shear mode. Most foam cored panels take very poorly to bending. The "S" shaped reverse curves of the typical sailboat hull is a case in point, and accounts for why so many failures occur in sailboats. Here we see that the shape of the panel has everything to do with the performance of cores."

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0eQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=foam+core+rot+delamination&source=bl&ots=Fptw5hHRrT&sig=jumQP8O7uIdihwdElf1jX6OENKM&hl=en&ei=zuc9TbexC4eGvAPypfy4Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=foam%20core%20rot%20delamination&f=false

lancelots
25th January 2011, 02:08 AM
44C,


Sure balsa has some advantages as does foam, Iím not about to get into the semantics of compression and tensile forces of foam verses balsa as this in itself is a complex subject it is enough to say that when you take a panel that has been constructed flat and bend it into a curve then you change the structural integrity of that panel regardless of whether it is foam or balsa.
When a panel or component is built in its finished form then you are maintaining the engineer designed loading forces and strengths.
Quoting thirty year old literature on whether balsa is better than foam certainly does not take into account the improvements that have been made with foam.


Foam built boats have their advantages as do balsa boats, Iím sure that your Oram is a wonderful boat that you are very proud of but it does not have the advantages in the build process that the Fusion has.


These are some of the advantages that I started this thread to talk about, the build process, and the manufacturing process specific to the Fusion. Also to debate the specific design and what modifications could be made to the Fusion in order to make it the boat for me or the boat for any one else interested in them.


I appreciate your input about the core materials but I highly doubt that Fusion is going to switch over to balsa


If you wish to enter into a debate about the advantages of balsa over foam Iím sure that there are many avenues where you can press your point, however this thread is for Fusion boats something that Tuskie has been of an immense help with the first hand explanations of build process. On the set up needed to build the fusion and some of the things the shiny brochure does not explain. I am deeply appreciative of him for taking the time at my request to join this forum and add his first hand experience in Fusion building.


I appreciate everyoneís input on the Fusions and alternatives, and yours on the possible alternative of an Oram however at the moment I feel that the Oram may be above my abilities for a first time build project perhaps next time round.


I donít mean to disrespect you or your choice of vessel and core material. But I donít want to see the valuable input that Tuskie has been adding side tracked away into a debate about balsa and foam.


However I do appreciate your comment about dumping the main sheet perhaps you could offer some advice on how we could modify in order to facilitate this procedure, which would be very much appreciated.


Kindest Regards


Lancelots :)

44C
25th January 2011, 04:02 AM
Sorry Lancelot's, if you feel I have sidetracked your thread. I simply couldn't just ignore someone saying Duflex boats like Orams, Schionnings, Spirited's and many more, are poor quality boats, simply because that person has no experience using Duflex.

Especially when he is stating that a boat with vinylester resin - which is ONLY used instead of epoxy because it is CHEAPER - it is inferior in every other way - and has moved it's manufacturing base from Australia to SE Asia again, ONLY because it is cheaper, is somehow a superior quality product.

The quality of the finished boat will depend on how well YOU build it and fit it out. Even with a Fusion, if to a lesser extent.

Re the mainsheet - I have all my mainsail controls central on the rear beam. They are all quickly accessible from anywhere in the cockpit, or either helm station.

I have this photo: (Which was actually taken to show how close some dickhead anchored)


http://i55.tinypic.com/140g00o.jpg


Traveler and mainsheet lines are right next to each other, the main IS NOT on a self tailing winch (!!!) and is cleated off on a camcleat so just a flick of the tail will release it.

Don't know if this could be adapted to a Fusion, but I do know it is very easy to use, and it works.

lancelots
25th January 2011, 07:47 AM
Itís all good 44C


Weíre all still mates, I have actually conversed quite a bit with Fusion on whether they would produce in epoxy for the hulls etc (actually with carbon fibre and Kevlar cloth treated with carbon Nano tubes which I would supply to them) and the talks will be ongoing as soon as I get through a few other difficulties that I am facing at the moment.



Vinylester is my second choice resin, Polyester doesnít even get a look in, in my opinion, which is in fact one of the reasons I am considering a Fusion. So many cats are done in Polyester, Vynylester may not be as good as Epoxy but it will do the job for me if I have to settle


Nice setup for the Mainsheet more food for thought!



Really as Tuskie has pointed out that whole not being able to see over the cabin is a non event for me as well so that would be a jigsaw cut to start with. I had a look at one at Mooloolaba and it seems a little claustrophobic for a small cockpit to be that closed in (apart from visibility concerns


As to Oram designs there is no reason I couldnít make one with foam epoxy sheets hmmm now youíve got me thinking.



Itís really a manpower vs money decision the Fusions come premium priced because much of the work is done, which appeals to me at this stage, but that's why we discuss these things at length with our mates isn't it big decisions deserve much thought and and many opinions.



Good Luck and
Kindest Regards to all

tuskie
25th January 2011, 08:09 AM
I simply couldn't just ignore someone saying Duflex boats like Orams, Schionnings, Spirited's and many more, are poor quality boats, simply because that person has no experience using Duflex.

Especially when he is stating that a boat with vinylester resin - which is ONLY used instead of epoxy because it is CHEAPER - it is inferior in every other way - and has moved it's manufacturing base from Australia to SE Asia again, ONLY because it is cheaper, is somehow a superior quality product.



I agree with Lancelots about being sidetracked. 44C obviously loves his Orams and has done a great job in building one.

But mate, where did I say that Orams, Schionnings, etc. are "poor quality boats"? I did say that I personally don't trust Duflex. To be specific, I don't trust the standard thickness epoxy over balsa type of Duflex. I believe that it can be specified thicker and even with a range of foam cores. If 44C thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread, great, but I don't. Perhaps my opinion will change, one day.

Vinylester is cheaper than most epoxies. Certainly it is cheaper than any that I would use in boat building. But cheapness is NOT the only criterion that attracts its use. It does not pose the risk to users of acute allergies that have cut short many epoxy boat building projects.

The Fusion 40 has a gelcoated, solid layup of sufficient thickness for me to consider it to be durable. Yes, it is waterproof, without paint.

Finally, I am not a one-eyed Fusion afficionado. I believe they have several compromises and the odd shortcoming, which I have described in this forum. Like most machines, each model of boat may have pros and cons. Some are better quality, some have price advantage, some are better at one thing but worse at another. The person who is totally convinced that a particular thing is the greatest, cheapest, fastest, ***iest, safest is usually a salesman. Ever tried to have a balanced discussion about outboards with a Mercury rep present? The product they are selling is the absolute best at everything and the opposition products are all problematic or just rubbish. Most owners are prepared to discuss the advantages of their craft as well as its shortcomings.

PS Lancelots,I promise not to ever discuss Duflex or Duflex boats again under the Fusion heading.

tuskie
25th January 2011, 11:15 AM
I'll admit hitting stuff at 10 knots in a Fusion is unlikely to be a problem either but for entirely different reasons.....



Please explain. Are you insinuating that a Fusion 40 is unlikely to reach a speed of 10 knots? Really?

What was that, that just went out the window? Your credibility.

I shall ignore the fact that you have acused me of being a liar, and I can count. I have seen rot in balsa cored boats. However, I'm not always sure whether the material is (that stuff) or some other similiar stuff. I haven't been interested enough to tell the difference. Ask any marine surveyor, wood in boats, sooner or later, rots.

lancelots
25th January 2011, 01:00 PM
Iím certainly not cut and flushed on Fusions just yet either,


Those mavericks are nice and roomy but you guessed it polyester (and some chopped strand as well) I did email and ask if they would do one in epoxy for me and that was a no.


It always seems to be a sort of balance of what you can have and what you canít Iíve actually started to put a spread sheet together with whoís balsa (not for me thanks) whoís polyester (not for me thanks) whoís vynylester (yeah ok) whoís epoxy (we like that stuff) and put in other real deal breakers like fly bridge setup for day sailing (no thanks) etc etc.


It narrows things down a bit, but Iím still chewin the cud.


And then we come to making the beast yourself. And the issues become more complicated.


With Derek Kelsalls method and the plentiful pre routed sheet designs
Of course I could always make a Fusion.
:confused:


Good Luck and
Kindest Regards to all

Yoga O
25th January 2011, 05:39 PM
I have this photo: (Which was actually taken to show how close some dickhead anchored)


http://i55.tinypic.com/140g00o.jpg

44C,

Sorry, I am having problems understanding Aussie slang. ;) Why did you anchor right in front of this guy? :eek:;):rolleyes:;)

Mike

44C
26th January 2011, 08:29 PM
Amazingly, he had actually dropped his anchor about 50 metres in front of us. then he paid out all this green rope till he ended up right behind. I had actually shortened up on our chain to get further away when I took this shot.

44C
26th January 2011, 08:52 PM
Please explain. Are you insinuating that a Fusion 40 is unlikely to reach a speed of 10 knots? Really?

What was that, that just went out the window? Your credibility.

I shall ignore the fact that you have acused me of being a liar, and I can count. I have seen rot in balsa cored boats. However, I'm not always sure whether the material is (that stuff) or some other similiar stuff. I haven't been interested enough to tell the difference. Ask any marine surveyor, wood in boats, sooner or later, rots.

I asked how many DUFLEX boats you had seen with rot. You said you'd seen one or two.

Now your saying it may have been one, (or maybe two) and it may not have been Duflex......

Yeah, what was that going out the window?

The fact is like foam, all balsa is not the same. Which is why I asked if you had seen a DUFLEX boat with rot. I've looked a a hell of a lot of them, and have NEVER - repeat N E V E R seen one with rot.


Getting back to the topic - the pro's and con's of the Fusion.

Obviously the big pro is the fact that the most daunting job to the amature - fairing and painting - is taken care of, and you know it is a well finished, nice looking boat.

But you do pay for it. I know a few people who have simply paid a professional team to fair and paint their kits - a 40 foot boat was done by the same team who do Stallion marine's boats to an excellent standard, for $30,000 Au.

And the fact is, it really isn't that hard to fair and paint it yourself. It's really not rocket science, it's just a lot of work.

The plus is, you then get to choose the quality of the paint, instead of relying on a builder who is always going to be looking at his profit margins when selecting materials.

Another advantage of the other kits is their customizability. Want it a foot longer? Or wider? More headroom? Talk to the designer. Bob Oram was more than happy for me to increase my headroom, (I'm 6'8") and overall beam. He re-engineered the mast and rear beam unidirectional flanges at no extra charge.

Other have opted for more vertical windows, to reduce heat. Extended cockpit roofs, etc, etc.

With a moulded boat, you are much more limited.

lancelots
1st February 2011, 04:27 AM
Hi Tuskie,
Listen mate Iím interested to know the height of that shed that your mate built for the job of building his Fusion. Would you be able to find out at all? And was it high enough or did it make life a struggle.

lancelots
2nd February 2011, 02:38 AM
And the fact is, it really isn't that hard to fair and paint it yourself. It's really not rocket science, it's just a lot of work.


That's the bit a lot of hard work.

What do you think of the Kelsall Catamarans alternative you get a nice fair finish straight of the table?

Plus you can construct differing panels, weights, strength for different places.

Good Luck and
Kindest Regards to all

tuskie
2nd February 2011, 08:22 AM
Hi Tuskie,
Listen mate Iím interested to know the height of that shed that your mate built for the job of building his Fusion. Would you be able to find out at all? And was it high enough or did it make life a struggle.


The shed is 4.8 metres to the underside of the beams on the low side. Being a skillion roof in slopes up 0.3 metres to 5.1 metres. It is made of secondhand steel beams and purlins that have been bolted together.

The boat is sitting in the jig and has the mini-keels fitted. The mini-keels are usually fitted first or last. If it is done first, they are attached with the hull bottoms upside down and this is probably easier. Unfortunately, they make the whole boat 500mm higher than if no keels are fitted. There is only about 0.6 clearance between the top of the boat's roof so there is not enough room for a crane jib and shackles, etc. The lower sections of the boat can be placed with a crane, but the roof panels had to be positioned manually. To get the boat out at completion, it's either roll out of the shed and then lift (not possible in our situation) or dismantle the roof and lift off the jig.

A useful shed, if space allows is the "container shelter"
http://i51.tinypic.com/1z1snmg.jpg

There are a number of manufacturers and they come in 8 metre spans for 40 foot containers. The containers themselves are useful for storage and if well lit and ventilated, make great temporary workshops. The whole lot can then be sold after project completion. Just a thought.

PS Recently it would be great to have a waterproof and air conditioned model!

lancelots
2nd February 2011, 10:45 AM
A useful shed, if space allows is the "container shelter"


There are a number of manufacturers and they come in 8 metre spans for 40 foot containers. The containers themselves are useful for storage and if well lit and ventilated, make great temporary workshops. The whole lot can then be sold after project completion. Just a thought.


They look nice, very nice indeed.

tuskie
2nd February 2011, 11:44 PM
What do you think of the Kelsall Catamarans alternative you get a nice fair finish straight of the table?


;) As a friendly suggestion, how about posting comments and opinions about Kelsall cats under a "Kelsall" owner forum heading. Who knows we may even get an "Oram" heading as well.

I promise to support the new forum by quoting and posting Derek Kelsall's assessment of composite core materials, particularly balsa, whatever brand.

lancelots
3rd February 2011, 12:57 AM
;) As a friendly suggestion, how about posting comments and opinions about Kelsall cats under a "Kelsall" owner forum

Way ahead of you good friend I asked management to start a new thread right after I posted that:)

lancelots
3rd February 2011, 02:46 AM
A useful shed, if space allows is the "container shelter"

There are a number of manufacturers and they come in 8 metre spans for 40 foot containers.

Spotted 10 and 12 metre spans here

http://www.shelterstation.com.au/

You can even get ends for them.

Tuskie do you think that the dust from the dirt floor would create a problem in construction?

Perhaps "Poor Mans Concrete" crusher (cracker) dust mixed with cement spread then hosed down to set it would be a solution. Still dusty but not as bad.

This may well make construction of a Fusion even more attractive lowering the shed cost substantially. I did talk to Fusion and they said the containers would have to be returned I wonder if some deal could be struck to pre-purchase containers for packing to make this all so much easier.

I wonder how easy to disassemble they are for when you want to get a crane for lifting panels into place.

tuskie
3rd February 2011, 04:55 AM
Dust from the dirt floor is probably not such a problem in most situations; the ground can be dampened down in dry, windy weather or covered in old carpet or shade cloth. The process of boat building (cutting, grinding, sanding) makes the most dust and provision for dust extraction and capture is a worthwhile investment in my opinion.

Used shipping containers can be purchased or rented from several local companies. The span height on most of these container shelters seems to be quite high, so it may be possible to lift roof sections into place without dismantling the structure. The usual Franna type cranes are quite manouverable but still need at least a metre or so overhead space.

If you have plenty of room and a fairly level site, a dismantleable gantry would be the way to go. I have stolen a pic from the Bosanova Fusion website, (I hope they don't mind) which is a "ball terror". Check out the room to move. They have a 40 ft container for storage but the structure is free standing on posts.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2u6idjs.jpg

lancelots
6th February 2011, 12:15 AM
Dust from the dirt floor is probably not such a problem in most situations; the ground can be dampened down in dry, windy weather or covered in old carpet or shade cloth.


Good point Tuskie Perhaps rolls of weed mat would be best and cheapest solution for the floor. of course a few minimal concrete footings would help for stands

I'm certainly thinking that a gantry set up would be ideal and might be worth investigating however that depends on how many lifts you need to do? vs buying an old yard crane the parts aren't particularly heavy.

How many lifts do you think you would get a non slew crane in for?

tuskie
6th February 2011, 08:12 AM
How many lifts do you think you would get a non slew crane in for?

That's a hard one. I've been told that some Fusion 40's have been made using man power alone for the lifting. You'd need plenty of mates with strong backs and/or plenty of beer. There would also be some annoying waits til help arrived.

If you had limited help for the lifts there could be dozens of pieces that require the use of a crane or gantry. Because most components require "trimming" there is the need to trial fit, trim, reposition, mark, trim and refit, etc. This can be accomplished in most cases by simply raising to trim and lowering to fit, but could be quite expensive if paying for crane hire during the process. The alternative is to create templates to mark the components with. These would also be quite large also.

In summary, I think that it would be best to have some form of crane or gantry on site for the initial assembly and then for later fitting of engines.
Or lots of mates on rapid response callout.

Concrete footings or even a slab would be great to support the assembly jig, but because the supported weight is not high then wooden stakes or star pickets driven into the ground will do the job. These are easier to remove in a temporary build site.

The alternative to all these issues, that I am considering, is to buy one already fitted and floating. There's a few on the market now, and they're not selling like hot cakes. But that's probably another thread.

lancelots
7th February 2011, 03:18 AM
This is the sort of thing that could solve problems and then you sell it afterwards perhaps even on this forum.


Yard cranes


http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0002-75988/engineering-and-toolmaking/international-articulated-yard-crane?spr=true

http://www.plantmachinerysales.com.au/buy/details.aspx?R=9457745&__Qpb=true&Cr=3&__Ns=p_StockPrice_Decimal|0&__N=1713%201552%201602%201601%204294957726%2042949 56372&silo=1701&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=11&__sid=12D04B1494E8 (http://www.plantmachinerysales.com.au/buy/details.aspx?R=9457745&__Qpb=true&Cr=3&__Ns=p_StockPrice_Decimal%7C0&__N=1713%201552%201602%201601%204294957726%2042949 56372&silo=1701&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=11&__sid=12D04B1494E8)

http://www.plantmachinerysales.com.au/buy/details.aspx?__sid=12E003638856&R=9474523&__Nne=3&__Nrs=collection%28%29/record[not%28p_RecordID_String%20%3D%20%229474549%22%29]&__Ns=p_PhotoList_String|1||p_Make_String|0&__N=1552+4294912244&Cr=0& (http://www.plantmachinerysales.com.au/buy/details.aspx?__sid=12E003638856&R=9474523&__Nne=3&__Nrs=collection%28%29/record%5bnot%28p_RecordID_String%20%3D%20%22947454 9%22%29%5d&__Ns=p_PhotoList_String%7C1%7C%7Cp_Make_String%7C0&__N=1552+4294912244&Cr=0&)

same as Franna's just older and smaller

lancelots
7th February 2011, 03:59 AM
Even something like this if you have property to build on itís a simple tilt tray to your site and no more worries (Iíd make sure it runs and the crane works of course).


http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0003-75988/engineering-and-toolmaking/09-1988-hino-4-x-2-crane-truck?spr=true

lancelots
9th February 2011, 01:14 AM
Iíve seen some pretty wild set ups up north Landcruisers converted into forklifts and drilling rigs, tractors that have been turned into cranes with 44 gallon drums on the front as counter weights, Iím not suggesting anyone does anything dangerous ;) but I reckon it would be pretty simple to get around the crane with a bit of steel and a welder and an old tractor perhaps with one of those portable winches, they not meant for lifting but weíre not talking huge weights and these things will pull 2000kg so a couple of pulleys to change directions and a block and tackle set up to lift and ďI would be happyĒ (in fact I am eyeing off the front carry all on my tractor now which has regularly carried a 44 full of water) in fact a sort of dolly trailer behind the tractor hooked up to the three point hitch may be all that is needed instant articulated non slew crane.


Iím no engineer so I donít suggest any one follows what is written here but I wonder how hard this would be to achieve it would make it a lot easier and cheaper to build my Fusion if I could. :rolleyes:

Sully
9th February 2011, 02:53 AM
Didn't you guys have problems with blowing rains coming into the boat shed set up with a high roof like that between the containers and no end panels?

tuskie
9th February 2011, 07:37 AM
Didn't you guys have problems with blowing rains coming into the boat shed set up with a high roof like that between the containers and no end panels?
Yep!
The amount of rain we've had in Queensland recently has stopped most activities, not just amateur boatbuilding. Luckily we can still engage in my 3 favourite activities not matter what: fishing, drinking and what was the third? LOL

The crew have tried to keep the rain out using tarps and taped plastic to no avail. The owners have also been very concerned about compromising bond strength by applying resin in high humidity. Vinylester, while not as strong as epoxy is less effected by humidity, but still the optimum humidity levels have been hugely exceeded recently.

When it's not raining however, the high roof allows head room for workers, crane space and a cooler worksite.

Lancelot, if you're an inventive engineer and have the room to maneuver the components, any of those crane solutions would work fine.

suggo
4th May 2011, 10:51 AM
We have just been through this wonderful process, with the guidance of Fusion Australia (JG) we were encouraged to build our boat with 2 other non suspecting suckers from Australia with Fusion Catamarans builders and agents in Thailand as advertised on the Fusion La Passion Website which has now conveniently disappeared. Two men by the name of Peter Plant and Michael Grover a company called Yachting Siam. There Reputation in Thailand is well documented and they are well known. What a pity Fusion Australia did not find all this out before we 3 got tangled in their web. 1 boat got finished but not to a good standard and it cost him more than he originally signed the contract and paid in full for. They refused to release the boat without further money. We got out and are slowly finishing the boat off on the water now. The 3rd boat is stuck over there unfinished with Yachting Siam gone missing, not paid rent or wages for months. We have video and photos of work supposedly completed so that we would make our progress payments to them and when we arrived on site to check this out the work was not on our boat and had not been completed. We involved solicitors and were told the pay up or F****ck off. In Thailand they can get away with this the Thais love nothing more than 2 whities fighting over something. The contract that we signed with Yachting Siam was not worth the paper it was written on. 20 months into a 6 month build contract and $60k over contract we pulled the boat out and sacked them.

DO NOT USE THEM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

As for Fusion Australia and PS of Fusion world wide you cannot trust them and you cannot accept their word on anything. They dumped us in it big time and did nothing to help when the SH***t hit the fan. Tried contacting P S in October 2009 and we are still waiting on a reply. As for Fusion Australia. firstly they did not believe us when we told the of what was happening, then they offered to help but when we told them we needed people to go to Thailand and finish the boat he just laughed and denied all knowledge of leading us down this merry path. If you do deal with them keep all correspondence, do not do anything verbally and keep copies. JG is well known in the boating world for being a second hand used car sales man.

We have been living in thailand now for 12 months, having had to get the boat out of the Yachting Siam yard and sailing it unfitted with jury rig and electrics 1200 nautical miles from Samui to Phuket. It has cost us dearly in both money, time and stress levels. The boat is finally getting finished to a standard that we are happy with, we have had to redo most works that were done by Yachting Siam to the point my husband has nick named the boat B2SQ1 (back to square 1). It was not the thai workers that were the problem but the australian foremen and the pommie owners and the total lack of regard to anything.

If you would like to know more let us know. And don't believe the website when it tells you you can be on the water in 6 months it is impossible unless you have 20 workers full time and they wont all fit.

paulrack
4th May 2011, 12:36 PM
That sounds like a terrible process you have been through. I wonder how Fusion Australia could have linked in with such a dodge company and not done their homework properly. I suppose the more boats that are built means they get more royalties. It would be great to hear more details.

suggo
4th May 2011, 03:51 PM
There is so much more that we could tell you, even write a book about it. Fusion Australia did nothing other than have a beer with them in Thailand and then again in Australia when they signed the contracts as agents.

We did travel to Thailand and spoke with Peter Plant re the build and everything seemed ok, it was not until he had our deposit and first payment that things started to go wrong. Then my husband went to live in Thailand so that he could keep an eye on the construction, when he arrived on site un-announced the got very nasty. They banned him from site unless he gave 1 weeks notice of attending. They got caught out having claimed monies from us when the work had not been done. If my husband had not turned up impromptu we would never have known what was happening.

We have correspondence from them (accidently sent) calling us morons and insulting our intelligence, promising all sorts of things and then denying it and once we point out the correspondence prior saying all would be good again. Even had face to face meeting with Mick Grover when he told us there were no problems and he bare faced looked us in the eye and told us our boat would be finished to fusion standard within the contract price by october 2009. We then went on to sell our business and our house to get ready for our big adventure. When we arrived in Thailand to pick up our boat as promised in October it had not been touched for months, there were spiders webbs everywhere. Disappointment is an understatement. Then to add insult to injury they wanted another 10% on our signed contract price or they threatened to go bankrupt and leave us with an unfinished boat and nowhere to get it finished.

For us Fusion Australia Denied ever telling us to go with Yachting Siam and deleted the website from the net. They in fact blaimed boat no3 for introducing us to Yachting Siam when before the start of the boat build we had never even heard of the man we live in NSW and he lives in Western Australia. The costs involved have been horrendous, we were told by Fusion Australia that we could build the boat in Thailand and take it back to Australia as long as we took the boat back out of australia before 12 months we would not have to pay the GST and Import duties but alas another furfy. The government want their money as soon as it hits the aussie waters, more money for nothing. Fusion Australia will tell you what you want to hear to get a sale, as for the boat only weighing 4.5tonne ha ha. This must be the kit weight because it is not the sail away weight, we weighed more than that unfitted, with no fuel and water on board. The whole experience has left a bitter taste in our mouths. We would never build a boat again.

dmmbruce
4th May 2011, 04:32 PM
That is absolutely awful. You certainly have my, and I'm sure everyone else's, total sympathy.

If you compare your experiences with those of Paul Rack in dealing with Maverick it makes it even more extraordinary.

Are there not Trading Standards or similar people in Australia who can tke up your case with Fusion Australia and anyone else that they can get at? I have always thought that Australia is pretty good at controlling wrong doing.

Mike

Rabbi
4th May 2011, 04:53 PM
If it helps your case:
The web never forgets... Check out the "wayback machine" which collects & archives websites worldwide. Fusion website is no exception, it has been recorded since early 2004

Want to see Peter Plant having a drink with the Fusion guys?
http://replay.web.archive.org/20080720134323/http://www.lapassionbyfusion.com/news/21.pdf

Here is a link to their "news" site which features their newsletter, where they frequently refer to Siam Yachts as their agents.
http://replay.web.archive.org/20080206004858/http://www.lapassionbyfusion.com/news.html

Play around a bit, you can find most older versions of their website (any most others).

dmmbruce
4th May 2011, 05:59 PM
Rabbi, off topic I know, but thank-you very much for mentioning that archive site. I had never heard of it. All being well I will be able to recue two clients from the consequences of their mistakes once I know how to use it.

Thanks

Mike

suggo
5th May 2011, 03:10 AM
thanks Guys.

I have tried contacting consumer affairs, department of foreign affairs and trade, a north sydney international lawyer and the Australian consulate in Thailand.

1) Consumer affairs would not give us any guarantees as we were dealing with and Australian Company that gets money paid to an off shore account and the goods were never delivered to Australia. If I could get the other 2 boats involved they may have looked at a national case as 3 people from 3 states were involved but that could not promise anything.

2) Dept of Foreign Affairs and Trade. They actually have a free trade agreement with Thailand for boat building. They did not want to help us as we are only "Individuals" not a company.

3) The Law firm were great with understanding our situation but told us it was useless, investigated PP & YS, found out that they had declared their incomes to the Thai Government and were liquid back in 2008 but had done nothing since (on record).

4) Emailed the australian consulate in Thailand last October, the north sydney law firm told me he would be interested in our case as he had actually spoken with him about it.

I am still waiting for a reply to my email.

I have also spoken with consumer affairs about certain warranty claims that we needed to process and due to the fact that the Australian Companies actually sold the items for our boat to YS and not us directly we have to make our claims via YS, which is an impossibilty as they no longer exist and we don't have a relationship with them at all. So all warranty is out the window also.

I do have email correspondence to back all of this up.

On saying that we have come across certain people and companies in Thailand that have helped us.

Matt Kimball and Mark Horwood of Latitude 8 Yachts
Bob Mott of Composite Catamarans
Top from ChocPaiboon Chandlery in Chalong

To these guys a big thankyou

paulrack
5th May 2011, 08:40 AM
Fascinating to see the "archives" that Rabbi found. I really do feel for you, buying a boat is something most of us do once in a lifetime, it is expensive and probably a dream we have had for many years, in my case since I was 9 years old. The building process should be one of excitement, research and the build up to the launch. You have been dealt a really crap hand. I would love to know what Fusions response is after seeing the archive material. I noticed that the Siam site is still up and running. I hope their criminal behaviour does not have a bad knock on effect on the good builders in Thailand.

Cheers

suggo
5th May 2011, 02:35 PM
Yep you are 100% right. It is a dream, it is a once in a lifetime thing and yes it cost us everything. Sold the house and business to do this.

You are also correct in saying that there are still some decent builders in Thailand but buyer beware, do your own due diligence and listen to the locals and other yachties. What we have learnt by doing this in the last 3 years is amazing. They are not backwards in coming forwards when it comes to dumping on someone that has done the wrong thing when they are trying to build a good name for Thailand.

Rabbi
5th May 2011, 03:54 PM
Yep you are 100% right. It is a dream, it is a once in a lifetime thing and yes it cost us everything. Sold the house and business to do this.

You are also correct in saying that there are still some decent builders in Thailand but buyer beware, do your own due diligence and listen to the locals and other yachties.

Some time ago there was a very long long thread at CF about another italian builder in Thailand, who ripped off two Australians on two similar custom TIKI builds. IIRC one boat was paid almost full but not released, instead seized by the builder and put for sale, but was washed ashore and fell apart before being sold. The customer lost his money and never got a boat. Floowing that incident the other customer of the same yard took his half-finished boat to Australia and finished it off using a local yard - just to find lots of structural issues. If have lost track of that story and the people involved but I don't think anyone was compensated for their losses - although the Thai boatyard was still active at least for some time.

One of the results (to me) was that you need lots of luck when choosing your builder. Because if you get into trouble later nothing and nobody will help you. If you -as a foreigner- try to go to court in these developing countries you won't achieve much. It's simply not a legislation comparable to what people from US/EU/AUS are used to.

Maybe there are decent builders (sure there are) but the savings do not offset the risks of loosing everything.

tuskie
7th May 2011, 08:08 AM
Suggo, thanks for the heads up on some decidedly dodgy dealers. I really hope you are able to put all the dramas that you have described behind you and go on to enjoy your dream. As they say, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. You and your husband must be pretty strong by now!

I seems to me that the "Fusion team" are concentrating on getting sales in many overseas countries, Korea being the latest. Unfortunately, the product quality and amateur builder support seems to be suffering. When an tiny, niche company such as Fusion engages "agents" all over the world to sell and assemble their products there surely will be a lack of "parent supervision". I'm also not sure about the business sense of a small Australian company contracting a multinational company to manufacture components for a New Zealand designed boat in Thailand. These kits are then sold on the international market and assembled by third (or is it forth or fifth?) parties. It's a great business model for dodging the blame if the end buyer isn't happy.

I know of some "quality issues" being experienced by local (Australian) Fusion builders at the moment and am watching very closely on how these issues are resolved.

Don't get me wrong, I think they're a great boat and I'm sure you'll be happy cruising on a Fusion 40. But as I've stated before in this Forum, do your homework carefully, whether building in Thailand or Australia.

suggo
7th May 2011, 09:03 AM
Thanks Tuksie

Hubby is currently on his belly sweating profusely fixing other quality issues at present. The water tanks were not sealed properly to the floor and leak. As you can imagine a fun job in 33degree heat and 60% humidity.

Would love to know what other quality issues are floating around, would be good to have a heads up incase it starts to happen with our boat.

The Korean guy actually begged us to take our boat up to the Korean boat show as we were the closest one to them. JG told us he would give us $40k us to do so and that is via email. The Korean Agent then offered us $10k US to do the same job, so once again discrepancies. We refused to go for a couple of reasons, but the main one was we did not want to help fusion. Until they get their act together and start looking after the customers instead of themselves only why would we.

Keep it going, the more people that know the truth of the matter the less chance of them getting done over as we have been.

We love our boat, she sails well and is comfortable. By the time we sell her someone will get a great boat that has been lovingly maintained and finished off by my husband. My kg's of sweat and tears have gone into her.

paulrack
7th May 2011, 11:14 AM
That does not sound like fun! Do you have some pictures of the boat, I would love to see some. Talking about water tanks, if they are fibreglass do you know if they used food grade epoxy in the tanks?

Have you managed to do any sailing at all with her yet. Hopefully once she is all fixed up she will be better than new and the nightmare you have been through will slowly become a distant memory.

suggo
7th May 2011, 12:06 PM
will get some photos put up when I get somewhere that has better internet connection. The tanks are all done with epoxy. We have taken her down to Penang from Phuket and enjoyed it very much. Just up in Phang Nga bay at the moment trying to get away from the south west monsoon.

thanks again for your support and well wishes. It has been a very trying time.

:eek:::):confused:

tuskie
8th May 2011, 09:15 AM
Arhh! Anchored up on your own Fusion 40 in a protected nook of spactacular Phang Nga bay sipping on an ice cold Singha beer watching the local longtail boats and imagining them chase a British secret agent on a jetski. Your past problems with the "Fusion team" will soon be long distant memories. Cheers!

suggo
14th May 2011, 02:37 PM
photos of aqua dreams at this link https://picasaweb.google.com/jules.steve/AquaDreamsPicturesThailand - comments appreciated.

paulrack
15th May 2011, 11:13 AM
Lovely pictures, thanks for sharing them. Cool cat eyes on the shades.

dmmbruce
15th May 2011, 04:12 PM
photos of aqua dreams at this link https://picasaweb.google.com/jules.steve/AquaDreamsPicturesThailand - comments appreciated.


I hope you are very proud of the boat you made. The pictures are great.

Good luck with the sale.

Mike

44C
1st June 2011, 01:35 PM
Just had a look at a Fusion under construction today. Have to say I was surprised - the sheer panels on this boat were not particularly fair, neither was the rear beam. Also noticed a lot of chop strand mat in the layup. The bows were held on with chop strand tapes!

I was amazed, to say the least.

dmmbruce
1st June 2011, 01:46 PM
Just had a look at a Fusion under construction today. Have to say I was surprised - the sheer panels on this boat were not particularly fair, neither was the rear beam. Also noticed a lot of chop strand mat in the layup. The bows were held on with chop strand tapes!

I was amazed, to say the least.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I haven't built a boat.

Do you mean that the sides of the hull are not smooth? And what is a rear beam, bow I know, but at the rear I thought there was a large strong transverse bulkhead that goes across the back of the cockpit and bonds with the hulls.

What is, and therefore what is the significance of 'chopped strand tape'?

Thanks

Mike

Iamiccle
1st June 2011, 04:21 PM
Lovely boat, very coordinated interior, exterior and name. Really liking the cats eyes too.

44C
1st June 2011, 11:10 PM
Please excuse my ignorance, but I haven't built a boat.

Do you mean that the sides of the hull are not smooth? And what is a rear beam, bow I know, but at the rear I thought there was a large strong transverse bulkhead that goes across the back of the cockpit and bonds with the hulls.

What is, and therefore what is the significance of 'chopped strand tape'?

Thanks

Mike

That's right, the hull sides were quite bumpy. Also the gelcoat was much less glossy than I would have expected. Perhaps their moulds are getting a bit old?

Yes, what I was referring to as the rear beam is the transverse box beam, where the traveller is mounted.

Chopped strand mat (CSM) has very little structural value. The fibres are not aligned, just randomly piled together. I've heard it referred to as the marine equivalent to particle board.

It's surprising (to me) to see it used in a cat (although it's commonly used in mono's), because it adds a lot of weight but little strength.

dmmbruce
1st June 2011, 11:28 PM
That's right, the hull sides were quite bumpy. Also the gelcoat was much less glossy than I would have expected. Perhaps their moulds are getting a bit old?

Yes, what I was referring to as the rear beam is the transverse box beam, where the traveller is mounted.

Chopped strand mat (CSM) has very little structural value. The fibres are not aligned, just randomly piled together. I've heard it referred to as the marine equivalent to particle board.

It's surprising (to me) to see it used in a cat (although it's commonly used in mono's), because it adds a lot of weight but little strength.

Thanks

tuskie
2nd June 2011, 12:56 AM
Just had a look at a Fusion under construction today. Have to say I was surprised - the sheer panels on this boat were not particularly fair, neither was the rear beam. Also noticed a lot of chop strand mat in the layup. The bows were held on with chop strand tapes!

I was amazed, to say the least.

Was this a Hervey Bay builder? If so, he is obviously not constructing according to the Lidgard plans that are supplied to builders. FGI supplies glass, gelcoat and resins to both Fusion and to the builder. In the case of the one (only) construction that I have observed there was not any chop strand mat at all. It's all biax or triax cloth and cloth cut into tapes as per plans. The owner builder will not even use chopped strand mat to attach furniture.

There have been some issues on the Fusion build that I have reported on concerning poor panel fit. I have a theory on why this has occurred but because I cannot substantiate this theory I will not air it publicly. Builders of other Fusions have reported less problems in this regard. The fairness is not perfect on the sheer panels but still very good. The fairness of areas that count: wetted areas and hull sides is excellent. Gelcoat quality seems good but comes unpolished as you would expect.

In the case of any kit boat, the unfortunate reality is that builders, both backyarders and dodgy professionals are able to substitute cheaper materials, use less materials or cut corners in any way they like. This ruins the reputation of the whole brand when someone says "I saw a realy rough Fusion that had the bows stuck on with chopped strand or chewing gum etc."

The reputation of kit boats of any brand is easily and often irreversably tainted by accusations of poor quality. As a passionate Bob Oram advocate you (44C) would be well aware of that brand's own "quality issues" as well as the Duflex materials used, as widely communicated by another Hervey Bay builder: http://buildacat.com/bblog.html or read "The Coastal Passage" most editions.

paulrack
2nd June 2011, 01:46 PM
It is not great to add extra weight to that design as the hulls are not designed to take it. People need to be aware of looking at the quality of the boats coming out of moulds as they do deteriorate over time, especially if not built properly in the first place or not properly treated. ANother point for people to add to their due diligence list.

44C
2nd June 2011, 01:59 PM
As far as I'm aware this kit is being assembled by the builder Fusion provide with the kit. Although I never asked them, so maybe not. The bow "nose cones" are most definitely taped on at this stage with chop strand glass. There are rebates there for further glass layup, but where the rebates have been cut and ground for fitting there is also chop strand glass visible in the kit panels.

It's actually quite common for at least a little chop strand to be used in moulded hulls, to prevent "print through".

44C
2nd June 2011, 02:09 PM
Re TCP's constant whinging about his materials - you're right that an owner/builder doing the wrong thing can hurt a good reputation - especially when that owner builder prints his own "newspaper"

I was actually there when he started building that boat. He ignored my advice, and the advice of builders who had build several Duflex boats, to remove the peelply from the area around the "Z" scarfs before joining them. The result was peelply in some of the Z scarfs, making them unreliable. Fortunatley the joins affected are only short, and when the kit was assembled they would almost entirely be covered by glass tapes.

Even so, ATL offered him enough glass, resin and cash to have a professional rectify any problems. That wasn't acceptable to this character - he said he wanted a replacement kit. In fact he wanted no such thing, what he wanted was an excuse to whinge. Which he continues to do.

Actually your post reminded me of another thread I saw. The guy can't even read simple plans, yet blames it all on the designer. In public. And refuses the designer any right to reply. In fact refuses to even print his letter to the editior on the subject.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/whod-designer-26636.html

tuskie
3rd June 2011, 01:27 AM
It is not great to add extra weight to that design as the hulls are not designed to take it. People need to be aware of looking at the quality of the boats coming out of moulds as they do deteriorate over time, especially if not built properly in the first place or not properly treated. ANother point for people to add to their due diligence list.

The point is that Fusions should be built according to the designer's (Lidgard) plans. These are supplied to builders in complete form along with Fusion's own booklet and website to guide the assembly process. It is very prescriptive about how the epoxy joints and overtaping with cloth tapes are to be done.

If they are built according to plan and specification they are able to carry quite a considerable cruising payload eg. 800 litres of water and 400 litres of diesel in sub floor tanks. This design feature ensures a low midships centre of gravity as well as reserve emergency floatation, especially if poly tanks are installed. Now a fully loaded Fusion built with a live aboard fitout and non-folding props will obviously be slower than an empty race fitout version of the same boat. Many other designs however, would be absolute dogs if you attempted to carry the Fusion's designed payload.

At the end of the day, the use of chopped strand tapes to hold on the nose cones, if done correctly, probably doesn't really matter. It should be strong enough (though not to specification) and any additional weight would be negligable. A Fusion could easily carry a couple of hundred extra grams. Likewise, if the designer specified a layer of chopped strand mat as part of the infused layup to prevent "print-through", I'm sure the weight was calculated as part of the design displacement. I don't see the problem. Makes one wonder why these "observations" were even posted in the first place?

As far as moulds and quality go, the Thai factory of Cobra/CMI is absolutely state of the art as far as equipment and technology goes. Where quality issues may occur is in the skill level and/or supervision of staff that operate the equipment. Last year's civil unrest in Thailand may have contributed to such issues.

tuskie
3rd June 2011, 01:35 AM
Re TCP's constant whinging about his materials - you're right that an owner/builder doing the wrong thing can hurt a good reputation - especially when that owner builder prints his own "newspaper"


44C, what about a "Bob Oram owner forum" where these issues and any other "observations" could be aired instead of the Fusion forum?

44C
3rd June 2011, 11:43 PM
You're right. I don't know why you keep bringing up Oram boats in this thread, unless it's your way of having a go at me personally, given that I own one.

tuskie
5th June 2011, 11:01 AM
Tuskie,

You're in Australia and you want an inexpensive catamaran that isn't a nightmare to build?

I have two words for you: Bob Oram

His 44C model is about $200K full sailing ready with a tasteful fit out. Of course, you have to build it, but you are taping together large strips of Duflex with biaxial tape. Not too bad.

It wan't I, Sir.

Now answer my question.

44C
6th June 2011, 12:16 AM
LOL! It was you who brought Oram boats up this time - I was talking about a Fusion I have seen.

Answer your own question. Ask the admin for an Oram forum, since you are such an expert and can't seem to stop talking about them.

dmmbruce
6th June 2011, 12:33 AM
Please STOP SQUABBLING.

We have had enough of that!

Catcruiser27
7th June 2011, 06:42 PM
I think the steering position of the Fusion sucks. Both the "regular stick your head through the roof and steer with your feet version" as well as the double "you canīt see anything at all on the other side" version.
Also the seriously angled windows donīt work. It looks good, but they act like an oven in sunny climates. Hence the french Med agent having put a sun screen on the windows, similar to the large side windows on a lagoon (thousands of little holes in a white screen).

The kit works, thatīs for sure. But building the whole boat as an amature....thatīs a different kettle of fish.

44C
7th June 2011, 11:53 PM
Getting back to the point I was making before the unneccesary and off topic attack on Oram boats was launched, the finish on the Fusion I have recently seen was not as good as I would have expected from a moulded boat. The hull sides and rear beam are actually quite uneven.

I'm sure earlier boats I've seen were much better, I was always pretty impressed with them.

This new one isn't as good - if I'd ended up with that finish on my boat I think I'd be just a little dissapointed with myself. Not that it's really BAD, it's just not really good.