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Thread: Kelsall designs & KSS system

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    near Seattle
    Posts
    1,114

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    Quote Originally Posted by ireaney View Post
    Yes, but, Terry, you are making it very difficult for yourself by iving in Norway and building in darkest Cornwall , England where they only get a bus once a week. and in some towns they have 2 heads, ever seen the film 'Deliverance'

    But I still agree with you, if you want to sail BUY when you can afford it.
    Still more advice from a guy with no experience to back it up!

    I really wanted to go sailing. I bought. I sailed 6,000 nm. It sucked. I built. The unique boat I built was 10,000 percent better than the stock boat for short handed voyaging. I would never have sailed across the Pacific in a typical sailboat.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    'Estrella del Sur' is currently on the hard in Fort Pierce, Florida for hurricane season.
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    Frankly, I find the suggestion that only those who have actually built (or more accurately, who are in the process of building, or who are about to build) their own boat can have an opinion to be ridiculous. Clearly you have made the decisions which you believe to be appropriate for yourselves; it is sad that you are unable to see that this same decision may not be appropriate for everyone, or even to defend your own decision in a rational way. I expressed concerns that I weighed up when I decided to buy a used production boat and then do my own refit; and while I too am happy with my decision (bearing in mind the likelihood of cognitive dissonance), I would be careful in recommending it for others.

    Rather than attacking me for having the audacity to suggest some difficulties for the home-builder, perhaps it would have been better to address some of my concerns. Frankly, I am surprised that the builder of a one-off can buy his equipment/materials at the same price as production builders (or how one would even know that). The concerns about rising material costs, about applying a value to one's labour, about potential difficulties/expenses associated with the bulding space and about resale value are left untouched except for a personal attack: I would suggest that this is neither productive, nor conducive to the sort of discussion that this site should stimulate. Put another way, if you are closed-minded, perhaps you should steer clear of threads that might give rise to a debate about that which you are not willing to debate.

    BigCat, I know of your passion for an unstayed bi-rig and, as you are aware, believe it has considerable merit (concerns about tacking aside). In your case, I can fully understand why you have chosen not only to build, but to design your own boat. Having said that, I am sure that you would be unable to inventory the time that you have spent educating yourself in naval architecture just to get to this point. Even you must agree that, even though in your opinion all moderately priced production cats are dangerous garbage, not everyone has the time or inclination (or is prepared to take the risks) to do what you are doing.

    Once upon a time there was a website dedicated to cruisers that devolved into an often irrational debate about monohulls versus monohulls. The proponents of the former repeatedly dismissed the latter, making bold and generally unsupported statements and using specific examples of specific boats in order to attack all multihulls. I, for one, certainly hope that his site does not devolve into one where the homebuilders make similar attacks on the production cats that are loved, or aspired to by others.

    Anyway, it seems all real 'discussion' is over on this thread and I will take my leave. All production boats are garbage; virtually anyone can home-build a large cat with ease, without help and at huge cost-savings; economies of scale to the production builder are a myth.

    Brad
    Last edited by Southern Star; 28th October 2009 at 04:28 PM. Reason: sp

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    near Seattle
    Posts
    1,114

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    It's absurd to suggest that the best advice about boat building comes from those with experience of building boats? That's funny! Also, Brad, (apparently gone now, and so to be spoken of in the third person,) misrepresents my comments, which are that stock boats are designed for vacations within sight of shore, and thus best suited for that purpose. In the US, you can get good prices from Composites One. Probably not as good as a huge company, but much better than you would get from companies that don't specialize in sales to the trade.

    Also, stock boats are indeed heavy boats usually, because the easiest way to get good appearances is to have inner liners made in separate molds, so that most surfaces have a non-structural inner part that is heavy, but which does not contribute to boat strength. Of course, if you put a zillion gallons of bog on a boat when doing a one off, that isn't light either. Vacuum bagging panels or using professionally made panels, as Oram designs, reduce the bog drastically. Plywood also uses very little bog.

    I do have one criticism of Kelsall, and that is his bizarre prejudice against a material found in most stock boats - balsa. Balsa can be a problem if it isn't fully laminated to the cores, but there is no danger of that in vacuum bagged panels. Balsa should be used only in developed surfaces, that is, surfaces that bend in only one direction, as in for boats designed for plywood construction, for example. Putting balsa in female molds with compound curves, however, is asking for voids, and hence problematic. Kelsall seems not to grasp the difference between appropriate and inappropriate uses of balsa, and the fact that inappropriate use or really bad workmanship is the parent of all balsa problems. I don't use balsa below the waterline, for example, and I use high density grp reinforced polyurethane foam in place of balsa where highly loaded fittings are attached.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  4. #24

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
    Frankly, I find the suggestion that only those who have actually built (or more accurately, who are in the process of building, or who are about to build) their own boat can have an opinion to be ridiculous. Clearly you have made the decisions which you believe to be appropriate for yourselves; it is sad that you are unable to see that this same decision may not be appropriate for everyone, or even to defend your own decision in a rational way. I expressed concerns that I weighed up when I decided to buy a used production boat and then do my own refit; and while I too am happy with my decision (bearing in mind the likelihood of cognitive dissonance), I would be careful in recommending it for others.

    Rather than attacking me for having the audacity to suggest some difficulties for the home-builder, perhaps it would have been better to address some of my concerns. Frankly, I am surprised that the builder of a one-off can buy his equipment/materials at the same price as production builders (or how one would even know that). The concerns about rising material costs, about applying a value to one's labour, about potential difficulties/expenses associated with the bulding space and about resale value are left untouched except for a personal attack: I would suggest that this is neither productive, nor conducive to the sort of discussion that this site should stimulate. Put another way, if you are closed-minded, perhaps you should steer clear of threads that might give rise to a debate about that which you are not willing to debate.

    BigCat, I know of your passion for an unstayed bi-rig and, as you are aware, believe it has considerable merit (concerns about tacking aside). In your case, I can fully understand why you have chosen not only to build, but to design your own boat. Having said that, I am sure that you would be unable to inventory the time that you have spent educating yourself in naval architecture just to get to this point. Even you must agree that, even though in your opinion all moderately priced production cats are dangerous garbage, not everyone has the time or inclination (or is prepared to take the risks) to do what you are doing.

    Once upon a time there was a website dedicated to cruisers that devolved into an often irrational debate about monohulls versus monohulls. The proponents of the former repeatedly dismissed the latter, making bold and generally unsupported statements and using specific examples of specific boats in order to attack all multihulls. I, for one, certainly hope that his site does not devolve into one where the homebuilders make similar attacks on the production cats that are loved, or aspired to by others.

    Anyway, it seems all real 'discussion' is over on this thread and I will take my leave. All production boats are garbage; virtually anyone can home-build a large cat with ease, without help and at huge cost-savings; economies of scale to the production builder are a myth.

    Brad
    You appear not to have properly read our previous posts. It's already been conceded that building a boat isn't for everyone. We've already stated that if you earn a big enough income, you'd be better off working and saving, than buying.

    In my first post in this thread I said you need access to a cheap place to build. Preferably in you own backyard, if that's possible.

    I didn't say i knew how much Lagoon pays for the chop-strand mat and particle board they use in their boats - I said I can buy at OEM prices.

    It's never been said that ALL production boats are garbage. There are some excellent production boats, but they are extremely expensive.

    Again I never said anyone can build without help - I said I built without much help. The simple fact is, the vast majority of jobs involved CAN be done by one person. Many would be done much faster by two though.

    But what you were saying is that help from friends and neighbours should be costed. OK.

    When I rolled my hulls, I asked a few people if they could lend a hand. When the time came around 30 people showed up! In reality 6 people could have done it easily, but friends and neighbours were keen to help. If I had offered to pay them they would have been insulted.

    So we had an improptue barbecue. Total cost, a carton of beer, some sausages, bread and barbecue sauce. Budget blowout!

    And nobody has really said production builders can't build cheaply. In fact they very often can and do build VERY cheaply. But they don't SELL THEIR BOATS cheaply.

    But you are right, if your only way of arguing is to resort to misrepresenting what other people have said, you might as well leave the discussion.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    How is production of these boats going if you compare it with past? If you look in some other boat building industries as luxurious yachts. The quality took sharp turn downwards. Mostly because greed and using cheap materials and subcontractors. How is the situations here?

  6. #26

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Psuite View Post
    Just 2 pennies on build/not build a boat.

    Baring going live aboard on a budget. If you want to sail buy - if you love to work with tools and materials or tinker with design build

    I'll repeat it for those not listening (I personally I wish someone shout at me)

    If you want to go SAILING BUY
    Well, I built, and have been sailing and living aboard for 8 years now. I certainly couldn't have afforded to buy a similar boat.

    And we DO sail. When the production boats are motoring, we're sailing.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Kelsall designs & KSS system

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    And we DO sail. When the production boats are motoring, we're sailing.
    I think this sums up the real difference.

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