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Thread: Bi-Rig Cats

  1. #1
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    Default Bi-Rig Cats

    I am thinking hard a lot about my next cat.

    Having sailing more than 1,000M on the Jeff Schionning designed Radical Bay 8000 in coastal waters around Cape Town I really like this concept.

    So my question to the forum is:
    Who has designed bi-rigged ocean going cruising cats?

    I know of (in no order of importance)

    - Jeff Schionning
    - Derek Kelsall
    - Chris White ( for me his new design would qualify)

    Has anyone done a wing-sail bi-rig?
    Roger

    ------------------
    I look to the future, because that's where I am going to spend the rest of my life - George Burns

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Me, though none have been built. I did sail across the Pacific with an unstayed rig. I think free standing rigs are much safer, as they don't have the huge amount of critical, heavily loaded stress points that stayed rigs have.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Hi Roger

    You might look at this:

    http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/

    Cheers

    Hennie

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by TanJera View Post
    Hi Roger

    You might look at this:

    http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/

    Cheers

    Hennie
    Back on the internet after a very long absence - a number of years.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Not wing sails, but a bi-rigged ocean cruising cat: http://www.jdmarine.co.uk/moxley-12.html

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    Not wing sails, but a bi-rigged ocean cruising cat: http://www.jdmarine.co.uk/moxley-12.html
    Nifty clip of a Schionning design - wing masts with a twin rig sailing fast in light airs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bpNEy9pBU

    -Link courtesy of a poster on Multihulls Digest newsletter, Rodger Farquhar.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Another interesting twin rigged cat: http://www.multihulls.uk.com/index.p...ats/1264tiki30
    I saw this one in Plymouth after she'd crossed the Atlantic.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Are you familiar with Cat2fold.
    http://www.cat2fold.com/

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    This rig should appeal to BigCat!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
    Are you familiar with Cat2fold.
    http://www.cat2fold.com/

    Yes...I do love my biplane rig!
    www.cat2fold.wordpress.com
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by solarbri View Post

    Yes...I do love my biplane rig!
    www.cat2fold.wordpress.com
    Hi solarbri,

    What's the reason in this picture you're flying a jib off the leeward hull? Would this be in preparation for a tack where the backwinded jib could help push the bows around?
    Roger

    ------------------
    I look to the future, because that's where I am going to spend the rest of my life - George Burns

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by multihullsailor6 View Post
    Hi solarbri,

    What's the reason in this picture you're flying a jib off the leeward hull? Would this be in preparation for a tack where the backwinded jib could help push the bows around?
    No, I'm using it like a Genoa to go faster!
    Works GREAT for light winds! but considerably more work than just using the two mains.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by solarbri View Post
    No, I'm using it like a Genoa to go faster!
    Works GREAT for light winds! but considerably more work than just using the two mains.
    Interesting idea. What's the set up, one or two genoas?

    On the Radical Bay 8000 we tried, rather unsuccsessfull, a single jibing jib ( a windsurfer sail which was flying around the cellar and kind of fitted) which was attached to a higher and lower metal wire running between the masts and bows so it could slide to and be sheeted from the the leeward bow.
    Roger

    ------------------
    I look to the future, because that's where I am going to spend the rest of my life - George Burns

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by multihullsailor6 View Post
    Interesting idea. What's the set up, one or two genoas?

    On the Radical Bay 8000 we tried, rather unsuccsessfull, a single jibing jib ( a windsurfer sail which was flying around the cellar and kind of fitted) which was attached to a higher and lower metal wire running between the masts and bows so it could slide to and be sheeted from the the leeward bow.
    The boat came with the two mainsails and a free flying jib. The jib flies on its own luff and attaches to a turning block 3/4 of the way up the mast. It is hard to set in higher winds!
    The red, orange, yellow sail you see flying is a used "drifter" sail I bought last summer on eBay. It used to be hank on. I had it resized slightly, bought a continuous line furler, added a turning block at each masthead, and a "soft padeye" way out on the bow.
    Now, for reaching at 45-60 apparent, I am hitting 1-1.25 times wind speed (under 10 knots), which I am very happy about.
    I prefer having the large genoa/drifter on the leeward mast for several reasons;
    1) it doesn't interfere with the other mainsail like it would if I were to fly it on the windward mast.
    2) the sheeting is off the deck out of the way of the living space.
    3) with both halyards attached to the head of the sail (both leeward and windward), the windward mast can help share the load put on the leeward mast .
    Tacking is a big job with this sail plan though. To tack I must first furl the sail (which we have had are fair share of trouble doing well), release the halyard, switch the furler over from one bow to the other, lift the sail with the other halyard, re-run the sheet to the opposite stern winch, tack, then open the sail and go. I generally only use a foresail if I am on one long tack all day, or if I am bored and want some work to do.
    Occasionally, when working upwind in light air, I will use the jib on the windward mast, the genoa/drifter on the leeward and both mains up. Tacking becomes a junk show, but we have been able to use this "4 pack" of sails quite successfully.
    The boat is currently stored on its trailer for the summer in Mexico. I am home working for $ and I'm also trying to build a simple 1/4" ply hard dodger/cuddy cabin to replace the soft walled tent we currently have on deck.
    Time will tell how that turns out...

    Cheers,
    Brian
    www.cat2fold.wordpress.com
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
    This rig should appeal to BigCat!
    Actually, we've (Bertrand Fercot and I,) conversed via posts on the Yahoo junkrig group. He has some odd, original ideas that I don't quite follow. My ideas are just based on airplane wing studies, folks writing about hinged junk sails, and experience with the Hasler junk rig. The rig shown on this boat is a 'Swing Wing' rig, which is not foil shaped. It is sharp at the leading edge. I think such rigs should have a foil shape designed to be optimum at low speeds, (low speeds for an airplane, I mean,) like the Tom Speer suggested Clark Y foil. http://www.tspeer.com/ Tom's an aerodynamic boffin in the Seattle area, who, I think, works at Boeing. He was also a consultatnt for BMW Oracle's rig. Bertrand is building a bigger Wharram Cat, and I think he plans a similar rig to the one in the photo.
    Catching up, I see his new boat is in use, the "Grand Pha." His old boat was the 'Pha.' http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/prof...ndrtrandFERCOT
    Last edited by BigCat; 25th July 2013 at 10:59 AM. Reason: update info
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  16. #16

    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Are there any sources for the wishbones for the aerodynamic biplane rigs? I see Bertrand has gone from beautiful wooden versions in Pha to metal (aluminum?) for Grand Pha.

    Pretty esoteric stuff for us backyard builders to tackle. . .

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntnose View Post
    Are there any sources for the wishbones for the aerodynamic biplane rigs? I see Bertrand has gone from beautiful wooden versions in Pha to metal (aluminum?) for Grand Pha.

    Pretty esoteric stuff for us backyard builders to tackle. . .
    The front half is just an airfoil, like the section of a rudder or dagger board. The after half is just a straight rigid batten which pivots at the end of the foil section. At cruising boat speeds, it hardly matters what foil you use. Tom Speers, probably a PhD, suggest a Clark Y section. If you google image search 'Clark Y' you will find drawings of it online. I should mention that you take the upper half of the Clark Y section, and make the other half in the same shape. That is, make it symmetrical.

    Also, in the files on the Yahoo junk rig group, key word Tystie, you can find an article for making wishbones out of aluminum tubing at: https://xa.yimg.com/df/junkrig/Tysti...&type=download
    Last edited by BigCat; 9th January 2015 at 08:48 AM.
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Dereck Kelsall has a couple of vessels being built now by Ballotta in Peru with twin rigs. Should be in the water later this year.

    60ft cat http://www.cata-ballotta.com/CurrenP_kss61.htm

    16m Proa http://www.cata-ballotta.com/CurrenP_kss16m.htm

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Quote Originally Posted by downunder View Post
    Dereck Kelsall has a couple of vessels being built now by Ballotta in Peru with twin rigs. Should be in the water later this year.
    Derek's design, Cool Change, has been sailing in New Zealand for a number of years, now. http://www.sailcoolchange.co.nz/boat-charter-catamaran/

    Attached is a drawing my my latest design, one well suited to bringing along family and friends.
    BC64OVDBsm.jpg
    Currently concentrating on http://earthnurture.com .

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Bi-Rig Cats

    Realise that. Good to see more happening.

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