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LifePart2
8th May 2013, 08:32 AM
Is it ok for a Leopard 42 to stand on her keels?

Reason I ask is we are about to haul out in Monastir, and that is how they store the cats. But, a couple of years ago I actually emailed Robertson & Caine to ask them just that question, and they replied that it was not adviseable, that one should use the specified support places as shown in the manual. The reason that I wrote was because I know the keels are semi-sacrificial, so I wasn't sure if they were actually built to be load bearing.

So, do any of you stand your L 42 on her keels? Any problems with so doing?

Thanks

Noel

Ma Bete
9th May 2013, 05:05 PM
No offense meant but why after receiving a negative answer from the manufacturer who took the time to respond with clear instructions, look for someone to give you an answer that is different. If I owned the yard I would'nt haul it without explicit instructions from you as to where to block the boat to relieve them of responsibility for damage, if any. I would also predict that your insurance company would refuse payment if there were to be damage from placement of your boat on it's keels. Your boat should be supported as the manufacturer describes and the yard should insist on doing that way!

svquintana
9th May 2013, 05:54 PM
I really have to "+1" that post. You have the answer from the factory, who should know better than anyone whether or not they built the keels strong enough to support the boat.

Sorry, I hate to make negative posts, but it seems like you're looking for trouble believing a layman who contradicts a builder on the builder's own product.

Even if an owner stores his boat on the hard, on the keels, and doesn't "seem" to be causing any damage.

Good luck, just the same.

Paul.

dmmbruce
9th May 2013, 09:36 PM
Perhaps your question should be -'How do I reinforce the keels, or the root area around them, so that the boat can stand on its keels without deformation to the underside of the hull' (as shown on a previous thread somewhere).

Even that question would beg the answer, - Ask Leopard directly.

Mike

Gringo
9th May 2013, 11:04 PM
This is an example of why I try to stay away from these forums. The man wrote a great post, asking a specific question of the experiences of other owners of the same kind of boat that he has.

The first three totally negative answers were NOT from people with the same boat, nor did any of them address the specific question. I guess I'm the fourth one to post here with no help at all for the guy, but this is so typical. What I'm pointing out here is that NONE of the replies so far are qualified to answer, but that doesn't seem to stop us, now does it. Since it seems no one else wants to stick their neck out, I will.

As for the manufacturer, of COURSE if they tell you that you can do something and you do it and damage the boat, there are legal ramifications. OF COURSE they will not recommend it. they can't. They have no control over how it would be stored. They are covering their ass. As manufacturers do. I suspect Noel knows this, and that's why he was asking for the experiences of OTHER LEOPARD 42 OWNERS.

I guess I'm the closest so far to respond, and that's only because I chartered a Leopard 42 for a week. Any of you other guys ever even been on one of them?

The sacrificial keels that I've seen down here up close ( Dancing Dolphin, a Victory 35) were built a lot like bumpers that could easily support the weight of the boat on an even surface.

Go ask Ford to put it in writing that it's okay for you to drive their car all day at 90 mph. We all know that it is, but you ain't going to get them to tell you that, now are you?

Here's what some other owners of sacrificial keels do:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3585/253735781.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/253735781.jpg/)

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8804/dancingd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/dancingd.jpg/)

Talbot
10th May 2013, 07:48 AM
I have a privilege 37 so there are obvious differences. However my boat has been out of the water since December, and following advice from my surveyor, he recomended that it was fine for a between tides stop, but long term the hulls need to be supported.

LifePart2
10th May 2013, 08:43 AM
Previously we have, indeed, had the boat supported fore and aft, not on the keels, because that is what they did in those yards. This yard seems to do it differently.

I find it very hard to believe that a boat builder would not make the keels strong enough to support the boat - after all, what happens if one goes aground and the tide goes out? One then has to go and get the boat fixed?

And does that mean one can't deliberately ground the boat to do a quick bottom job or prop fix or something?

But Talbots' answer does makes sense - getting stranded on an ebb tide is probably fine, but a long-term standing on the keels is maybe not so good. I can see logic in that.

I will see what the yard here can do.

Noel

svquintana
10th May 2013, 12:02 PM
I chartered a leer jet once, but that doesn't qualify me to tell you how to maintain it.

Saw some being maintained too, but that doesn't mean much.

How do you know how they were built (like bumpers)? I can build a keel with 1mm of glass, and it will look exactly like a keel with 100mm of glass from your perspective.

Factory advice trumps your charter.

And for the record. I agree, ALL KEELS SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE THE GROUND. AND ALL KEELS SHOULD BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THE BOAT FOR STORAGE. In my opinion, of course.

But after reading of Bumfuzzle, I see how some factories cut corners. I would therefore defer to the factory's opinion regards keel strength. They know which corners they cut during the build.



Paul.

svquintana
10th May 2013, 12:04 PM
Nice photos Gringo, are either of those cat's keels touching the ground? It looks like Dancing dolphin is actually missing the Stb keel.

*****
Now just to be clear, my last post was meant just as it sounds. But when you read this post, it is not to be taken negatively. They are genuinely interesting photos.

Paul.

Karen
10th May 2013, 02:05 PM
I find it very hard to believe that a boat builder would not make the keels strong enough to support the boat - after all, what happens if one goes aground and the tide goes out? One then has to go and get the boat fixed?

I think that is a very valid and worrying question.


And does that mean one can't deliberately ground the boat to do a quick bottom job or prop fix or something?
That will depend on the construction of the boat - I don't think you can generalise. For example, in the case of Oceans Dream, an Admiral 40 catamaran (well documented on this forum) - the damage was evident immediately the keels began to take the load as it was lowered on to the hard.


But Talbots' answer does makes sense - getting stranded on an ebb tide is probably fine, but a long-term standing on the keels is maybe not so good. I can see logic in that. The trouble is you're taking a risk because you can't know until you do it. As in the case of Oceans Dream, it might be a risk with a lot of consequence. Or it might be fine ... again, you won't know which until you do it, I suspect.

It does make life a lot easier if you know you can leave the boat for a prolonged period of time on her keels, I must say. We left Butterfly for 6 months on the hard, like that, with auxillary support, of course for stabilisation and she was fine.

Do let us know how you get on, Noel.

Karen

Dave
10th May 2013, 07:39 PM
This is a Leopard 38. Don't know about the 42.

Dave l38 #38

LifePart2
10th May 2013, 08:50 PM
When I contacted Robertson and Caine some time ago, it was actually very difficult to get an answer from them on my question, and even then, they didn't seem too definite about it. Which is why I kept wondering about the real answer.

I did just get an email response from another Leopard 42 owner, which I quote:

"We have seen a number of Leopard Cats stored with blocks under the keels. We stored our boat out of the water in Curacao for about 2 months in the same manner with no perceptible damage. It is important that the aft support under the keel not be placed directly under the trailing edge as it is delicate and will distort. This happened on the catamaran Makai. Another leopard 42 is on the hard at Abels in Guatemala and has been stored in this fashion for many months. If hauling out under the bridge deck, it is advisable to go between the strakes as they are delicate. This is noted in the Leopard manual. "

As it turns out, I had forgotten that the keels are not flat, making it more complicated to stand on keels anyway. We are now hauled out and blocked conventionally.

I have a photo of us hauled out and blocked. I also have a couple of pictures of a Lagoon 380 and a broadblue 43 both standing on their keels, but can't figure out how to upload pictures and put them in the post :(

So there we go.