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Thread: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

  1. #81

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Sorry, I should have used less contentious wording, such as “I suggest this is moved to the bar”….

    But I get a bit exasperated when I see what I assume to be otherwise intelligent people taken in by such things. The statement: “As earth’s moon passes over any stretch of water it strengthens the attraction of earth’s magnetic core toward the moon, which in turn repels water away from earth’s core causing the rise of earth’s seas and consequently our tides” ALONE should surely raise suspicions on a forum like this? As well as the stuff about ocean currents (explained well by temperature, salinity, wind and Coriolis effects, NOT the exceedingly weak diamagnetic properties of water…)......

    MD

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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydick View Post
    Sorry, I should have used less contentious wording, such as “I suggest this is moved to the bar”….

    But I get a bit exasperated when I see what I assume to be otherwise intelligent people taken in by such things. The statement: “As earth’s moon passes over any stretch of water it strengthens the attraction of earth’s magnetic core toward the moon, which in turn repels water away from earth’s core causing the rise of earth’s seas and consequently our tides” ALONE should surely raise suspicions on a forum like this? As well as the stuff about ocean currents (explained well by temperature, salinity, wind and Coriolis effects, NOT the exceedingly weak diamagnetic properties of water…)......

    MD
    There is no gravity, the earth sucks? Ho, ho, ho!
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I would agree that there are things that would cause one to question.
    What impressed me is the close correlation between the speed of movement of the magnetic north pole and the climate change CO2 and temperature graphs. Also that taking the last 150 years of this theory you get an almost exact correlation with individual small amounts of years and the magnetic north pole.

    I really think you should watch the film, which in itself is just a simplification of the work and then comment on any point you disagree with ... then your contribution would have some weight.
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by pir8ped View Post
    When the climate scientists pointed out the ozone hole, and said the whole world needs to stop using CFC's and change the way we do refrigeration, the whole world jumped, we made the changes and the ozone hole is filling up again.

    When the climate scientists point to rising CO2 levels contributing to climate warming, and suggests we need to use less energy, everyone suddenly becomes an expert on climate with a theory of their own, and the Americans assume it's a one world government initiative to curtail their God-given freedom to burn as much carbon as they like in their V8 inefficiency machines.

    :
    "The Americans?" Please, a significant percentage of us aren't wingnuts.

    Maybe half of us are wingnuts or listen to them as though they weren't complete raving lunatics. The Republican base, self identified, is now down to to 20%. The wingnuts, ie. those who take Beck and 'Faux' so-called News seriously, will either kick the moderate conservatives out of the Republican Party, or start their own party. Either possibility seems equally likely at the moment.

    You really have to view the US regionally - the West Coast and the Northeast are almost European in their views, predominantly. The South and the Midwest are where wingnuts are ascendent.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  5. #85

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I really think you should watch the film...
    Well I did, (I hope nobody is getting benefit from clickthroughs) and it is just the same nonsense I am afraid. Added to the claim that crystaline formations are due to macro-magnetic effects..! A change in the rate of pole movement made it colder in the Thames that year, so therefore the global temperature was lower?! What does he claim the change in jetstream is caused by - diamagnetism of the air?

    He has no credibility, so his home produced graphs may be right or wrong, and one can't draw anyything useful from them

    But the main misconception is he thinks that it is claimed that CO2 increase caused previous warming periods. It is not. Just this one.

    MD

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I would agree that there are things that would cause one to question.
    What impressed me is the close correlation between the speed of movement of the magnetic north pole and the climate change CO2 and temperature graphs. Also that taking the last 150 years of this theory you get an almost exact correlation with individual small amounts of years and the magnetic north pole.

    I really think you should watch the film, which in itself is just a simplification of the work and then comment on any point you disagree with ... then your contribution would have some weight.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Bigcat, '"The Americans?" Please, a significant percentage of us aren't wingnuts. ' I didn't mean to offend all Americans. Some of my best friends etc... I was just playing with the caricature.

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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I agree that correlation does not imply causation but the whole cilmate change movement is already based on correlation.
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    But the main misconception is he thinks that it is claimed that CO2 increase caused previous warming periods. It is not. Just this one.
    So what caused the previous climate changes?
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  10. #90
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I agree that correlation does not imply causation but the whole cilmate change movement is already based on correlation.
    Not the case. The mechanism of greenhouse gases has been demonstrated experimentally - pure CO2 absorbs more heat out of sunlight than the earth's atmosphere.

    http://www.xlab.tv/experiment-17.php
    Last edited by BigCat; 5th November 2009 at 07:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I think our wingnut problem starts with folks in the White House or was that the previous 2 terms. I thought the movie was probably correct and those changes will affect the wind and ocean currents as they have already noticed the trade winds moving further north and our warming weather and holes in the ozon layers are bigger than all humanity put together. I really don,t think humanity and all it's poluting toys and camp fires put together could change the location of the north pole, Santa would have to keep moving his toy shop around. Ha Ha

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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    So what caused the previous climate changes?
    Any number of causes can cause increased global warming. Green house gasses can increase due to volcanic action, the sun can put out more energy, methane ice becomes a greenhouse gas when it melts, adding to a feedback cycle that takes a slight increase in the earth's temperature and accelerates it, decreased plant life can lead to a higher CO2 level, etc. Except for increased solar energy, all of these mechanisms involve increased greenhouse gasses. Human civilization could hardly do a better job of increasing greenhouse gases if it were designed for the purpose.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    But do we know what caused the previous warm periods?
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  14. #94
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Not the case. The mechanism of greenhouse gases has been demonstrated experimentally - pure CO2 absorbs more heat out of sunlight than the earth's atmosphere.
    Point accepted.
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    But do we know what caused the previous warm periods?
    Basically, you either get more energy or you keep more energy - that's how the planet gets warmer. So your choices are increased greenhouse gases or increased solar input. It's like heating a pot of water - you can turn up the gas or you can put a lid on it, to get the water hotter faster.

    Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_v...riation_theory

    What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what caused past global warming. The globe is getting warmer, and we are putting a lid on the pot. We can see that the consequences of global warming will cause starvation and flooding, tropical diseases will spread to what is now temperate climates, etc. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that if you don't want the water to boil, you don't put a lid on the pot, and arguing about whether past pots of boiling water were due primarily to lids or turned up gas aren't really significant.
    Last edited by BigCat; 5th November 2009 at 08:37 PM.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    But do we know what caused the previous warm periods?
    This is where the layman can get confused. In common usage, yes it is 'known' what caused many of the climate change events in the past. (Add to Bigcat's list variations in the earths orbit and distribution of land masses around the globe.)

    In scientific usage, though, it is not 'known' - there are theories with various levels of confidence and support about each event. It is tricky to perform experiments with e.g. continental drift, which is one of the two ways of testing a theory. The second one - using the theory to forecast events - I guess we are trying now.

    MD

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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I will repeat my question which nobody is answering

    Do we know what caused the historic increases in CO2 and temperature - global warming.We either do or we do not.
    We can guess at what might have caused them but it appears we do not know what did - agreed?

    From the answer to that I will do follow up questions.
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  18. #98

    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    I have answered.

    Maybe you were expecting a single, simple reason for every event?

    MD

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    Sorry you have not answered.
    You have given a mix of vague possible causes but not the mix that caused the previous bumps in that 40,000 year history.
    It was claimed that they were not caused by CO2 - how do we know that?

    It seems nobody can describe the reasons and hence nobody can be sure it was not CO2 given that the CO2 record clearly shows a matching temperature increase.
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  20. #100
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    Default Re: Climate Change - A Rational Explanation

    There's a description of the current understanding of the relationship between CO2 and climate temperature here.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...-temp-and-co2/

    There are references too...

    We could all pour forth our opinions and misunderstandings, or we could just read what the climate scientists are saying.

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