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Thread: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

  1. #1
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    Default Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Plenty of people are converting excess capacity of their car alternators to generate Hydrogen which is then fed into the air intake. Apparently this can increase fuel combustion efficiency by 20-50% depending on the engine. Search Youtube for "HHO" for hours and hours of poor quality home made Hydrogen engine projects.

    Is anyone doing anything like this on their boat?

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    "Excess capacity" is not free. The more power you pull out of an alternator, the more fuel you have to put into the engine, so it requires some careful measurement to see if you come out ahead on this idea.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Agreed. And it won't work in every case. The fact its working so well in many car and truck motors is of interest tho. To me at least

    Perhaps it has to do with battery charge levels? Once the batteries are full the engine will only require a minimal electrical load to keep turning over as normal, but the belts will turn the alternator anyway therefore creating excess capacity. Clearly if the batteries aren't full, that's where the excess needs to go.

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Don't you fella's know the basic laws of physics?

    I know someone who is trying to build a Wankel-type rotary engine, powered by steam that is generated by a microwave which is powered by the Wankel engine. He reckons that heating water by the microwave is very efficient, and a Wankel engine is also much more efficient than a piston engine, and all this efficiency will make the engine run itself and have power to spare to drive a car.... just add water.

    The energy required to generate hydrogen with an engine will be greater than the energy produced burning the hydrogen in the engine.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    As a physicist I second the last post. This is bullshit - whatever Youtube says.

    Generating Hydrogen from electricity has an efficiency of less than 25%. Now you have to multiply that with the efficiency of the engine that turns the alternator and you arrive at a very efficient device to burn more Diesel fuel.

    Another REALLY scary thought on a boat is the ignition behavoir of hydrogen. In comparison, our fears of propane or butane gas are a child's folly: Hydrogen will explode if mixed with anything between 1 and 99% of air (plus any spark that comes in handy...).

    Not that I want to hijack the thread, but I always wonder: The industry has come up with some pretty amazing and reliable engines. They consume very little, should have pretty decent lifetime, and still everybody is searching for a "better" way to go. Now, in principle I don't mind that - progress comes from inquisitive minds. But you have to couple it with some basic physics, or it turns into religion. Hybrid boats - never mind that any decent commercial builder figured out in the meantime that it just won't work - get people excited, yet the whole basis is wrong. You can reclaim a significant portion of a car's kinetic energy when you are advancing from one stoplight to another, because you've got solid ground. There it makes sense. On water, you don't have stoplights (at least not every quarter mile) and you can reclaim next to nothing.

    My solution: Wait for the wind to turn favorable and use your engines only when you really need them. No hybrid, no hydrogen, just two nice white sheets pulled up to a mast...

    End of rant...back to physics...

    Oliver

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Well said pir8ped and Oliver.

    I just wish 'Moonbeam' would go away.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
    As a physicist I second the last post. This is bullshit - whatever Youtube says.
    While I am interested in what Physics doesn't know as much as what it does (like- what is gravity?) I'm not referring to anything sub-atomic or heretical like harmonic cracking of the water molecule to create over-unity energy. This is just simple traditional energy engineering well within the laws of thermodynamics such as conservation of energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
    Generating Hydrogen from electricity has an efficiency of less than 25%. Now you have to multiply that with the efficiency of the engine that turns the alternator and you arrive at a very efficient device to burn more Diesel fuel.
    Not exactly. The main waste in the production of HHO is some warming in the electrical apparatus and in the water itself and I'm led to believe efficiencies of 50% are not too difficult to achieve, with a theoretical maximum above 80%.

    Alternator efficiencies tend to be around 50-60% on a good day.
    Diesel engine around 45%.

    What I'm talking about is capturing and reusing some of these inefficiencies, in order to feed back into the system and raise overall performance - not creating power out of nothing, and not dedicating any fuel to the production of hydrogen.

    Remember the alternator draws power from the system whether or not the batteries are full.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
    Another REALLY scary thought on a boat is the ignition behavoir of hydrogen. In comparison, our fears of propane or butane gas are a child's folly: Hydrogen will explode if mixed with anything between 1 and 99% of air (plus any spark that comes in handy...).
    The fact the Hydrogen is burned as soon as it is made means there is no storage issue. And so long as HHO is turned off a few seconds before the engine there will not be any HHO left in the tubing either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
    My solution: Wait for the wind to turn favorable and use your engines only when you really need them.
    Always the best strategy without a doubt!

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by CauliflowerEars View Post
    Remember the alternator draws power from the system whether or not the batteries are full.
    Literally, yes. To be turned by the belt takes power from the engine just to overcome friction and turn the belt around the pulleys.

    But if the batteries are not full and getting charged from the alternator, the alternator takes a lot more power from the engine than with the batteries full. How do you think energy gets transferred?

    Count me among the disbelievers. There is no free lunch when it comes to energy conversion. There's not even a cheap lunch.

    I suggest you do the following: For those windless days, buy a towed water generator to be deployed while you're motoring with your diesel to supply an electric propulsion motor on your prop shaft. Once you get moving under your diesel engine, simply shift the transmission over to the electric motor being supplied by the water gen and shut down the diesel. This will save you a lot of diesel fuel.

    2 Hulls Dave

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Dave,

    I agree with the first part of your post

    Cauliflour, an alternator has what's called an "excitation field". In layman's terms, what that means is that if you don't draw any amps, you have to supply the energy to overcome bearing friction and some eddy current heat, but essentially the alternator is "freewheeling". Any that's the reason why your equation won't work: You produce hydrogen with 50% (let's take your number for argument's sake), out of an engine that works at 45%, run a part of that to an alternator running at 80%+, and you get about one fifth of the energy in Hydrogen that you put in in Diesel fuel. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch....

    ...and if you ever solve the mystery of gravity, call me first!

    Oliver

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    So a decent engine runs at 45% - in other words converting 45% of the energy released when the fuels is burned into useful mechanical torque...

    Why so low as 45%? Most of the waste is heat. But adding Hydrogen and Oxygen to your air intake lowers the temperatures of the resulting explosion thus creating less waste. This also has the knock on effect of requiring less pumping of coolant. The revolutions of the engine remain the same but less fuel is needed per revolution (as you've added Hydrogen), and less internal engine friction per litre of fuel used. The fuel burns more cleanly and more completely therefore less fuel is needed and less pollution created too.

    I don't think it's something that will work exceptionally well on every engine, but older engines, or engines that are not well optimised... I remain hopeful.

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    45%?? Where'd you get that?

    Probably closer to about 10 - 15%. Internal combustion engines are terribly inefficient.

    The most efficient energy conversion heat engines are baseload electric generating plants that use the Rankine Steam Cycle. About 90% of the world's baseload power plants use the Rankine Steam Cycle. The very best efficiencies of these are about 40% - regardless of the fuel >> carbon or nuclear. These are huge plants that squeeze every BTU out of the fuel that they can within the confines of temperature-entropy of the fluid medium using all the tricks they can - and still get only around 40% efficiency tops. The rest is waste heat. Some plants attempt to capture the low energy waste heat as a byproduct.

    What you're not understanding, apparently, is the energy required to isolate H2 so that it can be used as a fuel. The "cost" of isolating it is greater than its "worth" as a fuel. Period.

    2 Hulls Dave

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by CauliflowerEars View Post
    The revolutions of the engine remain the same but less fuel is needed per revolution (as you've added Hydrogen), and less internal engine friction per litre of fuel used.
    Hello?? Hydrogen is fuel! Even if the engine was happy buring H2 mixed with its diesel and O2 (it may not be) all you're doing is replacing some fuel with another fuel.

    2 Hulls Dave

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    45%?? Where'd you get that?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine
    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    Probably closer to about 10 - 15%. Internal combustion engines are terribly inefficient.
    That's basically my point. That's 85% wasted effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    What you're not understanding, apparently, is the energy required to isolate H2 so that it can be used as a fuel. The "cost" of isolating it is greater than its "worth" as a fuel. Period.
    Yes, I understand - but look at it this way. The engine has to work hard just to overcome the internal friction, and create waste heat. It's doing all that work anyway and you're not getting anything useful for it. What if you reduced that base load of useless work by running a cooler engine and simultaneously reduced the amount of diesel needed to do overcome its base threshold before producing useful work by introducing an additional fuel (Hydrogen)?

    Leaving aside for a moment the work required to generate the HHO, the difference could be quite a lot of energy. Right? That energy is what you use to electrolytically split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Is there waste in that process too - of course there is. But depending on the specific engine you have the maths could well work out in your favour by a reasonable margin. Even if you only broke even you'd be running a cleaner engine.

    The way you're thinking about it is driving the alternator to drive generation. This is not correct. It's about ratios. When the engine idles there is

    Are you willing to review an example with an open mind?

    If your useful work (turning the prop) is 10kW, your engine is probably consuming 25-100kW of fuel. For arguments sake lets say 30kW. Of the 20kW waste lets say in an older engine 4kW is fuel and exhaust products which have not fully combusted, and the remaining 16kW is heat. These figures are just speculation but allow us to do some modelling. Happy if anyone wants to model it with real figures from their boat.

    OK? So what would it look like with an HHO system? The engine would completely burn all the diesel due to the added mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen in the air. So we'd gain something that wasn't there before, say it's 4kW. As additional Hydrogen fuel is present in each cylinder we would need less diesel to get the same power output from that explosion, so we could ease off the throttle. As the same power is delivered for less revolutions the amount of friction is reduced. Let's say that saves another 4kW. And as less heat is produced by combusting hydrogen than diesel the engine runs cooler and less heat needs to be extracted by the cooling system, which further lowers waste through radiation and conduction into the coolant (normally heated water dumped into the sea) and also saves pumping effort. Lets say that's worth 4kW. So we might save 10-12kW of the 20kW that would normally be lost.

    With an efficiency of HHO generation of 50% and alternator efficiency of 50%, we can afford to draw enough power from the system to generate around 3kW of Hydrogen to be burned in the cylinders in order to break even. This seems to be a reasonable amount to my mind in order to achieve the effects above. In this example if by adding 3kW HHO to our mix we save more than 10-12kW we win and our efficiency improves, of we save less than 10-12kW we lose efficiency. Every engine will give a different answer.


    My understanding of alternators is that they have a fixed number of windings and that the magnets don't move position, therefore inducing a current in the windings with each revolution, so their output is determined by their revolutions, not whether that output is being put to good use or not. So even at 1500rpms they could be putting out 14Vx30Amps=0,5kW (using over 2kW of fuel to do it -50% at the pulley, 15-45% in the motor, less belt losses). And it does this whether or not it is needed by the ship's systems at that time. Is this correct?

    If the naysayers don't want to consider that this is even possible that the internal combustion engine could be improved on with a bit of innovative thinking it's really no problem. I've heard of hundred of successful experiments on trucks and cars and I'm just curious to know if anyone is messing around with this technology on boats too.

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by CauliflowerEars View Post
    My understanding of alternators is that they have a fixed number of windings and that the magnets don't move position, therefore inducing a current in the windings with each revolution, so their output is determined by their revolutions, not whether that output is being put to good use or not. So even at 1500rpms they could be putting out 14Vx30Amps=0,5kW (using over 2kW of fuel to do it -50% at the pulley, 15-45% in the motor, less belt losses). And it does this whether or not it is needed by the ship's systems at that time. Is this correct?
    No.

    In simple terms, alrernators do not do any work unless work is needed to be done. The regulator determines this. The electric field on the magnets is varied by the regulator to "regulate" the output.

    If the naysayers don't want to consider that this is even possible that the internal combustion engine could be improved on with a bit of innovative thinking it's really no problem. I've heard of hundred of successful experiments on trucks and cars and I'm just curious to know if anyone is messing around with this technology on boats too.
    Given all the motivation by the world's automobile manufacturers to improve the internal combustion engine over many years - and huge improvements have been made - I'll bet they've tried just about everything. I suggest you discuss this with somebody truly knowledgable about engines.

    2 Hulls Dave

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    And I stand corrected on the efficiency of diesel engines. I lapsed into gasoline terminology - and old terminology - for a moment.

    2 Hulls Dave

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Every time some one comes up with an Hydrogen or HHO gas system it is bought buy the oil companys and dissapears from sight for ever,

    One USA bloke had his patented and got murdered very soon after and all his gear dissapeared as well.

    There are quite a few of these systems around and there are a few operating in cars here in Australia,

    But they are not commercial and dont hit the headlines,

    It is basically a two foot cubic sealed tank full of seawater, with two electrodes that go into the seawater in the tank,

    A current from your battery is applied to the electrodes with an adjustable dial and Hydrogen comes out the top through a tube, and is fed into the carburettor with a gas conversion,
    It has a flash back arrester on the tube,

    It works exactly like a gas converted car,

    Its cost to run, approx $200-00 to install in a car,
    change the seawater every six months or so when the gas starts getting sluggish,
    And thats it, no other cost involved,

    If they put this system into every day use, The oil companys and all their employees would be totally redundant in about 6 months,

    It would cripple the world economys very quickly.

    Thats why the oil companys fight so hard to keep it under wraps and stop any one trying to use it or put it on the market,

    I have been going to make one for years, but never got around to it,

    A new Zealand bloke made one and put it on the Inventors TV program years ago,
    He sold the patent within days to an oil company for one million dollars and it hasnt been seen since, And he is not allowed to disclose his system to any one,

    It worked and it worked exceptionally well, he had it in a Ford 6 cylinder car,

    You can say this is crap all you like, But it is real and it does work, No matter how you would like to say it doesnt exist,

    It does exist, Its real and it is Fact,

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Sorry, Mr. B - I don't believe any of these conspiracy claims.

    Do you have any shred of real evidence?

    For example,
    One USA bloke had his patented and got murdered very soon after and all his gear dissapeared as well.
    Who was he, what was the patent number, and where and when was he murdered? These type facts are easily obtained via public records.

    Instead of conspiracy claims, perhaps you could explain the physics and engineering that make this thing work?

    2 Hulls Dave

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    It works exactly as above as I described it,

    Google HHO Systems, I cant remember the blokes name, But it is all there on the public record, Even you can find it,

    Its no secret, Even the conspiracy bit is on there as well,

    Its been a few year since I was playing with it, But it should all be still up there and a lot more as well by now,

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    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    I'm not going to spend the time to try and locate a story of some guy getting murdered. You made the claim - please back it up.

    A quick glance at Google results for H2 injection systems produced many more conspiracy claims - and many critical stories. Here's just one result from Wikipedia:


    Hydrogen fuel enhancement is the process of using a mixture of hydrogen and conventional hydrocarbon fuel in an internal combustion engine, typically in a car or truck, to improve fuel economy, power output, or both. While the term may be used to refer to different ways of implementing this concept, it more commonly refers to the controversial scam of using hydrogen produced through an electrolysis system on-board the vehicle. Scientifically accepted methods include storing hydrogen on the vehicle as a second fuel, or reforming conventional fuel into hydrogen with a catalyst.

    There has been a great deal of research into fuel mixtures, such as gasoline and nitrous oxide injection. Mixtures of hydrogen and hydrocarbons are no exception. These sources suggest that a small efficiency increases is sometimes possible. However in all of these experiments the hydrogen has come from an external source, hydrogen created by electrolysis "on board" must always consume more energy than is saved in order to not violate conservation of energy laws.

    Many of these sources also suggest that modifications to the engine's air-fuel ratio, ignition timing, emissions control systems, electronic control systems and possibly other design elements, might be required in order to obtain any significant results. Due to the inherent complexity of these subsystems, a necessity of modern engine design and emissions standards, such claims made by proponents of hydrogen fuel enhancement are difficult to substantiate and always disputed.

    To date, Hydrogen fuel enhancement products have not been specifically addressed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No research devices or commercial products have reports available as per the "Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program." Environment Canada does have a research paper on the subject. In tests done in their laboratory in 2004 they found no improvement in engine efficiency or fuel economy.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is anyone using Hydrogen or HHO in their engines?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    IA quick glance at Google results for H2 injection systems produced many more conspiracy claims - and many critical stories. Here's just one result from Wikipedia:
    Its always amusing when a nutjob tells you in one thread to believe scientists about global warming, and in another thread they tell you that scientists are wrong about the conservation of energy laws

    All the hallmarks of a pro troll...

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