Lagoon stopping development of hybrids?

[Nordic]

There seems to be some confusion as to whether Lagoon will contnue developing the hybrid drives, and using them on more models in the future.

Does anyone one know what the actual situation is?

Alan

[IreAneY]

In one respect, I hope they do not stop development, but following the reports from many people on the 420 (which seemed be almost disastrous) they probably should, and concentrate on producing some cats with a bit of performance.
On the green issue the 420 was using a lot more diesel to power the generator to drive the boat than a normal twin diesel set up and then the performance both power and sail was from what I have read very poor as the boat is far too heavy, therefore making the green issue worse.
But it would be nice if a company could come up with a reliable, economical, power saving system to save on using fossil fuels and our running costs.
Altough IMPO I think there is a lot of BS about the old green thing and the world is going through a naural cycle - but that's another thread.;)

[Nordic]

The story is here: http://www.electricmarinepropulsion.org/Pages/NewsFrom_L500_Launch.html

Seems that they have had to go back to lead batteries.

Even at this size of boat, it is still not a viable solution in my view, way too heavy, and no real efficiency gains, well at least non that are documented.

Higher initial price and new batteries every 5 years, and still 2 diesels to maintain, and all the risks of sensitive electronics in the marine environment.

Alan

[Maxingout]

Diesels require fuel and air to make them go. Very simple and basic. Zero electricity and zero electronics.

Out in the Saudi desert, we found deep wells that had hand crank diesels for pumping water to the surface. They had a 50 gallon drum of diesel, a fuel hose in the drum, and a one lung diesel.

Flip the compression release, start spinning the flywheel by hand, turn off the compression release, and the diesel is off and running.

The diesel on a yacht works exactly the same way, just more cylinders and more stuff bolted on to tap into the diesel's power.

It's going to be hard to create a hybrid arrangement that beats the simplicity and dependability of diesel engines on a long range cruising yacht.

It takes a couple of weeks to sail across the Atlantic, and the jump from the Galapagos to French Polynesia requires 2 to 3 weeks. Imagine how much strife you could experience if a hybrid system fails on passage. What happens if your Hybrid system goes down in Fatu Hiva, or inside one of the atolls in the Tuamotus, or at Suvarov in the Cooks. Who's going to fix your hybrid system?

I think that being green is great. I'm all for it. But when you are risking your life on the high seas, high tech can be a very fickle friend. Simple and dependable will get you where you want to go and back almost every time.

[CatCruiser]

I was just at the Annapolis Boat show and spoke with several people. From what I was told, they plan on continuing to offer the Hybrid and will likely offer it in more versions including the 440 and 500 but only as a custom offering. I do have a 420 Hybrid. It was really a pain at first however once they upgraded to the Generation 2 system, I have been very happy. The generator does burn through some fuel however I havent filled up in over 6 months and use the boat pretty regularly. Overall, I am happy with it!

[Talbot]

I think that being green is great. I'm all for it. But when you are risking your life on the high seas, high tech can be a very fickle friend. Simple and dependable will get you where you want to go and back almost every time.

Totally agree

If I bought a cheap hybrid (optimist), I would rip out all this heavy weight of the batteries etc and revert to a nice simple system that can be bodged to keep running. I am not even a real fan of all the additional electronics added to the beast to improve the fuel efficiency - at the expence of simplicity and reliability when up to the armpits in salt water.

[gideon]

The story is here: http://www.electricmarinepropulsion.org/Pages/NewsFrom_L500_Launch.html

Seems that they have had to go back to lead batteries.

Even at this size of boat, it is still not a viable solution in my view, way too heavy, and no real efficiency gains, well at least non that are documented.

Higher initial price and new batteries every 5 years, and still 2 diesels to maintain, and all the risks of sensitive electronics in the marine environment.

Alan

The reason for them to go back to lead acid batteries was that the Nilar batteries took a very ,long time to charge to 100 % , it was easy to get to 80 % charge but the advantage of less weight was lost because of that. I still feel that Lithium Ion at this moment is the only ( costly ) solution if one wants to keep the weight down.
keeping the weigth down helps again in making the system, smaller and make use of the electric motors more limited since the boat will sail better etc.
I am sure that Lagoon will go on with the Hybrid versions and will keep on improving them , it still is the future as it is with cars , the advantage with sailing boats is that we are able to recharge while sailing making it even less dependable on fosil fuels. Innovating is not easy and many mountains and rivers need to be crossed prior to having a good system out there.

Greetings

Gideon

[gideon]

I have just received information on the testing of the Lagoon 500 and all went well on a trip to La Rochelle , they have reached 8.2 knots under power with a consumption of 180 amps at 144 volts or a consumption of 13 Kw per side .
"Otherwise regeneration when sailing was fantastic, we observed that just above 5knots of speed we regen about 0.5KW on each motor, and with a speed above 9knots we regen up to 3KW this power is equivalent to the needs of the air conditionning system" To me it sounds like a major step forward in hybrid marine propulsion.

Greetings
Gideon

[Nordic]

What is the advantage of hybrid power if we set up the same redundancy requirements that we have with 2 diesels?

Hybrid needs 2 generators (redundancy requirement)
Heavy batteries that need to be replaced every 5 years (Not very green IMO)
Heavy cables
2 electric motors
You can not use normal feathering props.
Requires advanced electronics for control purposes, these boxes generate heat, so can not be isolated from the salt laden air in a boat.
Heavy chargers required as well as step down voltage regulators.

On top of all this, no one has been able to document any improvement on the efficiency of the system, if comparec to a well setup traditional system with good solar/wind and engine mounted generators.


The only advantage of a hybrid is the ability to better center the larger weights in the boat.

Being able to regenerate power when sailing will cost boat speed.

Maybe if the boat sailed 10% faster for the whole trip, the total consumption would be 10% less, so 10% more efficient??:)

If you have the generators running for substantial periods to power aircon, then the case for hybrid looks slightly better, but this is not the case for most boats less than 60 feet.

Alan

[gideon]

Off course you and I have different idea,s my sails are my main source of power and for redundancy one generator will do just fine. Another source for redundancy is solar, wind and the possibility to recharge with the electric motors. The autostream 3 blade feathering props work just fine in order to regenerate and when you want to sail fast , althought probably not possible with a lagoon 500 just feather them.
The fact that you can cruise for long periods without having to start a engine because of the recharge possibility,s of the electric motors is also a big plus.
In the Lagoon 2 generators are installed each with 22 Kw of max output power when these are running at 55 % or 13 Kw each the consumption should be around 26 x 220 grams of diesel is 5.720 kilo or roughly 7 liters per hour doing 8.2 knots
I would estimate the normal consumption of a lagoon at that speed to be more like 12 liters per hour but I have no figures on that so maybe you or someone else can help me out there with the correct answer.
I thought that Danish people where forerunners as far as going green was concerned.
I do not know of a nation with a higher percentage of wind power that Danmark.
How come you are not in favor of trying out new idea,s that possible could make our world greener ?
Another advantage in going electric is less noise smoke and sooth and better insulation is possible

Greetings

Gideon

[Nordic]

Gideon,

I'm all for a "greener" world, in fact a large part of my work is exactly in this area.

Let's agree on one key thing, that the energy needed to propel a boat at a given speed using a propeller is the same, regardless of if it is an electric motor turning the propeller or an internal combustion engine.

Let us also agree that 2 diesel engines of similar design and size running at the same speed and load factor will have the same efficiency.

One diesel drives a generator that powers a an electronic device to regulate the voltage to charge the batteries. The batteries drive another electronic device to run the electric motor that drives the propeller.

All these stages between the engine driveshaft and the propeller have efficiency factors, energy is lost in the form of heat at all the electric steps.

The total drive train efficiency is not going to be higher than the other diesel turning the prop through a gearbox.

The case for diesel electric has primarily been the fact that you can run the diesel at it's "sweet spot" for best efficiency. You can do the same for the traditional set-up if you engineer it correctly.

There will always be conditions where one set-up is more effecient than the other.

As I stated earlier, if you want redundant diesels, the costs, weight and complexity of diesel electric work against it if you do a life-cycle analysis.

Regenerative charging is free energy, but if you have to carry a couple of tons of extra kit around with you to be able to store this energy, to be able to sail for a couple of hours, then it is not viable for me anyway.

In the future when better batteries (and safer), lighter, cheaper become widely available then it might become more viable.

I have based the above on a long distance cruising boat. If we look at the typical coastal sailing done by the majority of boats in the world, where they can plug in to the power grid on a regular basis, or where you do not require redundancy, then the case will probably be slightly better for diesel electric.

It's all about how much power you need to store...

The real "green" solution is to have a boat that does not need the engines for other than in/out of port or in an emergency. This means a light cat with lots of solar and wind. Ideally with retractable propulsion..
Maybe a small 2kVA Honda generator for emergencies.

Alan

[gideon]

Hallo Alan

Off course I agree that the energy needed to propel a boat at a given speed using a propeller is the same, regardless of if it is an electric motor turning the propeller or an internal combustion engine. However a slower turning optimized propeller is more efficient then a high RPM prop , A Diesel motor runs any where between 800 RPM ( stationary )
to 3600 Rpm ( full speed ) and most gear ratios are around 2 : 1 or 400 rpm to 1800 RPM
Torque for a diesel at its idling speed is minimal while torque for an electric motor is almost maximum. There is no such thing as an idling electric motor so neutral does not consume energy. An electric motor has an RPM range from 0 to 1200 in our case and the prop is optimized for 400 to 1200 rpm making the prop more efficient than her diesel counterpart. as you have mentioned the Generator has a sweet spot and in case of a Diesel generator running an electric motor it is normally always running in this max efficiency setting , any extra energy not consumed by the electric motor(s) will be stored in the battery pack , in our case Lithium Iron Phosphate , when the battery level is near or at 90 % the generator will stop running and the battery's will take over. we will be using our retractable propulsion system mainly on longer voyages so recharging and giving power for all on board systems will come from the lowered electric "Motogens" , we expect that this will give substantial fossil fuel savings. In case of a trip I made from Cape Town to the Carribean with a diesel powered sailing cat we used 450 liters of diesel and mainly to regenerate the batteries and to make hot water for the shower. I expect that with the new system this will not or hardly ever be necessary ( with exception for the Doldrums or other parts of the world without wind)
We will know if this works well early next year.
Once we have launched Green Motion I will post the results on our web site.

Greetings

Gideon

p.s. I have yet to see the first diesel that can generate more diesel fuel !!!!

[zachscat]

The meantime between failure for an electric motor is typically around 50,000 hours, that translates back to around 1.5 million miles for the average car. It has one moving part and it's 95% efficient vs 40% efficient for a diesel. No chemical reaction to worry about, no worries about the inevitable carbon build up, fire damage, smelly fuel, contamination issues with fuel, etc. The problem is not the electric engine, as for every internal combustion engine there are 1000 electric motors such as computer fans. The problem is storing energy for the engine, and that's a big one. The chevy volt will have a 400 lb 6 ft long battery that probably costs around $7,000. Or you could have a gallon of gas.
Assuming though that someone somewhere gets cheap nanocarbon tube fuel cells or something else than this debate will be instantly over. Every car and sailboat will use electric motors and battery storage.

[Octopus]

As an owner of a Lagoon 420 Hybrid for the last eighteen months, I feel qualified to contribute to this debate.

Efficiency
The 17.5kVA Onan generator on a Lagoon 420 is powered by a 29HP Kubota diesel, yet the energy it generates is sufficient to push the 420 through the water at speeds that are very close to the speeds achieved by the twin 40HP Yanmar conventional propulsion version. At maximum output, the 17.5kVA Onan generator consumes 6.6 l/hr or 1.7 g/hr. This equates roughly to one litre a nautical mile, but we usually get rather better fuel economy than this. This strikes me as pretty good fuel economy for pushing a 13.5 tonnes (lightweight) cat with 4.5 tonnes of supplies and equipment through the water.

Reliability
We have travelled 12,000 miles in one year, during which the generator has been operating for 1,200 hours, probably half of which have been motoring. Apart from regular raw water impeller failures, we experienced one mechanical failure, which was a failure in an oil pressure sensor on the Kubota engine. The generator is used every day (which tends to enhance reliability) and the diesel engine operates at a small number of preset levels of rpm (which is bound to be less stressful than the spectrum of speeds the engine is asked to operate at in conventional propulsion) . The electric motors are bullet-proof industrial units that one can expect to perform reliably throughout the lifetime of the boat. The other major electrical components are the batteries, chargers and the variators, which are, again, well proven industrial units. The only item that is not a mainstream industrial component is the power management circuitry. This comprises of two bespoke solid-state circuit boards. Solid-state devices are, of course, renowned for reliability. The only real weaknesses in the system are the electrical connections, which in a marine environment could, in theory, be problematic. Some early versions of the 420 have been plagued by problems with the control software, but this was owing to the boat being launched before development was successfully completed. The control software will, doubtless, get better and better.

The conventional propulsion model has three diesel engines. One small generator and two propulsion diesels. This has three times as many moving parts as the hybrid system. Three times as many fuel lines, drive belts, pumps, exhaust systems, cooling systems, starter motors, oil filters air filters, clutches, gearboxes, engine mountings etc - all sitting there waiting to cause problems.

The propulsion diesels are used irregularly at varying levels of throttle, with frequent stop-start strains on the drive chain when manoeuvring the boat under power. This is bound to put more stress on the components than experienced in the hybrid.

I fully expect the hybrid version of the 420 to be three times as reliable as the conventionally powered version.

Maintenance
Regular maintenance of the hybrid is child's-play. The generator is situated in the cockpit, which means you don't have to struggle in the poorly-lit, poorly ventilated bowels of the boat in cramped conditions to change service items. In the hybrid, you simply lift up the cover and all the service parts are offering themselves to you for easy checking and replacement. All done in thirty minutes. It is true that the twelve propulsion batteries need topping up, in our case three times a year. Total maintenance of the system during one year of continuous use amounted to approximately five hours, plus one major service carried out by an Onan technician that took four hours, including fitting two new oil sensors and an adding an oil pressure gauge. I would like to see a conventional propulsion system that required less maintenance and cost less to maintain.

Redundancy
The conventionally powered 420 has the benefit of greater redundancy, but both the hybrid and the non-hybrid enjoy the benefit of sails as their main insurance against a failure in their powered propulsion system. In any case, the hybrid does have the benefit of the power in its battery bank to provide some redundancy in the case of generator failure. This will almost certainly be sufficient to get you out of trouble.

Green Power
In my experience green power generation under sail is of very limited benefit. Unless you regularly sail in conditions where you are happy to sacrifice the extra speed required to generate power, the amount of power you generate will be negligible. That's not the same as saying the amount of power generated is negligible. The hybrid can generate serious amounts of power, but it is just that the times when you choose to do so may be far fewer than you expect, particularly if you are an over-laden cruiser. Yes, you can virtually eliminate the need to use fossil fuels, but to do so your sailing will be heavily constrained.

Silent Motoring on Batteries Alone
It's good fun to show-off by leaving a berth in silence, running on battery power alone, but personally I prefer to keep the batteries well charged for emergencies and use the generator, when motoring. Silent running is also useful in fog, when listening for ships and other boats. I also believe the batteries will last longer if not deeply discharged on a regular basis.

Quiet Motoring
One of the greatest benefits of the hybrid is the quietness of the generator, particularly as the noise is outside the internal accommodation. The generator is far quieter than conventional diesel and you are also saved from having the vibration, heat, smell and mess of two diesel engines in the internal accommodation.

Manoeuvrability
The instant torque, superb grip on the water of the big props and the continuously variable level of power that you can exert makes the 420 hybrid a delight to manoeuvre.

Speed
The 420 is probably one of the slower boats in its class, both under sail and under power. The designers clearly went for accommodation space over speed. This approach is reflected in the conservative sail plan and is, in my opinion, a good compromise. There are plenty of faster 42ft cats, but none with larger internal accommodation or better layout. The 420 is heavy, primarily to carry the class-leading accommodation. The weight of the twelve propulsion batteries accounts for some extra weight, but not much of it. The hulls are designed to carry weight, but, even so, the designers had to barrel out the stern to carry the weight of the batteries at the stern. This leads to an underwater profile that is not particularly efficient. The power delivered by the hybrid propulsion system is modest, but adequate.

Abundant Electrical Power
In my view, the greatest benefit of a hybrid is the abundance of electrical power available. The powerful generator and huge battery bank mean that you can have all modern conveniences without fear of running short on power. It means you can have standard AC appliances and don't have to pay a premium for high-efficiency 12VDC appliances. You can have a full size automatic washing machine, electric oven, electric kettle, AC microwave, an AC vacuum cleaner that really sucks rather than pretends to and AC power tools - instead of their puny cordless substitutes. You can, like us, have a powerful AC watermaker that fills your tank in half an hour, rather than a DC one that takes a day to make the same quantity. All these modern conveniences are hardly green and are frowned upon by the hair-shirt sailors, but they increased our sailing pleasure immensely and were very economical.

The Lagoon 420 Hybrid is not a perfect boat, but we do not believe we could have found a better boat for our purposes and the hybrid system performed perfectly. I think that the hybrid concept is well suited to large catamarans. I await reports on the hybrid 500 with interest.



Chris

[Etienne Botes]

In my view, the industry should rather look into research and development to make current marine diesels greener and more efficient. I am aware they are built for reliability, minimal electronics and for simplicity for skippers to do their own repairs, but similar to piston aviation engines they seem to lag developments and technology found in the car industry.

Now here is the weird part of my post: I just "like" the idea of a diesel engine. I am also a car enthusiast, and no matter how amazing hybrids and electrics get, I just can not get "excited" about non-internal combustion engines. Yes, I believe in the whole green movement, and I like the fact that combustion engines are getting more and more efficient. But guess what? There is still an explosion and a piston and all the stuff that the "boy" in me gets excited about. I like the idea of fixing and servicing a diesel. I like the smell of diesel.
Consumers are not always rational, sometimes we just want something because we like it.

Best,
Etienne Botes

[Nordic]

I like the fact that I can still do anything I need to do on my diesels using ordinary tools.

Good old fashioned diesels will run given fuel and air, no fancy electronics package, special valve setups, CAN-bus modems, PC software etc.

When you are far from your well-trained technicians you can still get the engine running.....

It really annoys me that you can't get a car where this is possible today. I know that on some makes (VW) if you run the battery flat, it needs a software reset for the remote to work again, just 200€.

As in nearly all areas today, we see that as products become commodities, the suppliers try and make their money from services, and they try to protect this valuable source of income by requiring expensive special tools to do the job, and charging exorbitant prices for spares and consumables.

For marine diesels, let's keep them simple, reliable and easy to repair.

Alan

[IreAneY]

I like the fact that I can still do anything I need to do on my diesels using ordinary tools.

Good old fashioned diesels will run given fuel and air, no fancy electronics package, special valve setups, CAN-bus modems, PC software etc.

When you are far from your well-trained technicians you can still get the engine running.....

It really annoys me that you can't get a car where this is possible today. I know that on some makes (VW) if you run the battery flat, it needs a software reset for the remote to work again, just 200€.

As in nearly all areas today, we see that as products become commodities, the suppliers try and make their money from services, and they try to protect this valuable source of income by requiring expensive special tools to do the job, and charging exorbitant prices for spares and consumables.

For marine diesels, let's keep them simple, reliable and easy to repair.

Alan

Agree totally, that is why I am still running a 9 year old (still in beautiful condition) 3litre Turbo Diesel Toyota 4x4, service it once a year, keeps going and going, my co-director thinks I should buy a proper car like his BMW M3 (and get loads of grief - no thank you) so as to impress our clients, but mine still looks newer and costs about the 1/10 to run and does not break down.:)

I say keep the great big tap's going and simple, forget complications, look what happened to the Lagoon Hybrids:eek::eek:

[Etienne Botes]

It gets worse gentlemen. The reason for this chase for hybrid technology.

This is not a conspiracy theory, but it is time everybody gets educated and get balanced information about The Great Global Warming Swindle. (http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film. aspx) It is a documentary showing that Global Warming has become a massive money-spinning industry, and the basic premise is that humans are not responsible for global warming to the extend that the media is making it out to be.
Sure, we want clean air and efficient engines, but global warming? Maybe not. See for yourself.

It is about 75 minutes, so you need thick band-width.

Best!

[Octopus]

I like the fact that I can still do anything I need to do on my diesels using ordinary tools.

Good old fashioned diesels will run given fuel and air, no fancy electronics package, special valve setups, CAN-bus modems, PC software etc.

When you are far from your well-trained technicians you can still get the engine running.....

It really annoys me that you can't get a car where this is possible today. I know that on some makes (VW) if you run the battery flat, it needs a software reset for the remote to work again, just 200€.

As in nearly all areas today, we see that as products become commodities, the suppliers try and make their money from services, and they try to protect this valuable source of income by requiring expensive special tools to do the job, and charging exorbitant prices for spares and consumables.

For marine diesels, let's keep them simple, reliable and easy to repair.

Alan

Alan

I agree with some of what you say, but in my experience no marine diesels are simple, reliable and easy to repair, whatever their pedigree. I've always found them cursed brutes that never work when I want them to.

I agree it's annoying that nothing is user maintainable anymore, but you have to acknowledge the upside to this equation. Cars are far more economical, efficient, powerful and reliable than they used to be. I remember with fondness the times of my youth when I knew how all the components fitted together and could fix anything that went wrong with my car. I tend to forget the hours and hours I spent in the bitter cold getting grit in my eye, ingrained dirt in my hands and bloodied knuckles wrestling to fix some cursed thing on my car. I forget how I used to embark on long car journeys wondering what God-forsaken place I would break down in. Yes, I could fix anything that broke, but invariably I would break down on a Sunday afternoon when spares could not be had for love or money. On balance, I am happy to sacrifice user-maintainability for reliability, efficiency and performance.

I disagree that there is a conspiracy among manufacturers to protect their source of income by installing components that cannot be user maintained and requiring specialist tools. Like most companies they are simply responding to market pressures. People demand reliability, economy and performance and testing has proven that these complex components deliver those virtues.

No doubt along with your 'simple, reliable and easy to repair' twin propulsion diesels engines you have a not-so-simple and not-so-easy-to-repair modern generator and attached to that you have an amazingly complicated electrical system together with some amazing technical wizardry and various modern conveniences. I suspect that very little of that is user maintainable and much of it will be critical to the well-being of boat and crew. Why make your propulsion system the exception?

Chris

[Octopus]

It gets worse gentlemen. The reason for this chase for hybrid technology.

This is not a conspiracy theory, but it is time everybody gets educated and get balanced information about The Great Global Warming Swindle. (http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film. aspx) It is a documentary showing that Global Warming has become a massive money-spinning industry, and the basic premise is that humans are not responsible for global warming to the extend that the media is making it out to be.
Sure, we want clean air and efficient engines, but global warming? Maybe not. See for yourself.

It is about 75 minutes, so you need thick band-width.

Best!
Etienne

I also have reservations about the concept of global warming, but I think hybrid propulsion technology can be justified on its own merits, not just reduced emissions. For me this means economy, reliability, convenience, practicality, noise, controllability etc., etc..

Chris

[IreAneY]

Etienne
I know that this is going to cause a big debate and maybe a new thread should be started but, I am 100% with you on this, there is as far as I am concerned no such thing as global warming and if there is, it is just a natural cycle the world goes through and not caused by man, - sitting here waiting for the backlash:(:(

I am also fully in agreement that we should cut pollution of our lovely planet to as little as possible and not destroy forrests etc.

As you rightly say it has been made into a money spinning issue, we have 2 different coloured wheelie bins and 3 large plastic containers so that we separate as much as possible to enable the the local councils to recycle, but there is now a glut of paper and cardboard that nobody wants to recycle and the local councils don't want it either now as they can't make any money out of it anymore and this is the small scale end of it.:mad:

[Etienne Botes]

Quite right.
Just to set the record straight - global warming is happening, but it is not caused by CO2 emissions from cars and industry. Not even in the least. The conspiracy surrounds the cause of the current global warming phenomenon we are experiencing. The documentary explains it very, very well.

However, greenies must not for a moment confuse the issue here: we all want cleaner air, clean rivers, more efficient houses, cars, engines, powerplants, light-bulbs and the like. We all want to go green because of these issues, not an over-hyped hysterical global warming issue with no basis of facts.

Chris makes some very good points in his two posts above. Can't really argue with that. I guess it comes down to subjective choices again.

Etienne Botes

[lhsmith]

This TV program appears to me (retired hydrologist) to be the reaction of the press to its own exaggerations of scientific results. I saw this same press phenomenon occur over El Nino a few years ago. 3 points about the program: 1) the correlation between warming and solar activity is not nearly as good as the program portrays; 2) criticism by some scientists of the IPCC is to be expected because IPCC has to go beyond what science can clearly conclude; 3) categorical dismissal of climate models because they can be tweaked to get any answer is disingenuous at best because the scientists who run the models and interpret results know how to use the models properly. Sorry for the digression, but this program really bothered my sense of objectivity.
About the Lagoon Hybrid -- I think the result is understandable because the system tries to do too much and is thus too complex. As others have suggested, a simpler system that does not try to recharge itself might be more successful and be competitive with twin diesels in design, installation, and maintenance.

[Etienne Botes]

I guess this is always the problem where expert knowledge is used in public discourse. There is very little objective basis eventually for the public (and policymakers) to make up their minds about any issue. I always tend to favour the side with no interest (especially financial) at stake. On this specific issue, the reduction of man-made greenhouse gasses is a good idea nonetheless, even if it is just for the beneficial side-effects.

[mobydick]

This is not a conspiracy theory, but it is time everybody gets educated and get balanced information about The Great Global Warming Swindle. (http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film. aspx) It is a documentary showing that Global Warming has become a massive money-spinning industry, and the basic premise is that humans are not responsible for global warming to the extend that the media is making it out to be.

And let's have the reply, to be fair: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled

TGWS is a money spinning exercise for the documentary makers (and C4....)

MD

[PeacefulWarrior]

There is a product that closes the blowby tube and removes all emissions, increases the fuel efficiency as well. Its an aftermarket product and has proven itself on both boats and vehicles.

It makes the Diesel system a closed loop. It then filters the blowby gas and filters it back into the system.

Its called the Dynovalve.

Hope that helps.
:)

In my view, the industry should rather look into research and development to make current marine diesels greener and more efficient. I am aware they are built for reliability, minimal electronics and for simplicity for skippers to do their own repairs, but similar to piston aviation engines they seem to lag developments and technology found in the car industry.

Now here is the weird part of my post: I just "like" the idea of a diesel engine. I am also a car enthusiast, and no matter how amazing hybrids and electrics get, I just can not get "excited" about non-internal combustion engines. Yes, I believe in the whole green movement, and I like the fact that combustion engines are getting more and more efficient. But guess what? There is still an explosion and a piston and all the stuff that the "boy" in me gets excited about. I like the idea of fixing and servicing a diesel. I like the smell of diesel.
Consumers are not always rational, sometimes we just want something because we like it.

Best,
Etienne Botes