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Thread: Suliere - A shattering experience

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    What is the best way to mark the halyard?
    If tape - what type is best.
    Felt pen?

    My main is best reefed when one of the 5 battens just shows above the boom so in effect I have very clear reefing points to reef to but still best to mark the halyard so its easier at night.

    We have huge vibration when raising the main - its the long halyard and reefing line path with sharp angles plus the design of the roller onto the winch so we are now redesigning they system.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Paul,

    Sharpie - felt tip pen! It does require periodic remarking as the mark does fade over time.

    I draw about a 1/4" band around the halyard. For the reefing points, I have the band, plus "I", "II", "III" as appropriate.

    Are you easing the sheet when you raise the main?

    Mike

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Are you easing the sheet when you raise the main?
    No.

    Raising the main is as simple as winching up the main as we allow a controlled tension on the outgoing reefing line.

    In light winds we never bother pointing into the wind to raise the main although we have had and still have real problems with the St Francis routing of the lines. We have replaced simple plastic blocks without any bearings to blocks with plain bearings and that has helped but we are still considering radical re-designs to overcome the problems of the sharp high friction route taken by the lines. We really need to present the line to the winch at a better angle as even raising a rigger to the top of the mast makes a hell of a noise on the winch.

    I may make a short video of this problem so that everyone can see the problem and help with the solution.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Paul, sorry you are experiencing a continuation of these frustrating problems. Clearly the shoe shouldn't have fallen off; indeed, it can hardly provide protection in the case of grounding if the force of water alone is sufficient to break it loose. I have no idea what kind of adhesive was used, but even a liberal application of sikaflex should make for something that can't be removed readily - even with multiple crowbars (precisely why one should never bed hatches, etc. with it).

    I'm assuming here that your shoe is not merely a bottom plate, but also has formed sides that cover a couple of inches up from the bottom of the keel. If not, it should as this provides not only a greater surface area for the adhesive, but keeps flowing water from 'peeling off' the shoe.

    Yes, laminated glass (as has been mentioned) would have avoided the implosion/glass shards. Having said that, tempered glass of sufficient thickness should have been able to withstand a blow from a sail batten and, as aforementioned, an adhesive tint would have also stopped the flying shards.

    As to the main halyard, that is precisely why I insist on a removable gate on the mast track located at the exit slot, about a foot above the boom. This prevents the mainsail batcars/slides from accidentally coming out of the track and it can be left in place for raising and lowering the sail. Yes, it makes reefing slightly more complicated (one has to remove the gate and allow a few slides to drop in the track below the gated exit, then refasten it). However, IMO that is a small price to pay in order to ensure that you're mainsail is securely in place.

    Brad

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
    This prevents the mainsail batcars/slides from accidentally coming out of the track and it can be left in place for raising and lowering the sail.

    Brad
    Brad,

    Paul has a reefing system where the boom winds up the main from the foot up. The only way this can work is when the mainsail does not have slides but can disconnect freely from the bottom of the mast. I used to have fun with my Sigma 33 OOD (slab reefing) where the same method of attaching the sail to the mast was present as on Suliere. A rope sewn in the sail which enters the mast via a groove.

    After having fun for a couple of years I decided to fit sliders making life a lot easier. OK for slab reefing but it cannot work with boom reefing systems.

    Agree with your other points; even if tempered glass could be made strong enough (we all know what happens if you use a so called 'life hammer' against tempered glass in cars) I would still like it to stick together (as in laminated) when it does fail. Compare it to modern windshields in cars.

    O boy, Paul is having a hard time having 'fun'

    Eric

  6. #26

    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    This was the exact reason I chose to use perspex in my windows. Tempered glass has many advantages, but if it gets hit hard enough it will disintegrate, leaving you with a gaping opening. Perspex will also break of course, but you'd still have something left in the window opening, and some screws and a bit of plywood could hold it all together till it can be replaced.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Quote Originally Posted by dmmbruce View Post
    Paul said 'a braided loop' not a splice.
    Yes, I did see that the first time, but my comments were not, in fact, completely off topic.

    My point was that ANY system that allows a chafe-vulnerable component (loop or splice) to enter the masthead is trouble prone, and that is what happened. I thought that was clear, but I could have explained.

    What's the harm in a little drift anyway?
    "When I was a boy, what was so was so, what was not was not. Now I am a man, things have changed a lot. Some things nearly so, some things nearly not. Is a puzzlement."

    The King of Siam

    http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/


  8. #28
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    I have learnt a great deal from this thread and would like to thank everyone for contributing.

    Lesley did the surgery on my foot to remove a piece of glass embedded in my heel today but is still having trouble getting some tiny shards out - there is one behind her finger nail that is just managing to avoid extraction.

    Filled the water tank today and guess what the stainless steel water cap suspended on a small chain decided to go diving into the marina - I hope i can buy just the cap and chain. If the chain was longer i could keep it on deck whilst filling - currently they are too short for this.

    I have now written a complete report to Duncan of the 12 outstanding issues - so look forward to sorting out a set of solutions next week.

    My headsail was et up wrongly by the riggers in Grenada so that and a few other rigging issues will be dealt with next week. As well as riggers also we have mechanics and electricians plus a few other bods arriving to do things to the boat next week - I am determined to get it all working. In the meantime the advanced stuff like the camera, remote controls for thruster, engines and winch all work well - its the basics that are still the issue.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  9. #29

    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Wow. And I thought shattered Correl was trouble.
    "When I was a boy, what was so was so, what was not was not. Now I am a man, things have changed a lot. Some things nearly so, some things nearly not. Is a puzzlement."

    The King of Siam

    http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Ouch! More problems. I have begun to think than you should never trust a yard that isn't run by someone with offshore sailing experience.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  11. #31

    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Is it possible that the window was put in properly, and then when the rig loaded up it put a twist on the glass that left it very close to the breaking point? If so, there's little way of knowing what stress the other windows are carrying.

    I would get a second opinion on this from someone specifically knowledgeable about glass, perhaps not in the marine business, since your application is far from common (big glass windows in a big custom cat).
    "When I was a boy, what was so was so, what was not was not. Now I am a man, things have changed a lot. Some things nearly so, some things nearly not. Is a puzzlement."

    The King of Siam

    http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/


  12. #32
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Once it's broken, I'm pretty sure you can tell if it's laminated glass or not. Laminated glass has a thick layer of plastic in the middle, sandwiched between glass layers. If it's automobile safety glass, it should break into little roughly cubic shapes.

    Quote Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
    Is it possible that the window was put in properly, and then when the rig loaded up it put a twist on the glass that left it very close to the breaking point? If so, there's little way of knowing what stress the other windows are carrying.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    RE stainless steel "shoes" My boat has these-they are screwed onto the wood mini keels with flat head No. 12 every 3 inches staggered from side to side. DO screws if possible as when grounded they will have lots of pressure on them short screws should work fine in solid FG. If its real solid then drill and tap machine screws.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    Filled the water tank today and guess what the stainless steel water cap suspended on a small chain decided to go diving into the marina -.
    Christ Paul, I don't believe the bad luck you are getting, you must have upset someone in a previous life :

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    The window was a hinged window with the hinges at the top so that you could open it from the bottom. I think it was closed at the time with the two htach handles fitted into it so yes that could cause some stress.

    Lesley still cannot get some glass out of her so we have used a plaster and hop it rises to the surface.

    The glue on the show was pretty low in quantity. You can see the huge voids between the bottom strip of glue and the hull with connections between that and the a bit too rare
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Paul, FWIW the matter of the glass breaking may not be all that straight forward, nor may it be a fault in the fitting. I don't know, obviously, but I hope this helps.

    Safety glass is usually either laminated or toughened. If it is laminated then it is of a type that is thin and breaks into long narrown very sharp triangles. Both the thin sheets do this but they largely remain stuck to the plastic membrane between them and whilst this may bulge it will not usually let the glass fly about.

    Toughened glass comes in various categories but they all break into granules. You will have seen this with side windows on cars that get broken. This type of glass can also be supplied in very big sheets and seem very strong until the wrong thing happens to them and they shatter spectacularly.

    For example, I helped remove the back glass wall from a two squash courts. These are made from big sheets of thick strong glass. We removed all the others and got to the last one. Four of us carried it out and just touched a corner or an edge, less hard than we had bumped the others, but this one exploded with a loud bang. The side of my face was against the glass and I was uninjured, but I had two handfulls of granules, a shirt full, pocket full and shoes full. So did the others and there was a big pile of granules on the floor. This glass wall hard withstood sqash players crashing into it, rackets being bashed on it, hands beating on it to applaud play etc. However a slight tap at the wrong angle or in the wrong place shattered it. Apparently this can happen either if the glass was not 'stress relieved' or annealed when it was made. Or if it was stressed during fitting though this was said to be less likely. It is not possible to know in advance unless you see some strange curved lines like ripples in the glass coming from one point at the edge. This is generally not easily visible. (Pilkington blamed the fitting, the insurer blamed anyone, neither paid!)

    StFrancis could well have fitted a stressed piece of glass, or stressed it during fitting, and they would not have known. It would have seemed fine indefinitely until some chance local heating or impact triggered the shattering.

    However, if the glass sherds you are suffering from are long and narrow then it has come from glass that should have been in a laminated sheet.

    Furthermore if there was a solar tinting film applied then that should have helped to keep it together too.

    I don't know if that helps. I hope so!

    Good luck fixing things.

    At least you have got a shoe to copy on the other hull!!


    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    We have now established that the window was hinged forward - open at the time of the shattering.

    There was no lamination at all. The shards are small and very sharp you could put a dozen of them into a 5mm cube - they are like a 5mm cube split into sharp teeth.

    I do not think that St Francis were aware of what could happen - they are still responsible though as the windscreen glass should have been laminated to at least car windscreen standard.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    The plastic films that are available to add to either the exterior or interior of a window have a number of useful functions.

    The films can significantly reduce thermal transfer.
    They can cut down UVA & B.

    When applied on the interior, they can provide a lamination so that shards are kept under control.

    Some of these films will also work with perspex and polycarbonate.

    They are available as clear or in a number of different tints.

    A good film on polycarbonate has a 4 year life on the outside and 7 years when applied on the inside. However, the exterior application will significantly extend the life of the polycarbonate and prevent the crazing.
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    All good info thank you.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  20. #40

    Default Re: Suliere - A shattering experience

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    the windscreen glass should have been laminated to at least car windscreen standard.
    This is true.

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