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Thread: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

  1. #1
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    Default Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Where does this come from,

    Gemini's are crap in Blue Water, or crossing oceans.

    Its only a coastal cruiser and cant handle big waves or bad weather,

    Is it from people who have never sailed in one on Blue water,
    Is it from other people who have told me so,
    My dogs best friend said it, And he's a sailing Canine thats circumnavigated on a cruise ship.

    It really has me beat, Most people I talk too, have the same opinion, You dont take Gemini's out of the lake or River,

    I have just crossed 3 oceans in my Gemini 105 MC,
    I got washed up on a beach and got wrecked, But that had nothing to do with the Sailability of the Vessel. Just the wrong anchors,

    I am not a sailor by any stretch of the imagination, I had to learn to sail my Gemini under very trying conditions at times, Huge seas and very large waves,
    Some were above my top spreader, Thats 10 metres above my deck,

    I found you dont have a down wind side centre board down, It digs in and can flip you over,
    The boat at 70 degrees beam on to the waves is not a thing you repeat after the first one,

    You dont sail with no centre boards down, it flicks you around sideways so you are beam on,

    The Gemini sails best, with the windward side centre board down fully and the leeside board full up, No matter what the wind and waves are doing, or which way you are going, Then it is a very comfortable sail, irrespective of the conditions prevailing at the time,

    Not once did I feel unsafe in my Gemini crossing the Oceans,
    Other than my inexperience a couple of times learning what the boat can and cant do,

    But now I know what it can and cant do,
    I have no problems sailing my Gemini any where in the world,

    That last trip was approx 3000 miles, Only because I couldnt sail it properly and got blown off course a few times, and I had to sleep some times, and then I had to back track from where I was to get back to where I was going, Lost a lot of miles and days doing that, Retracing my route,

    My next trip is 6000 miles just to get there, The Kimberlys in Western Australia, Via the East coast of Oz,

    Do I have any worries concerning my Gemini will get me there and back safely, No I dont,
    I know what it can do, I know what it cant do,

    I really love sailing in it, Its safe, Its sailability is excellent, Its small, It can be sailed single handed with out a problem,

    I proved that coming across from Fiji,
    I can park it safely on a sandy beach, I can motor slowly through very shallow water, 2 feet deep,

    It is an excellent all rounder, For me any way,

    I bought my Gemini after watching the owner (Tony Smith) of Performance Catamarans crossing the Atlantic Ocean for a delivery run in a 2002 Gemini 105MC,

    The northern Atlantic is similar to the Southern Ocean, Bass straight and the Tasman sea where I live, So I needed a boat that could handle huge seas and very bad weather,

    Its not that I will be going out in that crap weather, But there is every chance I could get cought out in it, And I do want a boat that can handle these types of conditions, Just to get me safely to calmer waters, and not sink,

    So where does it get its bad reputation from, I will be very interested in your replys,

    Especially people who have never sailed one, Hahahahaha

    Cheers,
    Brian,

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Brian, Awesome how adventurous you are !!!!
    followed the story on the other site and glad your reuilding her. IMHO for what its worth, I've not really heard people say they are crap as far as sailing ability. I've heard they are fast and capable.
    What I have seen though has nothing to do with sailing. I have seen poor fit and finish, huge voids in the foredeck under some very late model cats, and extreme gel coat cracking and worse on both old and new (3 years new) in places you shouldnt see cracking onThe newer ones These are a great boat for the money. Back in the early 90's these were half the price of the nearly same size pdq's, Tomcats, and others. Their costs gradually went up to be competitive, not sure their quality did.
    But again you can buy a 10 year Gem for less than a comparable Mono thats only 10 years old. Thats a win in my book

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Their costs gradually went up to be competitive,



    Err ?

    Peter.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Mr.B, what has got you ticking here? I haven't seen anything that suggests Gemini are "Crap in Blue Water"!

    As for learning as you go, SlapDash did a complete circumnavigation on that basis too. They met some nasty stuff as well.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    I personally feel the Gemini is a great coastal cruiser but not designed or built for bluewater. She was by far the most tender cat we have owned. By tender I mean she felt like she would fly a hull quite easily. Probably has to do with the width of the beam. Tony Smith did sail one across the Atlantic and afterwards said never again. He has also stated that she was designed for coastal cruising. Just because they were designed as a coastal cruiser doesn't mean they can't be sailed bluewater as many have done but maybe not as safely as other cats. Dont take this as Gem bashing as I think they are a fantastic boat for their purpose.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    May be my choice of words were wrong, Crap in Blue Water,

    May be I should have said,

    why cant they be taken on Blue Water,
    Are they unsafe on Blue Water,
    Will they sink on Blue Water.
    Does Blue Water terrify this boat,
    Will it disintegrate in Blue Water, Like a paper tissue,
    Why cant it handle a wave more than 2 feet high,
    Does it turn turtle in waves over 2 feet,
    The list goes on,

    I know it was designed as a coastal cruiser, But every where I read,
    people say it is not a Blue Water vessel.

    The question is, WHY,

    They dont give reasons, Just insinuations about its sea worthiness, or lack off,

    As for its size, does that really come into it,
    people circumnavigate in boats a lot smaller than the Gemini,

    Most Mono hulls are about the same beam, or there abouts, 14 feet,

    SMJ, no, I dont take that as Gem bashing,

    But why do you feel it was going to lift a hull,
    The only time I had that feeling was with the lee centre board down, and the main up fully,
    Lifting the Lee centre board up fully and the windward C/B down fully, that never crossed my mind after that,
    The main fully up can give you that feeling, But reefed to the first hole, or what ever its called, The main only 3/4 up. that feeling totally dissapears.

    I also found that it goes just as well on the Genoa, with the main up or fully down, I dont have a jib or screecher,
    I do have a Brand new Jib in a bag, But have no idea on how it works or how to put it up,

    DMMBruce, It just irks me, that a good, reliable, safe boat gets canned, and for no valid reason, other than hearsay,

    It was in my mind all the time crossing, that it was a coastal cruiser and I was off my head trying to do some thing this boat wasnt capable off,

    It was built to a cost,
    But they certainly didnt remove the sailability and safety of it,
    All the fittings are good quality and certainly up to the task required of them,

    Its got a few cracks here and there, nothing structural, But it is 10 years old, and it has lived in the water the full time, since being launched. Except for haul out and bottom painting,

    A few things broke on the way over, But nothing of the Gemini broke,
    The roof leaked at the rigging connections, silicon fixed that,
    The universal joint on the drive leg snapped, But thats Sillete, Its mechanical, they will break sooner or later,
    Filters blocked on the diesel, That will happen to any sized boat,
    The Davits snapped off, The welds were for show, not durability. I am a 100 % Xray Welder,
    The gear linkage fell off, Bolt undid itself,

    The steering cable exploded, But it was quite a few years old and had done some extreme work, especially with the Autopilot driving it, at 30 degrees to the waves, It was working very hard, correcting itself continously, 3000 miles across Oceans by me,
    4000 miles by the previous owner, according to the GPS Log,

    I felt very safe in it, after I sorted my lack of experience out, Trial and error, Hahahahahaha

    Tony Smith crossed the Atlantic in one,
    Slap Dash went around the world in one,
    There were a couple of other Gems that crossed oceans, But are not on International Forums about it,

    Does that give you all an idea on why I would like to know why people put them down,

    They are an excellent vessel, and really dont deserve the knocking they get,

    Yes, there are bigger and better, and worse,
    Yes there are smaller and better and worse.

    Mine was a cheapy, but thats all I could afford, But I love every bit of it, Its a magic boat,

    There are a couple of boats here on M4us that are bigger and better, The problems they are having with theirs, very unfortunate, repairs costing them huge amounts, and they are new boats,

    End of rant and waffle,

    Cheers,
    Brian,

  7. #7

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Maybe a comparison between two boats, the Gemini and the Catalac27. I don't think either were meant to be bluewater boats but I think the Catalac would be more suitable. Why? The Catalac has a wider beam to hull length. The Catalac has more bridgedeck clearance. The Catalac is built like a tank. And the Catalc has a lot less sail area and maybe a lower center of gravity. Given all that the Catalac is a slow boat. I'm sure you could reduce the sail area on the Gem but you would still lose out on the other advantages of the Catalac. Now between the two boats I would probably rather own the Gem because of the sailing ability and at this time I have no plans of crossing large oceans. The final decision is yours and what you feel comfortable with.I am in no way bashing the Gem or Catalac, everyone has their priorities.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Were with you MrB all the way. Soon your not going to chat with folks who bash any catamarans other than there's or the one design they dream about owning if they win a lottery and never own a cat. I've not heard anyone bashing a Gemini on this forum, maybe some chat about boats that cost 10 to 100 times the cost being better at bluewater sailing than the Gemin 105Mc but very few folks really own fully paid for catamarns like we do.

    Have you been hanging out on the CF forum, they bash everything

  9. #9

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Yeah, I was wondering where the alleged Gem bashing was coming from. must have got this place mixed up with someplace else.

    we thought long and hard about a Gemini. In the end, we went for a larger boat, but a 105MC would have been well appreciated, too, had not there been a sudden glut of 12M Catalacs on the market this spring.

    If they made a 38-40 ft version of the Gemini, We'd probably own one.

    As for them being "too lightly built" to go deep and wide, well, I dunno about that. Lightbulbs cross the oceans all the time, and the Titanic was built heavily enough for blue water.....
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
    http://2gringos.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    I guess it's alot like the 'Hunter Bashing' you get alot on monohull forums. It's a pre concieved idea that a small mass production boat cant be any good.

    I have read several times on forums that the 105s are 'not good' or even 'not safe' in bluewater and have scoffed at these opinions. My reason is logical, I own a Catalc 900, a boat that arguably shares it's DNA with the 105. They are similar in size, almost identical in layout (as they were designed by an ex Catalac employee) but have many modern advantages over the old 900. Daggerboards (used correctly as you state) and a modern hull design that soesn't look like it should be on a rocking horse like mine does, to name but two.

    Now, my boat has constantly amazed me how safe and stable it is in tricky conditions, it's main problems being pointing to the wind (even for a cat' the 900 is dreadfull) and 'hobbyhorsing', which would be greatly improved by the extra 4ft in length and the decent hull design.

    The only thing I don't like is that silly 'sonic leg' single drive or whatever it's called. IMHO, Cat's need twin engines both for easy docking and ecconomical crusing on just one when the wind fails you. This doesn't effect their bluewater capabilities though, if I see another Gemini Bashing thread, i'll link them to this one!
    Proud owner of a 1994 Catalac 900

  11. #11

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    YOu get a lot of this on the Yahoo Gemini group. Some people insisting they were designed and built for bluewater and other owners insisting they were designed for coastal. My thoughts are do your research and come up with your own conclusion as it seems it goes both ways.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    SimonMD,

    Your right on the mark there,

    I have also read that the Gemini is unsafe and not good for Blue Water sailing.
    On various Forums,

    Small Production Cats cant be any good for any thing other than basically sailing in your bath tub,

    This is what I am talking about,
    But where does it come from, And why do people knock the Gemini and the Catalac, Another one, Which I know nothing about, So cant comment on it,

    Even the Seawind gets flack,
    But they get put back in their place because the Seawind owners jump on them, The Seawind is also a very good small cat,

    This Forum doesnt knock Cats, Other than real genuine Problems with their boats, Not imaginery Problems That dont exist,

    We dont even knock half boats, I think because most on here are sailors or would like to be, Getting advice, Etc, Or looking for some thing to suit them,

    But being negative towards any thing is a wasted emotion, So why do they persist in it,

    CF is another world, Computer Warriors That I dont think have ever even been on a boat.
    Read all about boating from books or off the internet and are now authoritys on the subject of boating and all other associated systems,

    Then argue profusely when proven wrong in the real world, But still believe that they are right,
    But it is entertaining,

    Even with both feet in their mouth,

    Cheers,
    Brian,

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr B. View Post
    I am not a racer, and dont intend racing my Gem,
    ...........Yes I could agree you could flip a Gemini, Very easily,
    And this is why people do not consider them to be blue water boats. They need a bit too much supervision for shrt handed long distance sailing.
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  14. #14

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    yeah, that kinda nails the origin of the problem. A Gemini owner says you can flip a Gemini very easily. If that's the owner's version of it, I would have to agree that the owners who say you can flip one easily are the source of the rumors that they are not good boats for blue water.

    If you can flip it very easily, it's not really suited to be further off shore than you can comfortably swim. Or too far from a protected place to duck into in bad weather.
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
    http://2gringos.blogspot.com/

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
    And this is why people do not consider them to be blue water boats. They need a bit too much supervision for shrt handed long distance sailing.
    Thats what I was talking about, You have taken one sentence and twisted it to suit yourself,

    Dont use sentences out of context.

    You didnt add that I was beam on,
    I was on the side of a very large wave,
    The lee centre board was down, when it shouldnt have been.
    My inexperience was the problem, Not the Gemini's.

    Under those conditions, any multi hull will flip over very easily, Big or small.
    Under those conditions, a Mono hull would be rolled over, Make no mistake about it.
    Under those conditions, you will roll a ship completely over.


    As for long distance single handed sailing they are a breeze,

    Not only that, The Gemini is the safest vessel I have ever sailed or motored in,

    Use the whole paragraph, The whole description that was used, not a single line of it,

    Gringo's got the same problem as you as well.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    I believe the basic rule of thumb is the beam of the cat is about equal to the height wave that could flip them. A 14' beam has a chance to be flipped by am14' wave were a 24 ' beam would take a wave of 24' to flip. Not sure how accurate that is but the thoughts are the wider the beam the less chance of capsize from waves.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by smj View Post
    I believe the basic rule of thumb is the beam of the cat is about equal to the height wave that could flip them. A 14' beam has a chance to be flipped by am14' wave were a 24 ' beam would take a wave of 24' to flip. Not sure how accurate that is but the thoughts are the wider the beam the less chance of capsize from waves.
    Yes, that is the sort of thing that I have read quite often too, with varying different technical back-up. It is the beam relative to wave height and steepness that affects sideways capsize. It is the diagonal that affects or determines pitch-pole.

    Somewhere, a long time ago, I read that you should always use the windward centre/dagger board NOT the leeward one in bad weather.
    This usually went with articles recommending Low Aspect Ratio keels to give directional stability and allow lateral slippage in big seas. This seems to get disputed regularly.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr B. View Post
    Thats what I was talking about, You have taken one sentence and twisted it to suit yourself, Dont use sentences out of context.
    You didnt add that I was beam on,
    I was on the side of a very large wave,
    The lee centre board was down, when it shouldnt have been.
    My inexperience was the problem, Not the Gemini's.

    Under those conditions, any multi hull will flip over very easily, Big or small.
    Under those conditions, a Mono hull would be rolled over, Make no mistake about it.
    Under those conditions, you will roll a ship completely over.


    As for long distance single handed sailing they are a breeze,

    Not only that, The Gemini is the safest vessel I have ever sailed or motored in,

    Use the whole paragraph, The whole description that was used, not a single line of it,

    Gringo's got the same problem as you as well.
    Yes there are conditions where a lot of boats can get into trouble, and inexperience of the skipper increases the posibility of trouble. However, the design of the Gemini is such that there is much less margin for error (for example the latest capsize during the round the island - although at this stage I dont know any details, it was not a big surprise that it was a Gemini, just as it would not have been any great surpise if it had been an iroquois).

    Now this design does not make it a bad boat, actually in a lot of conditions it makes it a great boat, and in the past I have admired the performance of one in the solent.

    The lesson that needs to be learnt is that of understanding the characteristics of the boat and the needs of the skipper. My slow heavy privilege will never have the performance or the excitement of the Gemini, and thus is a much better short handed blue water cruiser.
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  19. #19

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    No, I don't have the problem. I have different problems.
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
    http://2gringos.blogspot.com/

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    I am just curious are you able to run the boards partially down? Or is it all or nothing? If you can is it not safe to have even a little lee board down? Or for that matter a little of both?

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