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Thread: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

  1. #21

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    I bet someone on that other forum would claim they'll just fall partially over....
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo View Post
    I bet someone on that other forum would claim they'll just fall partially over....

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyEnding View Post
    I am just curious are you able to run the boards partially down? Or is it all or nothing? If you can is it not safe to have even a little lee board down? Or for that matter a little of both?
    This is just my experience with the centre boards,

    And it was all trial and error to start with.

    You dont put the lee centre boards down at all or partially except to park it at a marina, when you put both down, Then it is very easy to park,

    The lee centre board digs in, when beam on and doesnt allow the Gemini to slip sideways through the water,

    Which could put you in a bad position, relative to tipping over, I was at 70 degrees, There are some things you just dont do on boats, and thats one of them, This applies to any boat,
    Its the same as jumping off a cliff, Both of which you just dont do,

    I found that the windward centre board fully down and the Lee fully up gave me a very comfortable ride, In all conditions, and all seas,

    I could get about 40 degrees Beam on in 7 metre waves,
    These are vertical type waves, not rollers, I dont know what they are called.
    Similar to the ones that crash on a beach before the tops curl over and break,

    The gem just cruised through, but I would not go any sharper through those waves, Lack of experience,

    Make no mistake about it, I cant sail for shit,

    Some one with experience might take a sharper angle through them, But not me,

    The safety of my vessel and me, come a long way before heroics or bravado,

    Or just plain stupidity,

    After 19 days straight, 24/7 sailing, in all kinds of weather, about 3000 miles,
    I have got it all sorted out, I am still not good at it,
    But I can take my Gemini any where now with out fear or worry that I will get in over my head,
    And it is an extremely safe and sea worthy boat.
    But dont do any thing stupid like I did at the start, That 70 degree one,

    So,
    No lee board down, not even partially, when sailing,
    Depending on your experience, Windward fully down, all the time,

    Calm seas, both fully up,

    But other more experienced sailors can give you the nitty gritty of it, and all the technical terms associated with it as well,

    Racing a Gemini. is another story, I dont know any thing about racing,

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    MrB using the windward board down is great to know when we go off shore in big swells. Currently we sail in very little wind waves with a fetch sometimes 1/8 mile or less in 20kt + breezes with maybe 10 inch wind waves, We always use the leeward board down and ocassionaly both boards down in narrow areas that we have to tack often. We some times use both boards 1/4 down (about a foot) for down wind sailing to protect the rudders from floatsome, we found no speed differene.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Mr. B - I've read with interest your comments on use of your boards. I note I have never sailed a Gem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr B. View Post
    The lee centre board digs in, when beam on and doesnt allow the Gemini to slip sideways through the water,

    Which could put you in a bad position, relative to tipping over, I was at 70 degrees, There are some things you just dont do on boats, and thats one of them, This applies to any boat
    Actually, this doesn't apply to any boat, and for the interest of anyone considering a boat with boards I'd like to clarify that your practices - notwithstanding their application to Gems - differ considerably from commonly accepted practices of other boarded boats, whether multis or monos. Using boards is simply just not that complicated and is certainly not a burden.

    I'm puzzled by your conclusion that your boards are needed off the wind to prevent slipping "sideways through the water". Why is that a bad thing? This capability of boarded boats is a huge benefit when surfing large ocean swells. You're not locked onto the "rails" of permanent keels.

    No lee board down, not even partially, when sailing,
    Depending on your experience, Windward fully down, all the time
    For the benefit of others interested in learning - this is just about completely backwards of generally applied "board physics".

    Perhaps the Gems are different and your experience with them is clearly better than mine.

    2 Hulls Dave

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo View Post
    yeah, that kinda nails the origin of the problem. A Gemini owner says you can flip a Gemini very easily. If that's the owner's version of it, I would have to agree that the owners who say you can flip one easily are the source of the rumors that they are not good boats for blue water.

    If you can flip it very easily, it's not really suited to be further off shore than you can comfortably swim. Or too far from a protected place to duck into in bad weather.
    Any Cat can flip, Even ones meant for serious offshore work. It typicaly takes a bad combination of wind waves, timing, and judgement for it to happen. The frequency of Gems that have flipped is most likely due to there being so many of them out there. I would have to say the % of them that have flipped is probably less than say a macgregor, of which there were several less made. The gemini is fast and light and they are readily and easily available for sailors of any experience. I raced smaller cats for a few years, Prindles, Nacras, even Shark 20's , never had one "trip over its boards" But have pitchpoled all of them at some point or another usually only happened one time, then I knew, lol) due to driving them too hard and went beyond the edge. Not sure I'd plan my route based on m ability to swim, but would definitly have a ditch bag prepped and handy, and a pfd on, but this goes for any boat in inclement weather.

    I will say that our heavier and slower than a Gem, Endeavour cat never gave us the feeling she would flip. We were cruising on a broad reach under half reefed main only, in 20-24kts and a huge squall line hit us, we accellerated from a steady 8-9kts to 10.5 when the wind gusted to 40+ the boat actually got weather helm and rounded herself up.
    Had the boat been lighter or we had more sail up, it could have gone horribly wrong.
    Or I got lucky,,,,
    Last edited by HappyEnding; 3rd July 2012 at 01:12 PM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    It will be nice if or when we hear the real truth about what happened and what sails they had up. As a Gemini 105Mc owner with a screecher, My guess the wind caught the 420 sq ft screecher sail and did them in with too much sail area up trying to go faster than there compitition, after all it was a race. I wonder what speed they hit before they turtled ?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    It will be nice if or when we hear the real truth about what happened and what sails they had up. As a Gemini 105Mc owner with a screecher, My guess the wind caught the 420 sq ft screecher sail and did them in with too much sail area up trying to go faster than there compitition, after all it was a race. I wonder what speed they hit before they turtled ?
    I was keeping an eye on Bramblemet at the time and the wind was reported as 25kts with regular gusts to 30kts. Race or no race they should have been reefed not flying a screecher.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    My guess the wind caught the 420 sq ft screecher sail and did them in
    ?
    I didn't know they had the screecher out. That would not be smart. It is a light air sail.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Plus, just so you know.

    The 105Ms and Mcs have asymmetrical boards. They provide lift. The leeward board is the preferred board to use keeping the windward board up. Switching boards when tacking is the routine for those trying to get the most out of the boat. I am not talking about storm conditions here like B is talking about.

    Storm conditions dictate leeward board up and some windward board - depending on heading.

    Two different scenarios boys and girls. OK.

    And;

    It will not motor in 2 ft unless you have a totally light ship, meaning little or no water, little fuel, no dingy and the crew is up on the bows to help keep the stern up.

    The drive leg in the down position makes it draw about 32". Obviously this can vary greatly. I could put my two sons on the bow or the stern and change the draw several inches. I always called 3' my limit. And at that depth the boards are up and the rudders have to be kicked up part way. The rudders draw more than the sillete drive. (great warnings to keep you from snapping the yoke ).

    Many times down wind allowing some leeway with both boards up is fine but most of the time I found that a little bit of one of boards allowed Otto to work a lot less. Worked for me.

    And to the question - Yes. The board depth is infinite from zero turns down to the full 1 1/2 (3/4). 18" (yea right) to 6'.

    I found it.
    My boat with dingy in davits, 3/4 fuel, full water, one person in the cockpit. Oh yea, beer and food.
    All components raised 23.5"
    Drive leg down 33"
    Rudders down 42"
    Boards down 73"

    I would not want to cross oceans in it. I would want something "more solid" and bigger.

    That is just me.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by therapy View Post
    I didn't know they had the screecher out. That would not be smart. It is a light air sail.
    When we ordered our new screecher sail from Dave B I asked him what was the upper limit wind to use it in and he said 25 kt's is the max he recomend.

  12. #32

    Default e: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    When we ordered our new screecher sail from Dave B I asked him what was the upper limit wind to use it in and he said 25 kt's is the max he recomend.
    In need some of what he's smoking. But seriously the sail may not disintegrate in winds under 25 but the boat may not be real happy with screecher up at that wind speed. Not happy meaning upside down.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: e: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Yep - screecher at 25 knots, I either want his sails or his drugs

  14. #34

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    perhaps the 'screecher' referred to in the reports was one of the crew attempting to communicate with the skipper concerning jib sheets and such....
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
    http://2gringos.blogspot.com/

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    When we ordered our new screecher sail from Dave B I asked him what was the upper limit wind to use it in and he said 25 kt's is the max he recomend.
    Did he mention that that would only be downwind where apparent is low enough you don't break something.

    Tony and Sue had a great sail on the C in 20 knots (I believe). But it was downwind with boat speed of 10-11. The sail is fine for that.

    Gusts to 30? Only a fool....................................

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by therapy View Post
    Did he mention that that would only be downwind where apparent is low enough you don't break something.

    Tony and Sue had a great sail on the C in 20 knots (I believe). But it was downwind with boat speed of 10-11. The sail is fine for that.

    Gusts to 30? Only a fool....................................
    Dave's exact words were " max 25kts" not gusting 30kt breezes and down wind only.

    You can't have any of my perscription

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Dave's exact words were " max 25kts" not gusting 30kt breezes and down wind only.

    You can't have any of my perscription
    It wasn't me that wants your drugs.

    I wonder though if Dave was simply talking about how strong his sail is and not so much about the narrow design of the Gemini.

    Either way though, for me, I would not use it in even 20. Too chicken since the first reef is called for with normal jib and main at 20.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Another way of looking at the original question is to pose it a different way. Would you be more likely to go to sea with an experienced sailor on a flippable cat or with an inexperienced sailor on a stronger boat, say a 38 foot cat of your favorite brand? If you have to ponder a little before answering the question, you are acknowledging that the sailor is as important as the boat. Many of us would choose to go with Mr. B on his flippable cat rather than Mr. Z, who gets his main stuck in the lazy jacks every time he raises it on his Lagoon 38. Most of us having sailing abilities somewhere between B and Z, and we opt for something we think we can sail safely. That's no criticism of Gemini; it's just risk assessment.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    Hey, wait a minute. What happened to Mr. A?
    Tropical island life in the Devil's Triangle.
    http://2gringos.blogspot.com/

  20. #40

    Default Re: Gemini's are Crap in Blue Water,

    As far as I know,

    Mr A was arrested and charged by the Coast Guard for illegal trawling, lack of fishing permits and absence of reglementary fishing lights & marks when his boat was sighted in an inverted configuration inshore of the Daggabod fish hatchery.
    His comments that his boat was a confirmed blue-water unit were considered irrelevant when compared to the effective color of the water.
    Mr A's heavily customised Gemproutalac 5-hull daggersailor will be sold to to pay for the fines,bail and hatchery damage.
    Mr B has expressed a possible interest in purchasing some of the hulls.

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