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Thread: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

  1. #1
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    Default Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Hi folks,

    anyone have a recommendation for surveying a Lagoon in the southern tip of Italy? Or a link to an italian surveyor organization?

    Thanks

  2. #2

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Sorry I can't help with a surveyor but something to be aware of if buying through an Italian broker is that some of them expect the buyer to pay 50% of their commission for selling a boat! They add this on to the purchase price + VAT. I had never heard of this before but two Italian brokers have stated this when I have enquired about boats.

    Out of interest what kind of boat is it you are buying?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Its a Lagoon 380 owners version - enough boat to keep the family happy for the holidays.
    I am interested in it but there are a few things I need a pro to look at. Engines and saildrives specifically, so I will need a mechanic as well.

    The broker is charging me 3%, I suppose the seller is also charged 3%. Of course I simply lowered my offer accordingly.

    But there are other funny things going on in this deal. I shall organize & pay for the de-registration. So far this was always done & paid for by the seller.
    In Germany this is one letter, costs 0 EUR and is processed within three days. In Italy it seems to take lots of paperwork, several visits at different authorities who don't speak a word English and costs 1400 EUR and a decent part of your lifespan in Italy. No wonder these countries have problems.

    While it seems we have reached agreement on the boat price we don't much agree on the process and who pays.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    No wonder these countries have problems.
    Precisely!

    All I can say as far as buying a boat in Italy is concerned is tread carefully. Good luck.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    I'm curious. You recently sold your 410 and now you're buying a 380. So what does a 380 offer that a 410 doesn't?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    We sailed the 410 from Europe to the caribbean and cruised there for a season. But we had no real interest and no time to take her back to Europe. I don't trust in delivery crews and putting her onto a carrier was 25.000 USD.

    So we tried to sell and got a good offer immedieately. She sold for a price that covered our own buying price plus all boat costs during the two year period.

    Our original plans were to go a few years without a boat and buy when time comes again to go for a longer trip but ... well... being completely landlocked is a strange feeling.
    my better half finally agreed that a boat isn't such a bad investment these days...


    All 410 that I have seen are either too expensive or are worn out. The 380 just looks like a good deal. So why not?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Contact the International Institute of Marine Surveying: http://www.iims.org.uk/default.asp You should find a suitable member of the institute in Italy.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Rabbi, if you are a member of the Cruising Association, they have several HLR (Honorary Local Representative) in Italy and whichever covers the area you are looking at, he/she will certainly be able to mention a local surveyor. PM me if you want more details. I am a member and I have the Year Book that lists the HLR's, but my geography is so bad I don't know which one would be relevant to the toe of Italy.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  9. #9

    Default Re: deletion of Italian registry

    I recently brokered an Italian registered vessel. The contracts were signed on July 5th 2012, and we literally received the final deflag / deletion documents about 2 weeks ago. And now they have to be translated by a certified translator, so that the new owner can register his yacht with the USCG.

    The amountof paperwork needed to satisfy the Italian bureaucrats was unbelievable. I have never seen a file with so many documents, all had to be notarized, and the Seller had to pay quite a bit of money for the deletion.

    good luck, just be aware that once the survey is done, you are only half way there!

    regards, Peter Wiersema

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Contact the International Institute of Marine Surveying: http://www.iims.org.uk/default.asp You should find a suitable member of the institute in Italy.
    Good idea, I looked it up but was abit disappointed. They only have 6 members in Italy, the nearest one seems to be some 500km away. And they all seem to be more geared towards big ships and cargo.

    Anyway, I will drop them a line and ask if they know a buddy who works on the smallers ones.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: deletion of Italian registry

    Quote Originally Posted by catabroker View Post
    I recently brokered an Italian registered vessel. The contracts were signed on July 5th 2012, and we literally received the final deflag / deletion documents about 2 weeks ago. And now they have to be translated by a certified translator, so that the new owner can register his yacht with the USCG.

    The amountof paperwork needed to satisfy the Italian bureaucrats was unbelievable. I have never seen a file with so many documents, all had to be notarized, and the Seller had to pay quite a bit of money for the deletion.

    good luck, just be aware that once the survey is done, you are only half way there!

    regards, Peter Wiersema
    I already feared that this is the case. And all that burden is put onto the (foreign) buyer, just as they expect the buyer to pay the broker they hired. Strange country...

    Deregistering in Germany with the BSH takes 3 days and they even provide the deletion confirmation in English.

    In my purchase agreement draft I included a prerequisite that the seller provides the boat completely unencumbered, unregistered and divested from the Italian flag. Broker said the seller won't accept this because its uncommon but in that case I will just walk away.

    Life is too short to be ripped off & fooled for months by some Italian bureaucrats


    On the other hand I could just register the boat without a prior de-registration. They only require a purchase agreement and bill of sale for proof of ownership. I just need to tick the wrong box indicating there is no foreign registration.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Rabbi, thanks for the reply and extra info.

    Good luck and let us know how things work out.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Thanks to those who tried to help, especially Mike.

    Seller and I just agreed that we disagree.



    If anybody else wants to give it a try
    http://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2003/...ountry.italien

    An overview:
    The boat is showing above average, just a bit too little maintenace. It has some quality troubles with the varnish, which peels off in some areas but at least so far only in two visible areas. It needs new saildrive gaskets and maybe new clutches (smelly and dark oil). One saildrive requires new new ring (the connector to the mounting base). Engines run rough but start easily and show no smoke at all. I haven't had Volvos before, maybe they are supposed to run a bit rough.
    Genset and watermaker are old low quality italian models hacked into the forward lockers. Not a decent install.
    Sails are original but hardly used. The bimini is a flimsy DIY model.
    All starboard cleats show signs of significant overloading, with chipped off gelcoat underneath.
    No fibreglass repairs as far as I could see.

    I think with a few K in maintenance and fixing the SD and lots of cleaning, greasing, varnishing she will be really good.

    Just be prepared to do it the Italian way.
    ...and that you may eventually face a major VAT bill. Seller will only provide an invoice based on the book value, which after 9 year could be around 20k EUR. If you meet a clever customs officer on your way around Europe you may be charged the tax difference between the 20k and the assessed / contract value. Since all these countries are in financial trouble it's not a matter of IF but only of WHEN.

    If you want more details, drop me a line

  14. #14

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    Just be prepared to do it the Italian way.
    ...and that you may eventually face a major VAT bill. Seller will only provide an invoice based on the book value, which after 9 year could be around 20k EUR. If you meet a clever customs officer on your way around Europe you may be charged the tax difference between the 20k and the assessed / contract value. Since all these countries are in financial trouble it's not a matter of IF but only of WHEN.


    Not sure I follow. The broker should provide a bill of sale (not invoice) for the amount paid. Are you saying the broker was refusing to do that?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    The bill of sale does not state the selling price, at least mine never did. Only the purchase agreement / contract states the price.

    But whenever you enter a European country you may be asked to povide a proof that VAT was paid. BIll of sale or contract do not include VAT and even if VAT is stated it's not a proof.
    There are only two ways to proof VAT paid, either some official customs form documenting VAT paid status or an invoice including VAT.
    If you buy from a company you can use that invoice, if you buy from a private seller you need the invoice that the seller received when he bought. If you fail to provide that invoice because you never received it the boat is considered VAT unpaid by customs. Even if the contract states VAT paid, because this is no proof.

    As a result you may be charged the VAT on the current boat value.
    If you provide an invoice that is unbelieveable low (say 20k) you can expect to be charged the VAT for the difference between the low invoice and assessed boat value.

    If the contract clearly states that the seller guarantees the VAT paid status you may have a chance to get it back from the seller. But I guess only if you take him to court - which I would do in Germany, but not in Italy.
    Beside that the owner was not willing to include that guarantee for exactly this reason.


    Basically that guy was trying to cheat on the tax and wanted me to pay for his cheating.
    Last edited by Rabbi; 15th December 2012 at 09:17 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    The bill of sale does not state the selling price, at least mine never did. Only the purchase agreement / contract states the price.
    I'm not familiar with German or Italian Bill of Sale conventions but in the UK a Bill of Sale includes the selling/buying price. I would not accept a Bill of Sale that didn't include the price being paid!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    I never had it on the bill of sale, not in Germany, not in Spain and not in the US. seems to be different everywhere.

    Anyway, I'm out of this game and I learned that Italy is probably not my favourite place to buy a boat. Next time I will check the procedures before spending money on flights.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    I know this thread has reached a conclusion, but it seemed the best place to add a recent experience of mine.

    I intend to post a more detailed write-up of my experience purchasing a yacht in Spain and having it delivered to Singapore. Maybe a new thread, when I find time.

    Part of that saga involved delivery from Ibiza in Spain to Livorno in Italy, for loading onto a Sevenstar ship. Sevenstar appointed, on my behalf, an Italian Customs agent to process "import/export" documentation. The agent was efficient and helpful but insisted that I needed to obtain the seller's EORI number (which seems to be an EU corporate tax registration number) whereas I wanted to 'export' the yacht as my property, being a Brit working overseas. I had all the necessary documents (Bill of Sale, insurance in my name, etc) to prove ownership.

    It's true that the seller was a charter company but it seems that companies only need EORI registration if they are involved in export business. So, the seller had no EORI number and Italians said "Sorry, cannot export the yacht"..

    I asked the agent what would have happened if I had purchased the yacht from an individual rather than a company - no answer. I asked how they would have handled it if I had sailed around the Med for 6 months and only then shipped the yacht to Singapore - also no answer.

    In the end, to the credit of the agent, they managed to generate a genuine EORI number from somewhere, to help me out. The yacht is now in transit.

    I don't know if this was an Italian problem or a Euro-problem but I was worried for a while!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Surveyor recommendation - South of Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Contact the International Institute of Marine Surveying: http://www.iims.org.uk/default.asp You should find a suitable member of the institute in Italy.
    Thanks for sharing!
    They do have an updated list of members all over Europe.
    _______________________________________________
    Dumitru from customs training

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