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FSMike
2nd February 2013, 03:45 PM
The Explorer Charts website reports that a Lagoon 44 was wrecked trying to enter Elizabeth harbor via the Fowl Cay cut. Apparently the vessels Navionics electronic charts indicated an entrance there.

I have exited the harbor that way several times because the light is more favorable than the eastern entrance and the wave conditions are frequently better. BUT - the light would be more in your face trying to enter that cut.

This is reportedly the second vessel to be lost trying to enter here in the past 1-2 years.

For more information try explorercharts.com.

searenitysail
2nd February 2013, 09:02 PM
Supposedly it is a total loss.

http://chatter.explorercharts.com/?p=10641

Marshall

FSMike
2nd February 2013, 10:25 PM
Apparently they were trying to come in between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay. I don't think you can get anything bigger than a kayak through there.
The exit I referred to in my previous post is in between Fowl Cay and Whelk Cay.
Please don't confuse the two.

FSMike
3rd February 2013, 01:04 AM
One additional piece of info:
Explorer Charts says they do not furnish any chart data to Navionics.

HappyEnding
5th February 2013, 01:04 AM
Thats a shame, We've learned you cannot rely on any electronic charts. We bumped bottom (gently) in an area that was showing 19' on the navionics and had shoaled in over the years. I havent pulled out my paper charts but does anyone know what they show for the area?

HappyEnding
5th February 2013, 03:06 AM
I just looked at my navionics hd it shows that spot as 4 ft. I dont think id chance it.

rickp
5th February 2013, 09:26 AM
Navionics have put all their charts online in a webapp (http://www.navionics.com/en/webapp), which is quite nice.

I see there is a line on that chart there, but no clue as to what that means (ie. no transit markings).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8684464/Fowl%20Cay.png

HappyEnding
5th February 2013, 12:07 PM
My program shows more a few depths and its shallow between the two. and and Im guessing that bost draws 4ft- whats really scary is mine shows its 14-19 ft deep between Welk cay and Welk harbor aside from the rocks but 10-14 ft between all the rocks. Your pic shows its not navigatble at all between the harbor andwelk cay. Anyone have loical knowledge? Makes really paranoid:confused:

Sully
5th February 2013, 12:57 PM
Aside from base datum used to create the chart, you also have to know how to use electronic charts. Being aware of scale is the single most important thing to know.

The above picture of the chart shows nothing. It's the wrong scale.

The only thing that can be determined by the above chart is "stay the f away from all the cays."

People often zoom into a coastal chart and then use it as a harbor chart. It is operator error, not a problem with electronic charts in those cases. You can make the same mistake with paper charts, using a coastal chart to enter a harbor.

And if they followed that pink line? Wow!

It looks like a border.. demarking a country or marine zone.

dmmbruce
5th February 2013, 01:15 PM
Aside from base datum used to create the chart, you also have to know how to use electronic charts. Being aware of scale is the single most important thing to know.

The above picture of the chart shows nothing. It's the wrong scale.

The only thing that can be determined by the above chart is "stay the f away from all the cays."

People often zoom into a coastal chart and then use it as a harbor chart. It is operator error, not a problem with electronic charts in those cases. You can make the same mistake with paper charts, using a coastal chart to enter a harbor.

And if they followed that pink line? Wow!

It looks like a border.. demarking a country or marine zone.

Thank-you Sully!

What a good, and sensible point.

I often zoom in on the coastal charts to see more detail of harbours or other difficult places. I do because I can and it is easy. It had not occurred to me that this is silly.

Perhaps there needs to be an indication saying 'Do not zoom more than x%' or something. How else do you know when you are pushing it too far?

Hmmm. Food for thought.

Mike

ColdFusion
5th February 2013, 01:54 PM
CM93 shows large areas of rock between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay and no direct passage through.

Sully
5th February 2013, 02:31 PM
Thank-you Sully!

What a good, and sensible point.

I often zoom in on the coastal charts to see more detail of harbours or other difficult places. I do because I can and it is easy. It had not occurred to me that this is silly.

Perhaps there needs to be an indication saying 'Do not zoom more than x%' or something. How else do you know when you are pushing it too far?

Hmmm. Food for thought.

Mike

An indicator that you have "over zoomed" would be a good addition to electronic displays. Nice idea.


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8684464/Fowl%20Cay.png

One way you can tell you are pushing too far is this....

Just look at the chart above. If you are looking to go between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay, what do you see?

NOTHING. There is nothing shown between those island except a single 8 foot sounding and Co, which represents a "Coral Reef", nearly closing the entire passage off on the southwestern side.

If you are trying to transit a little area like they did and you see a single number 8, tons of rocks or coral heads (the *'s) and a contour marked "Co", you are in for destroying your boat.

It is fully insane to look at a chart like above and determine, based on *one sounding of 8* that it is safe.

You must see several soundings - no less than 8 or 10 of them in that area you are transiting, as well as several on the same contour that show you a clear path through. If your chart does not show many sounding where you are transiting, the scale is wrong and you need to either get a different paper chart out, or load a different chart into your plotter.

There is nothing about the above chart that shows any of this.

Going through that area, based on the above chart, would be very irresponsible, as the scale is completely wrong for that.

The above chart says nothing and shows almost no clear path, except to go the long way around and watch the *'s (rocks or coral heads).

The only course I see that is remotely safe would be to go through Welk harbor, but I wouldn't do that with this scale either, without looking at a harbor chart. Based on the above chart, I would stay outside, find a better chart, or watch what everyone else is doing and try to determine if a monohull with a keel went through and follow them in.

FWIW, in over 20 years of sailing and boat ownership, I have never hit the bottom or had any navigation error, including all of my charters and living aboard since 2004/2005 full time and constantly traveling. The one and only time I touched was in the ICW where they were dredging and there was a mound of mud in the center of the channel.

dmmbruce
5th February 2013, 03:46 PM
Thanks.

Mike

mikereed100
5th February 2013, 05:46 PM
OpenCPN pastes a big "OVER ZOOM" on the chart if you do so. I get very nervous in shallow water and try to avoid it. Did the surveyors find every reef? A chart is just a best guess.

ColdFusion
11th February 2013, 03:52 PM
In full gory detail - Not for the faint hearted: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5902990-Brand-new-Lagoon-450-grounded-on-a-reef-and-bottom-torn-out

Sand crab
11th February 2013, 04:31 PM
Actually it was a brand new Lagoon 450 and it is now for sale.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=2550585&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=certifiedsales&&ywo=certifiedsales&

HappyEnding
11th February 2013, 04:54 PM
Motors reportedly drained and ran??? Looks like the motors fell out the bottom of the boat .:eek: That boat was completly under, what part of the boat do they really think is worth 150k??? maybe 25+/-

On a serious note, would a cat that had solid glass below waterline and maybe lighter smaller, going slower have broken up like this?

it seems these big huge production cats break up pretty easy. That or they must have been going pretty fast to get her way up on the reef after ripping both keels off.

Sand crab
11th February 2013, 04:59 PM
It was reported that most of the damage was done pulling it off the reef. If those balloons were used initially then perhaps it wouldn't have been so bad. Or some other method than brute force.

amarinesurveyor
12th February 2013, 02:32 PM
In full gory detail - Not for the faint hearted: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5902990-Brand-new-Lagoon-450-grounded-on-a-reef-and-bottom-torn-out

I think these pictures show a boat in the BVI not the Exumas and the listing for sale is also in the BVI. It's strange that these apparently two different accidents both involved a Lagoon 450.
Brian

Sand crab
12th February 2013, 09:43 PM
I looked at those pics again and think the "Exumas" boat is a 440. I always assumed it was the other 450 in the BVI. I wasn't putting together the different locations. I suffer from CRS.

ColdFusion
13th February 2013, 05:40 PM
So two same/similar model Lagoons, both suffering pretty similar catastrophic damage judging by the pics. Bit of a coincidence to say the least. Is there something we should know?!

FSMike
13th February 2013, 05:53 PM
So two same/similar model Lagoons, both suffering pretty similar catastrophic damage judging by the pics. Bit of a coincidence to say the least. Is there something we should know?!

Perhaps it's that Lagoon does not furnish navigation lessons with the sale of a boat?

Sand crab
13th February 2013, 06:04 PM
A poster on Cf says he knows the owner and the Bahamas boat. He says it is also a L450 and the guy picked it up new in France did a little med sailing and then did the ARC only to end up on the rocks. A couple of months old. Damn.

ColdFusion
13th February 2013, 07:08 PM
It's sad for both owners that they have lost their boats. Sadly, from what I've read (which admittedly might not be the full story) both incidents appear to have been avoidable. Lessons for us all maybe...

Sand crab
13th February 2013, 07:25 PM
In the photos for both wrecks you can clearly see the dark outline of the reef. So, go slow, have a spotter and pay attention.

svquintana
13th February 2013, 09:35 PM
I hate to judge before knowing all the facts, which we'll never know, I'm sure.


Cheers.
Paul.

LifePart2
13th February 2013, 11:04 PM
There is a silver lining in this.

The bottom is totally ripped off BOTH hulls. The boat is totally flooded. If it were a mono it would have been at the bottom of the sea in 2 minutes. Yet there it is, still floating.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559518_423203454407993_8050053_n.jpg

Yet more comforting confirmation that cats are basically unsinkable by virtue of their foam construction and lack of keel weight.

And the crazy thing is, with the helm being located on the top, you could probably still sail this thing! yeah man! Get the genny up and let's go!

Noel

Sully
14th February 2013, 03:58 AM
I guess this wasn't the one in the ad that "shows well above the waterline?"

Is that thing floating, or just resting on the bottom?

And trying not to sound like too much of a jerk, but this boat, if floating, could not be sailed. Where would the righting moment come from if the hulls are submerged?

The minute you hoisted the sails, she would turn turtle.