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Nordic
15th October 2008, 09:08 PM
Is there anyone who can explain the advantages of these boats, especially as cruising boats? I think that they will gain in popularity if people understood the many advantages they can offer.

Alan

harryproa
16th October 2008, 10:40 AM
G'day,

Conventional proas (Pacific and Atlantic) have many drawbacks, which is why they have never been popular. Harryproas combine the best of both, and solve some of the problems common to both.

The advantages of a harry type are:
1) Low cost and light weight. A harry weighs about half as much as a cat of similar space. Consequently, it is cheaper to build.
2) Simpler: Unstayed, rotating rig, two large rudders, no daggerboards, no holes in the hulls, simpler to shunt than to tack or gybe, no changing sides, no winching of sheets.
3) Faster: Lighter, with hull shapes that are not compromised for tacking ability, less hydro drag, less aero drag.
4) Safer: No need to go on the foredeck, no flogging sails, very quick return to man overboard, much less to break, automatic depowering in a gust.

I appreciate that these are big calls to make, but proof of the performance ones are in a video of a cruising harry effortlessly sailing at windspeed in 10-15 knot bereezes at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA This boat weighs 3.5 tonnes/tons ready to cruise. It has a bunch of extras over and above the standard harryproa which weighs 2.25 tonnes/tons. It is the maiden sail, the crew were not trying and the sails needed recutting. Compare the relaxed crew with any pictures you can find of a similar size cruising cat performing as well.

For further information on harryproas, see www.harryproa.com

regards,
Rob

catty
16th October 2008, 12:45 PM
Try this web site for info on proas that have actually survived ocean crossings.
http://www.wingo.com/proa/links.html


The sub-links below provide the more insightful reading.

Reply to Denney's critiques of Brown et al by Steven Callahan
Moderating the Proa List by Joseph Oster

Ozmultis
16th October 2008, 02:52 PM
Can we please not turn this into a bash Rob Denney site. Indeed Catty can we show more maturity and less desire to pick fights on this board, god knows CF lives on the antagonism driven by a few, how about we live on the positive, critical but positive approach we can bring to a discussion. Nordic asked a question, Rob replied, not unreasonably pointing people to his product. There is simply no need for a fight, - by all means offer up a positive link to further proa discussions, but offering heresay evidence of 3rd parties disagreements with Rob really helps no one. I cant comment on proas - I have never sailed one. What I can do is point out to Nordic that there are a range of views and a range of proa styles and designers.

Let him draw his own conclusions.

The proa community strike me as an organism that is in the early stages of development, a teenager in the world of a sailing sub species, there are some pretty strong and robust views on all sides.

terhohalme
16th October 2008, 03:33 PM
There is no fundamentalism in these articles. Just some some lemmas, calculations and conclusions. Hope you could read these with open mind. I made them to explain myself how they work.

harryproa
16th October 2008, 05:40 PM
G'day,
Excellent suggestion Andrew. Bet you any money you like it will be ignored. As it is a personal attack, I have responded briefly below.

By the way, rare Bird, (the boat in the video) has been sold to a Brisbane owner who plans to use it a lot. I am coming over for a sail in December, would love to show you over it if you are around.

Catty's links are a selective part of a 9 year long argument I have had with Joe Oster and various supporters of his about the merits of pacific proas vs harry proas. Part of my side of the argument was to use quotes from an article Steve Callaghan wrote in Cruising World magazine. The link referred to by Catty is one of many posts Steve wrote to the Yahoo proafile chat group.

During these posts Steve denied he wrote the quotes, then conceded that he may have done so and finally agreed he had, but accused me of taking them out of context. I agreed to recant all my arguments if he would publish his revised views in Cruising World. He wouldn't.

Anyone who wants to read the article, let me know (copyright laws don't let me post it publicly) and I will send you a copy. It will put you off cruising a Pacific proa, same as it did everyone else who read it.

The full argument can be read on the yahoo proa list. If you ignore everything about how wonderful he thinks he is and what a prick he thinks I am, it is quite a short read. Leave them in, it is many times longer than the original article. It ended when Steve offered $2,000 as a wager between a harry and a Pacific proa. I accepted. Steve, Joe and sundry other supporters have not been heard from since.

The other link Catty refers to is a rant by Joe who trawled through 9 years of posts to the proa forum where he holds the distinction of being the only person to be banned. Not sure what this has to do with proas sailing ability, but Joe includes me as part of the alleged conspiracy against him.

I have not read all the references (in blue), but have just spent a pleasant couple of hours looking through his link to "first claims about HARRY in 1999". Absolutely fascinating (to me, probably not to many others) bit of history, I will be posting most of it on my web page when I get the time. Most of what i said back then still applies.

If you read either link, feel free to ask for my side of any of the points made.

There are a couple of videos on the Pacific proa page as well. These show quite clearly why "jibs at both ends" rigs are a bad idea and how deep v, highly rockered hulls pitch excessively. There is also a nice one of a Pac proa at speed, although no indication of the load, ballast carried or the true wind speed.


regards,

Rob

Ozmultis
17th October 2008, 01:59 AM
I'll take you up on the offer of a look at Rare Bird. Andf hopefully this thread can provide an opportunity for me and many others to better understand proas, of all types and decriptions.

I'll PM you with a mobile number

catty
21st October 2008, 10:45 AM
Can we please not turn this into a bash Rob Denney site. Indeed Catty can we show more maturity and less desire to pick fights on this board, god knows CF lives on the antagonism driven by a few, how about we live on the positive, critical but positive approach we can bring to a discussion. Nordic asked a question, Rob replied, not unreasonably pointing people to his product. There is simply no need for a fight, - by all means offer up a positive link to further proa discussions, but offering heresay evidence of 3rd parties disagreements with Rob really helps no one. I cant comment on proas - I have never sailed one. What I can do is point out to Nordic that there are a range of views and a range of proa styles and designers.

Let him draw his own conclusions.

The proa community strike me as an organism that is in the early stages of development, a teenager in the world of a sailing sub species, there are some pretty strong and robust views on all sides.


No fight from me OZ just placing a few links on the board so interested parties can make informed decisions and not have to listen to Robs thoughts being passed off as fact. Go ahead ,if you are interested , follow the links and you will learn.

Ozmultis
21st October 2008, 10:49 AM
No Catty - follow the links and I will get a point of view, which I did, a point of view I neither accept nor reject, thus far its no better or worse for me than Rob's point of view.

Nordic
22nd October 2008, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the links guys, and Terhohalmes very well presented material, all very informative and understandable.

I agree with Andrew, let's not get into personal stuff, Robs thinking and his boats seem a pretty neat design to me., and I especially like the unstayed masts.

What i'm not so keen on are the rudder set-ups used, they look a bit on the light side to me, but I'm a marine engineer originally, so I tend to overdo mechanical stuff if left entirely to my own:D:D

Looking forward to see some Harryproas crossing oceans.

Alan

harryproa
24th October 2008, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the links guys, and Terhohalmes very well presented material, all very informative and understandable.

I agree with Andrew, let's not get into personal stuff, Robs thinking and his boats seem a pretty neat design to me., and I especially like the unstayed masts.

What i'm not so keen on are the rudder set-ups used, they look a bit on the light side to me, but I'm a marine engineer originally, so I tend to overdo mechanical stuff if left entirely to my own:D:D

Looking forward to see some Harryproas crossing oceans.

Alan

G'day,

Allan,
If I was willing to accept standard rudders, which don't kick up in a collision, can't be partially raised in shallow water and require a swim to clear plastic bags and ropes from them, the proa rudder problem (rudders which will steer in both directions) was solved 6 years ago.
The current ones all work well. They will withstand 30 degrees of rudder at 25 knots, with a safety factor of 3, so I am pretty confident about them and their mountings on a 3 tonne boat.

Oz and catty,
Instead of trying to divert the discussion to me and my percieved shortcomings, what about discussing the boats? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the boat in the video and your comments on the claims I made about the boats in my 16th October post.

regards,
Rob

catty
24th October 2008, 11:25 PM
G'day,

Allan,
If I was willing to accept standard rudders, which don't kick up in a collision, can't be partially raised in shallow water and require a swim to clear plastic bags and ropes from them, the proa rudder problem (rudders which will steer in both directions) was solved 6 years ago.
The current ones all work well. They will withstand 30 degrees of rudder at 25 knots, with a safety factor of 3, so I am pretty confident about them and their mountings on a 3 tonne boat.

Oz and catty,
Instead of trying to divert the discussion to me and my perceived shortcomings, what about discussing the boats? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the boat in the video and your comments on the claims I made about the boats in my 16th October post.

regards,
Rob

The problem was solved six years ago ? MMMMM, so why is everybody rebuilding their rudder systems at their own considerable expense? (from memory in the last six years the rudders have gone from the lee hull sides, to tracks, to rotating kick-up, to beam mounts, and just about everything in between.) Instead of "discussing", in the hope of drumming up new business, rob, its time for you to go sailing and substantiate a few of your claims. Proa talk is cheap.

PS. Have you actually entered a race yet? Surely after 10 years of telling us you will, to prove how blindingly fast your creation is, its time to post the results not the excuses.

harryproa
25th October 2008, 09:33 AM
G'day,

Who is rebuilding their rudders at their own expense? There are 5 cruising harrys 4 of which have their original rudders, the other is changing his steering system, including the rudders for an improved design, paid for by me. He sailed all last summer with the originals. There are 4 beach harrys sailing, all except one with their original rudders. The other is my test bed, on which I have used all the variations you refer to to see what works and what doesn't. Only the systems that work get used on client's boats.

I am not drumming up new business, I am answering your posts. I appreciate the opportunities you give me to put things in perspective, and to correct your mistakes, but it gets boring having to repeat the same points on so many forums because you ignore everything I say and refuse to offer up any specific examples. Still, the more people who read it, the more visits there are to the web page to see what we are on about, so it is worth the effort for me. Not sure what you get out of it, though.

There are some race results on www.harryproa.com Not as many as I want for my personal gratification, but enough to determine that the boats are fast and the principles behind them are sound. My time now is much better spent figuring out better ways to build and sail the boats rather than racing them. As 99% of the interest in harryproas is for cruisers, and most of these are home builds, race results are not as interesting as the video of the crusing boat doing effortless wind speed under working sail.

Do you agree that for an overloaded 15m/50' cruising boat that cost less than $AUS400,000/$US250,000 ready to cruise, it is doing pretty well?

regards,

Rob

Talbot
2nd November 2008, 07:36 PM
I looked at the design and appreciate the concept. My worry would be the apparent lack of reserve buoyancy up fwd, and in the you tube it showed the ability to cut through a wave rather than ride over it. Much more comfortable up to a point. However, in the north atlantic bottoming out on a big wave, or even more of a concern in the North sea, with very steep waves, I would worry about the ability to cope

terhohalme
2nd November 2008, 08:50 PM
How is the reserve buoyancy up fwd in this boat different than in harryproa?

harryproa
3rd November 2008, 04:23 AM
I looked at the design and appreciate the concept. My worry would be the apparent lack of reserve buoyancy up fwd, and in the you tube it showed the ability to cut through a wave rather than ride over it. Much more comfortable up to a point. However, in the north atlantic bottoming out on a big wave, or even more of a concern in the North sea, with very steep waves, I would worry about the ability to cope

G'day,
The freeboard on the lee hull is much higher than on trimaran floats with the same weight, centre of effort and sail area. The tris would be much shorter, so the lever arm keeping the bow up on the harry is much longer. The prismatic on the harry is also much higher, resulting in more buoyancy forward as well.

While none of them have crossed the Atlantic, they have surfed some very gnarly bars on the East Coast of Aus where wind against current waves in shallow water are very steep. Control is effortless, speed is high and there was no tendency whatsoever to nose dive.

Compare the boat in the video with the video at http://www.lebreton-yachts.com/ and see how the narrow bow dives when a gust hits. There is no indication of this on the harry.

Regards,

Rob

majika
3rd November 2008, 10:25 AM
harryproa
i have allways liked new idears and concepts and admire anyone with the ba**s to bring them to the market.

this is a quote from your first post:
1) Low cost and light weight. A harry weighs about half as much as a cat of similar space. Consequently, it is cheaper to build.

you say that this is a crusing boat so as a crusing cat owner i am always intrested in the other options but there is so little picture or vid footage of the interiors of these boats and most are all in the 50' range i cant see how you are getting as much accomadation as a 50' cat say a prout or privilege
as you say us crusers are not realy intrested in speed at the loss of living space and comfort or ease of saling.

or are you realy saying that a 50' harry has the same space as a 30' cat but weighs half as much.
if this is so thats were it falls down for me!

harryproa
5th November 2008, 04:39 AM
G'day

Thanks for the compliment. Comparing different approaches to space is a tad fraught, but the boat in the video (RAre Bird)weighs 3 tonnes, has 2 queen doubles and three singles, table for 6 and sheltered cockpit. Not as much as the Prout and the Privilege, but I suspect they weigh a bit more than 6 tonnes. Rare Bird was built as a one off for $aus400,000/$US250,000 which I suspect is a little less than the cats.

A better comparison point for the 50' cats would be the 60' charter proa which has 4 queen size bunks (2 of them island type) each in a seperate cabin with ensuite shower and toilet. Weighs about (not built yet) 7 tonnes with 8 people, their gear, electric motors and full tanks.

Speed may not be of interest to you, but performance is a big safety feature for sailing boats. The ability to reach harbour before darkness or bad weather is a big asset, as is the ability to sail upwind when you have crab pot lines wrapped around your props. Ease of sailing and comfort are an important part of the harry concept. As you can see in the video, high speed can be a very laid back experience.

regards,

Rob

majika
5th November 2008, 09:06 AM
ok lets say as a crusing sailor you have convinced me on the weight and speed and the build cost, but only if i was getting like for like.can you expand on some of these topics.

so i have a 37' privilege so please compare against this as its value is around $250,000us
1) engins and range when there is no wind!
2) 15knt in 15knt is impresive but how do you do in verry light winds 5knts
what do you do for light wind sails.
3)manovering in marinas i would like to see it being docked.
4)what size would i need to have cmparable space to my boat.
5) i would like to see some picturs of the interior gally cabins etc.
6)were i sail we have short seas 2m waves 30knots wind is not uncomon do you have any vid in bad weather?

harryproa
5th November 2008, 01:04 PM
Gday,
You are comparing a brand new one off custom build with a second hand production boat, but the answers to your questions are as follows:
1) Range depends on the fuel carried. The boat in the video has 2 x 20 hp outboards, cruises at 7 knots with one of them. No idea of consumption but it wil be way higher than your diesels.
2) No light wind sails, although some could be carried if you wanted the hassle. Down to about 6 knots, the boat sails close to wind speed, below this it is very hard to say as the wind speed varies so much. However, it will not sail as fast as you will motor at these wind speeds.
3) With fore and aft rudders maneuverability is impressive, the boat can move sideways off a jetty if required. Add in both outboards and it will be a lot easier to dock than your boat.
4) No idea. Which parameters of your boat are you referring to? You would have a lot more space than in your boat with the charter version. We received a quote to build, join and paint the hulls, decks, beams, floors and bulkheads of this boat of $US95,000. This was cheaper than the same companies (Ballotta in Peru) 39' cat to the same stage
5) So would I. The 3 large (2 x 50', one x 40') boats that have been built are all on the opposite side of the country, or the world to me. Not much I can do about it, I am afraid. However, an advantage of the harry layout is that the space in and on the windward hull is comparatively unstressed, so you can have whatever layout you require.
6) No bad weather video and not much experience of it. The boats have handled some pretty gnarly seas and some very gnarly bars (in and out) with no problem. I regularly sail my 25' test bed in 30 knots and test it to the limits. I am confident that the large ones will handle storms with aplomb.

The boats we have designed and built so far have been performance oriented. The owners have not wanted diesels or the other trimmings you get on a production boat. Low cost (for a new boat), excellent performance and the easiest sailing possible were high on their list of requirements. If sailing at windspeed is not as important to you as range under power, then I would alter the design.

Regards,

Rob

catty
6th November 2008, 01:01 PM
How about some pictures to illustrate your point. I understand the styling is all your own work. The earlier "visionary "styling was created by Mark Stevens .

Rob, when you say you regularly sail in 30 knots why not include the usual venue, the Swan River, as this bit of info certainly paints a clearer picture.

harryproa
7th November 2008, 03:37 AM
How about some pictures to illustrate your point. I understand the styling is all your own work. The earlier "visionary "styling was created by Mark Stevens .

Rob, when you say you regularly sail in 30 knots why not include the usual venue, the Swan River, as this bit of info certainly paints a clearer picture.


G'day,
Thanks, for posting the picture. There are some others, with different styling on www.harryproa.com I leave the style required entirely up to the owner. Often takes a hundred or so emails and many redraws to get a look they are happy with, but it is usually an enjoyable process for both parties. The charter boat is a bit of an exception to this as cost, performance and ease of use were considered much more important than looks so it was very much form follows function.

And if you think the styling on the charter boat is odd, wait until you see the new 15m/50'ter. Will give you something new to talk about. And at a cost and weight that you can spend the build time (all 3 months of it) grilling me about as you definitely will not believe they are possible.

Sorry about the sailing location, I usually include it, as you know. I did occasionally sail harrigami (10.5m trailer sailer) and harry (12m weekender) on the Indian Ocean in 30 knots, if that makes it any clearer. Regularly is probably a bit of a misnomer now as well, as I did not get out much last summer, and not at all so far this one.

regards,

Rob

multihullsailor6
26th July 2009, 10:15 AM
Here is a short video of "Rare Bird" sailing in the Brisbane to Gladstone race:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOsgqrO59A&feature=related.

harryproa
28th August 2009, 02:18 AM
A Visionarry, similar to the one in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA attended the Multihull gathering in Denmark recently as part of a longer cruise. The owners comments follow.


We managed to sail up wind like a Louisiane cat (double centerboards) quite easily,
actually we outsailed it , but when the wind ceased, it outsailed us. We also
managed t o follow a TRT1200 cat same speed and course for a minute or two, but
we had some too careless steering and the boat stalled. The TRT1200 sailor was
surprised and came to talk to me afterwards. Down wind we are fast. We outsailed
cruising cats with spinnakers. Vis is not a light wind performer really.
There were 12 boats on the racing course in our class "big cruising boats". It
was only 11 miles of which 6 miles upwind in light winds next to city shore.
These were very bad conditions for us (more foil area...!!..) There were four boats behind us at the
finish line ( not to mention how many were ahead).

> > We have now experience about living aboard Visionarry with a family of
> > four and a dog three weeks, still one week to go. We visited the
> > Internationa Multihull Meeting 2009. There were 130 boats. We also
> > participated short course race. We sailed from
> > Helsinki to Copenhagen and now we are on a way back home, at the moment
> > in Visby. Living has been easy. We had some bad weather when sailing
> > from Simrishamn to Ystad around Sandhammaren. That was tight luffing
> > upwind against high wawes. The boat felt solid and the rig worked
> > well. We had some exhausting luffing in the end with full main only.
> > About living aboard; There is plenty of room. Sometimes quite tight in
> > the bridgedeck cabin when going in and out. We have a sliding table
> > which is very useful.
> > Steering has worked well now when we got the steering lines tight. Next
> > job is to build symmetric profile daggerboards to make steering lighter
> > and to be competitive against cats. On downwind and reach we are fast.

harryproa
1st September 2009, 07:55 AM
From one of the crew:

I went sailing on Ono with Arttu last Friday. Boat was fine. Unfortunately very light winds kept speeds low. Few data bits for people wanting to know about performance: First motoring in no wind in the morning at 5,5 knots with one 9,9 hp Yamaha at cruising speed, top speed 8 knots with two 9,9 yamahas. Then sailing in light winds (weather observations in the area showed 6 knots winds in the afternoon): boat speed 4,5 knots dead downwind, 5-6 knots when changed course a bit from dead downwind and 7,5-8 knots when reaching, all speeds are SOG according to GPS. Handling the boat was even easier than I had thought.

Accommodations were bigger and better in reality than what is seen in the pictures. Some details still need some work and thinking but no major issues.

Funny thing: about half of the boats we met had cameras in hand smile.gif

Arto

Mark424
21st September 2009, 11:22 PM
I'm a bit late to the party, but it appears to me that a this could be thought of as a double ended tri, rig moved to one ama, and the other ama removed? On one hand that might not be a constructive description, but it brings a couple thoughts to mind. (a) one of the things some like about tris vs cats is one slightly beamier (above the water line) living hull, rather than two narrow ones. For a cruising couple that doesn't need 4 staterooms, it could be better use of space, $, weight. (b) why is the living hull shorter than the hull with the rig? I can't tell from the drawings, but it appears to have a bit more waterline beam, so wouldn't you want it to have => LWL than the leward hull to maintain similar slenderness ratios? is it related to the asymmetric driving force? (c) perhaps I'm going off the deep end, but as a tri can swing/fold amas for transport or fitting in a slip, you could imagine something similar with this design using a dragonfly-like, cat2fold, or some other mechanism. Fold some of the hard top (or replace with canvas) and you could get it down to 14-16' beam. With a 50' living hull (windward hull? is there a name?), you could make it a bit more spacious inside and in the cockpit. Might also be able to give it a bit more symmetrical look, if that is important to some.

One of the videos shows a fair bit of spray off the leeward hull (Rare Bird 2009), would need to address that somehow, it'll only get worse in large seas.

Neat concept, love designs that challenge conventional wisdom.

harryproa
22nd September 2009, 03:35 PM
Glad you like it. The tri analogy is near enough. The windward hull is fatter for it's length and could easily be longer. I make them smaller as the space in the ends is not really usable, the torque loads on the beams are less, the weight and drag are lower and importantly, when the boat is moving slowly, the wetted surface of the short hull is less. L/B is between 11 and 12 to 1 and as the boat gets powered up, it gets higher as the hull lifts. Lee hulls are nearer 20:1. As well as the slenderness, the lack of rocker is a significant go fast feature.

I am building a folding beam 50'ter, a cat 2 fold version will be built in Chicago this winter and a sliding beam 50 footer is part built in Canberra Australia. All will be blogged on www.harryproa.com

The lee hull spray is a function of over maximising the prismatic coefficient. Fixed on future boats.

rob