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Thread: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    This environmental stuff is complicated! How can we weigh up the dirtiness of manufacturing the Prius batteries against the benefits of better fuel efficiency? I'm not a fan of the Prius. The mileage isn't that great anyway. 50 Mpg if you're lucky. I've had 73 mpg from my VW Golf turbo-deisel. But mileage isn't everything. My brother has a Prius. He lives in London. There, it makes a lot of sense. It's quiet. At traffic lights, it silent. The engine comes on when the car is going at some speed - all the stop/start and slow manoeuvres is done with the battery. My golf would be throwing out clouds of soot.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    No doubt the Prius uses far less fuel than many cars while it is being driven. But the manufacture of the batteries for the Prius is a very environmentally "dirty" and costly exercise. And they won't last the entire life of the car. At some stage they will need to be replaced, and disposed of.

    Also, depending on how it's driven, the economy of a Prius can at times be no better than cars normally considered to be "thirsty": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk

    Interestingly, in the recent economy challenge held in Australia, Toyota decline to enter a Prius, despite apparently being offered considerable incentives to do so.
    They addressed that (nickel mining,) in the link I posted in response to your post. Another issue here is that the forced choice given here is pretty idiotic - Why not choose between a SUV, a Prius, and a Honda Civic? Because the SUV would lose - this source isn't about helping the problem - it's just cheap sensationalism. If this is where you get your science, I suggest you try something a little more serious.

    Since weight doesn't matter to efficiency, I suggest you trade in your Oram for a FP, and then load the lockers with lead pigs!

    :
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  3. #63

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I sometimes think you just start arguments for the sake of it. Please guide me to where I have ever said weight doesn't matter to efficiency.

    However, weight is only one factor in making a car more fuel efficient.

    And fuel efficiency is only one factor in making a car less environmentally damaging.

    There's more to protecting the environment than just CO2.

    BTW the BMW M5 is heavier than the Prius, and yet in that test it DID use less fuel. Go figure.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    I sometimes think you just start arguments for the sake of it. Please guide me to where I have ever said weight doesn't matter to efficiency.

    However, weight is only one factor in making a car more fuel efficient.

    And fuel efficiency is only one factor in making a car less environmentally damaging.

    There's more to protecting the environment than just CO2.

    BTW the BMW M5 is heavier than the Prius, and yet in that test it DID use less fuel. Go figure.

    A Hummer weighs an awful lot more than a Prius, so I was hoping you might notice the inconsistency in your viewpoint regarding cars and catamarans. You are a known advocate of very light catamarans, because they are fast. They are fast because they are moving less weight for a given sail area-but you seem to be having trouble following the comparison.

    The 2009 MW M5 has 14.1 mpg combined fuel usage, according to the EPA - the Prius gets 46 mpg. The BMW has 10 cylinders! Just where do you get your facts? I get mine from the EPA at: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm . I think when your research brings you an unlikely answer, you should do more research.

    What will come next from your keyboard, bacon and chips cooked in lard, a healthy alternative to salads with turkey breast?

    It's hard to say whether a different technology is more or less negative for the environment, because there is no absolute way to weigh the values of different issues. It is much easier to compare similar technologies, which is why I have no hesitation at all to say that a Hummer is much worse than a conventional car that is considerably smaller, such as a Honda Civic, because there aren't different issues to weigh against each other. Most environmental negatives go with size and older, less efficient design.

    No, I don't start arguments for the sake of it. I'm not fond of arguments. I was a counselor (mental health and marriage counseling) for 18 years, and helping people get past pointless head butting is something I've spent a lot of hours doing.
    Last edited by BigCat; 4th November 2009 at 06:07 AM.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  5. #65

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I take it you didn't actually watch the video you are criticizing.

    In a direct comparison, driving both cars on the same circuit at the same speed at the same time the Prius used more fuel than the M5. The M5 is heavier.

    Many government tests are done in laboratories on rolling roads. They are generally useful as a guide only.

    In reality for most people the Prius will obviously be more economical on fuel than an M5. But driven in the manner shown it can be less so.

    But the real point I'm trying to get across, seemingly with no success in your case, (once again you seem to be deliberately obtuse, and constantly nit pick at arguments I have never actually made - for instance I have never once mentioned a Hummer) is that just focussing on reducing CO2 emissions, because CO2 is the current headline grabber, can lead us into using environmentally harmful or ineffective technologies, such as some hybrids.

    Or are you saying that since hybrids use different technologies, we shouldn't even attempt to compare the environmental impact of them to conventional cars?

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    I take it you didn't actually watch the video you are criticizing.

    In a direct comparison, driving both cars on the same circuit at the same speed at the same time the Prius used more fuel than the M5. The M5 is heavier.

    Many government tests are done in laboratories on rolling roads. They are generally useful as a guide only.

    In reality for most people the Prius will obviously be more economical on fuel than an M5. But driven in the manner shown it can be less so.

    But the real point I'm trying to get across, seemingly with no success in your case, (once again you seem to be deliberately obtuse, and constantly nit pick at arguments I have never actually made - for instance I have never once mentioned a Hummer) is that just focussing on reducing CO2 emissions, because CO2 is the current headline grabber, can lead us into using environmentally harmful or ineffective technologies, such as some hybrids.

    Or are you saying that since hybrids use different technologies, we shouldn't even attempt to compare the environmental impact of them to conventional cars?
    To quote myself, "It's hard to say whether a different technology is more or less negative for the environment, because there is no absolute way to weigh the values of different issues. It is much easier to compare similar technologies, which is why I have no hesitation at all to say that a Hummer is much worse than a conventional car that is considerably smaller, such as a Honda Civic, because there aren't different issues to weigh against each other." The real world isn't like driving on a race track. In the real world, the Prius uses 1/3 the fuel of your Beemer.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I really dont think what kind of auto you drive matters when the snow will be too deep for regular auto's. The Hummer may be the only transport that may get around in the artic weather we will get when this planitary warming spell is over.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    I really dont think what kind of auto you drive matters when the snow will be too deep for regular auto's. The Hummer may be the only transport that may get around in the artic weather we will get when this planitary warming spell is over.
    Why do you expect a cooling spell in the foreseeable future? Maybe you should be looking for a steel monohull, to break all of that ice that you seem to expect in the tropics.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  9. #69

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Well there is a theory that global warming will shut down the gulf stream and trigger an ice-age in the Northern hemisphere...

  10. #70

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
    To quote myself, "It's hard to say whether a different technology is more or less negative for the environment, because there is no absolute way to weigh the values of different issues. It is much easier to compare similar technologies, which is why I have no hesitation at all to say that a Hummer is much worse than a conventional car that is considerably smaller, such as a Honda Civic, because there aren't different issues to weigh against each other." The real world isn't like driving on a race track. In the real world, the Prius uses 1/3 the fuel of your Beemer.
    Christ this is hard - that is EXACTLY the point - if you focus ONLY on CO2 emissions you may overlook the other types of environmental damage done. I tried using the Prius as an example, but obviously that's too hard for you to grasp - how about nuclear power?

    It produces no CO2, so clearly if CO2 were the only environmental concern, nuclear would be a prime choice.

    But of course, nuclear comes with it's own environmental "baggage". Yet due to the focus on CO2, Australia has begun considering nuclear again.

    BTW in the real world, how much fuel a car uses depends a lot on how you drive it. Cruising at 180km/h on an Autobahn, (if it can go that fast) a Prius would very likely use more fuel than an M5.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I have been working in the nuclear energy world for over 30 years and the waste is a very small part of producing power. With all the homes that are heated and powered by nuclear, the waste is manageable in comparison to oil or coal. Wind is great but other than sail boats it does not pay for the maintance of the wind turbines YET. Solar power is getting there but there is not enough resurch and developement on it yet.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    'Solar power is getting there but there is not enough resurch and developement on it yet.' The Germans reckon they have the technology: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...urope-desertec

  13. #73

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I read the 'written details' and I'm sorry, but it is garbage. Many factual errors which make it incredible to start with, but also no understanding of science, the scientific method, or how to write a serious paper.

    MD

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    Well there is a theory that global warming will shut down the gulf stream and trigger an ice-age in the Northern hemisphere...
    Not in 'the northern hemisphere,' but rather in Northern Europe. The Gulf Stream transfers heat from the Caribbean to Northern Europe.

    Germany's autobahns are a pretty small fraction of world traffic, so I won't concern myself too much about them. Yes, there are multiple environmental issues to consider, but the title of this thread is about global warming, so I am not drifting the thread. If we discount the possibility of nuclear war, global warming is the biggest environmental hazard currently, based on the number of people / size of area affected. I am also very concerned about the hazard biofuels and bioplastics pose for the world hunger problem, which is going to be exacerbated by global warming.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  15. #75

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    And also an abuse of Forum Moderator power to put this in a sailing forum, in my view.

    MD

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
    And also an abuse of Forum Moderator power to put this in a sailing forum, in my view.

    MD
    Then why are you reading it and posting on it? Maybe it should be in the bar, but calling it abuse is coming it pretty strong! I, for one, appreciate Paul's efforts, made at his labor and expense, and not yours or mine, and frankly, you seem pretty cavalier and ungrateful! If I didn't want to participate in the thread, I wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't abuse my host because I didn't share his tastes in food or wine if I were a dinner guest.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    And also an abuse of Forum Moderator power to put this in a sailing forum, in my view.
    Well as a free forum and a subject fairly close to many boater's hearts, I thought it was OK to post in just the same way that any member can post.

    I cannot see how it is abuse who is forced to read it? Kindly explain how I have abused any small power I have? There is no censorship of comments and you, as anyone are free to criticise the forum administration. That is unlike other forums where critical comment like that is strictly forbidden.
    Safe Sailing
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  18. #78
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I also think its best in the bar and so the thread is moved.

    I would point out that I have never moved a thread without member permission, so my actions in posting in the sailing forum anyone could have done. It did not require moderator power at any level.
    Safe Sailing
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
    And also an abuse of Forum Moderator power to put this in a sailing forum, in my view.

    MD
    Supression of people's opinions would be an abuse of power IMO. This forum is the exact opposite of that.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
    I read the 'written details' and I'm sorry, but it is garbage. Many factual errors which make it incredible to start with, but also no understanding of science, the scientific method, or how to write a serious paper.

    MD

    Care to elaborate? What factual errors, for instance?

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