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Thread: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    That is what I would expect.
    If anything the parachute would be even better ....... I must try it one day
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    This is getting stupid ...

    Yes, I have been on lee shores due to change of wind ..... and have re-located if I perceived the anchorage being untenable as has happened a few times in Hawaii islands. When there is a wind change, it takes time to build up waves ..... so there is a window of opportunity.

    Paul, I've told you my tactics several times. You continue to ignore what I say. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I do care that you are misrepresenting what I say ..... because someone could actually believe you and follow advice based on your flawed understanding of physics.

    I'll leave this discussion for the moment and wait until you have had time to consider what the Dashew's have to say ......

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    I truly do not want to misrepresent your views.

    Looking back i do not think I have done so. I think you even write that a parachute maybe needed when you run out of sea but then you also stated you may get rid of it.

    Some of what I am writing is meant to be with some humour.

    Anyway, we agree I must read Dashew and get back to you with a report of what I find and what I think of it on this thread.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    because someone could actually believe you and follow advice based on your flawed understanding of physics.
    That is unfair.
    There are very many reports of parachutes being used on cats with great success and if anything I am in the mainstream on this matter and you the one countering that mainstream. Being in the mainstream does not make it right and hence the Dashew book needs to be read to give the opposite view a fair appraisal.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    I actually said that a parachute anchor came with the boat, and despite it's weight and bulk I would keep it just in case ....

    I am sure that people have used parachute anchors with great effect. I am not disputing this. What I am saying is that I believe that they could be dangerous in severe weather ..... and I am talking 50+ knots in open ocean .... and I have tried to explain my reasoning behind this.

    I'll return to this in a week or so. Hopefully we can have a more constructive discussion.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    OK, I stayed up late reading through the Dashew book.

    I have selected the bits concerning parachutes and have not read every detail of the rest. I do however now understand where are are coming from.

    The evidence on the catamaran that pitchpoled backwards points to the line breaking through chafe but then the line was not well secured and ended up on a cleat that certainly could not take the load. I would not tolerate that arrangement and would agree how important it is when using a parachute to avoid chafe - that is just what I have done on my system.

    The book mentions some capsizes in Europe of cats with fine stern sections that lacked buoyancy ....... no further details were given.

    The book points out that running with the wind is a viable alternative BUT I quote:-
    "If the crew does not have the skills for running off like this, or the boat is not of the proper design to employ this approach you are forced to utilize some form of drogue or parachute" Page 397
    So it is not for everyone.

    It agrees with the use of the parachute on the Pardy's boat and accepts they get the upwind slick but argues that many boats that they have asked do not get this hence they confine their agreement to the type of boat the Pardy's use.

    It points out that to take the breaking waves over the bow the cat has to have strong windows etc.

    However, whilst the book shows a preference for running with the weather, its main concerns of the parachute are the:-
    1. The chafe - that can be solved with a proper set up. I agree with the concern.
    2. The need for decent buoyancy at the stern - I would agree that is needed.
    3. Strong windows etc to take any breaking waves. Agreed.

    The book, which I will spend more time on reading, I have learnt from. I have learnt that some sailors cope well in heavy winds by sailing with the weather. But I have not learnt of any concerns that changes my mind that the best solution for Suliere is to use the parachute anchor.

    I know of sailors on this forum who have done well using parachutes, I have read of lots of successful uses on cats and do not believe the information was fiddled for commercial reasons. The one detailed case in the Dashew book appeared to have the rode break and it then pitchpoled - they also tend to somewhat limit their writings to high performance cruising cats.

    I am going to deploy the parachute for the first time as a practice and video the results. It will need a decent practice wind to do this in of course.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    My view>

    Drogue - (abbott drogue or similar) usefull for slowing down to avoid slamming into the wave ahead of you when running downwind.

    Series drogue - If your stern offers some protection to the possibility of a breaking wave then this offers the safest method of living in a big breaking sea. However, this will need a bit more sea room than a parachute anchor.

    Parachute - If sea room is tight, this offers the best method of survival, but the forces on the boat will be much greater than with a series drogue.

    Both series drogue and parachute represent significant forces on the securing point, and this needs to be reinforced significantly.

    Personally, I want both methods, and have reinforced points on bow and stern, that offer a means of securing that should be chafe free.
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    I think the main purpose of a drogue is to prevent losing control on the rudders with the stern coming around and the boat broaching.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    I have no survival condition experience and don't want to become an expert in this. However I have deployed a (shortened) JSD once to slow down our Lagoon 410 to adjust the ETA in a F7 with developed seas.

    Deployment was easy, just attach it, decide how much line / cones you want and drop the weight overboard. Everything else happens automatically, once deployed the breaking forces slowly increase as more cones get from vertical to horizontal position.
    While deployed the JSD provided very elastic breaking forces. Whenever some good wave pushed us, with a little delay the JSD's breaking forces picked up too, so with some second delay the boat slowed down.
    The boat remained fully under control, the autopilot had an easy time to keep the boat straight downwind, or a few degrees off if there was a slight wind shift. There are no shock loads, the boat travels along at slow speed. Both the boat and the JSD generate some turbulences, which according to my experience seems to "flatten" the following seas. While in use the JSD is in "automatic mode", no need to adjust anything. Since there are many cones out there, there is no need to watch the distance of the JSD.
    We had no breaking seas, however the stern always lifted very fast and I am relatively confident that no wave would break into the cockpit.

    I think the biggest problem is to get the line length, the number of cones and the weight at the end right for your particular boat. Too much weight and you need too much speed to bring the cones into effective position. Too little weight an you loose elasticity because all cones are horizontal all the time.
    I know that there are tables on some JSD sites which give you the correct numbers, however I doubt that there is enough real world data available on this, so all of this is just rule of thumb.

    JSD retrieval is a pain, though. Quite some work as one can't continuosly use a winch because of the cones.



    I never had a sea anchor and I don't "believe" in it. It has to keep the boat static, period. Otherwise the boat will experience rudder damage. If anything goes wrong the situation can turn from bad to much worse.

    I always asked myself: How do I actually deploy a sea anchor in really bad conditions wihtout adding more risks? Turn the boat into the wind, drop off this large sea anchor while 50kn wind are blowing into my face without tangling it somewhere. Then back off 200m to pay out the line without beeing pushed hard by any waves. Doesn't sound easy to me.
    And how can I ensure that I continously have the right distance to the sea anchor? As soon as it gets to the face of the next wave it can pop out of the wave when under load. I mean we are talking about huge line loads here, so adjusting line lengths can be next to impossible or at least very dangerous.
    If the sea anchor pops out, the line breaks or gets tangled somehow the boat will be pushed back hard by the next wave. The sea anchor represents a single point of failure, and if it fails there is a real risk of significant rudder damage or backward pitch poling even in non-survival conditions.



    Of course there is an exception where I would gladly try to deploy a sea anchor: The lee shore, where a JSD can only reduce the speed of beaching

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Good reading.

    Sea anchors really have to be deployed early - I would agree it would be messy in 50 knots.

    The aspects that concern me in using sea anchor is if there is any backward movement and hence damage to the rudders. yet there are so many well documented cases of cats using them to great effect.

    The difficulty is that not one of us on this thread has actually used one in anger.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    The difficulty is that not one of us on this thread has actually used one in anger.
    I wish Dave Abbott would join in on this as he has real experience to add.
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Maxing Out drogue experience:-
    Click Here
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Maxing Out - on parachutes etc:Click here
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    There has been no mention here of the SeaBrake device which seems to cover each of the two things you are talking about. Drastic stopping power deployed from the bow. Or controlled slower progress when deployed from the stern.

    The device sounds interesting, and well tested. http://www.seabrake.com/

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Mike
    The sea brake is really just a drogue and is too small to be a parachute from the bow.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    Mike
    The sea brake is really just a drogue and is too small to be a parachute from the bow.
    According to their site, you just set it up differently so as to provide much greater drag. If I understood it correctly of course.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Yes - I have drogue that is the same but it cannot be made to in anyway match a parachute
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Don't have it, haven't read it, but I came across a note that
    Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing, Sixth Edů by Peter Bruce has an added section on catamarans.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post

    I never had a sea anchor and I don't "believe" in it. It has to keep the boat static, period. Otherwise the boat will experience rudder damage. If anything goes wrong the situation can turn from bad to much worse.

    I always asked myself: How do I actually deploy a sea anchor in really bad conditions wihtout adding more risks? Turn the boat into the wind, drop off this large sea anchor while 50kn wind are blowing into my face without tangling it somewhere. Then back off 200m to pay out the line without beeing pushed hard by any waves. Doesn't sound easy to me.
    And how can I ensure that I continously have the right distance to the sea anchor? As soon as it gets to the face of the next wave it can pop out of the wave when under load. I mean we are talking about huge line loads here, so adjusting line lengths can be next to impossible or at least very dangerous.
    If the sea anchor pops out, the line breaks or gets tangled somehow the boat will be pushed back hard by the next wave. The sea anchor represents a single point of failure, and if it fails there is a real risk of significant rudder damage or backward pitch poling even in non-survival conditions.



    Of course there is an exception where I would gladly try to deploy a sea anchor: The lee shore, where a JSD can only reduce the speed of beaching
    It would be better if you actually learned a bit about sea anchors, before commenting on them.

    You "pre deploy" a sea anchor. When you leave for an ocean passage, you have the bridles shackled on to your hard points, the rode cable-tied down your staunchions, (on the outside) and the sea anchor in your cockpit.

    To deploy, you simply throw the sea anchor overboard on the windward side. The boat will drift to leeward, the floats will pull the anchor out of it's bag, as it inflates it will snap the cable ties and you're "anchored".

    It can't "pop" out of a wave - it is held down by a length of chain so it is too deep to do that. (A float prevents it from sinking completely, which would make recovery very difficult))

    Because of this, you DONT have to adjust the length of rode.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Drogue or Sea Anchor? What and When?

    Over the past week I have talked to a few very experienced cat sailors down here that have been through cyclone conditions. Unfortunately I wasn't able to convince them that they should comment on this thread, although some have read it.

    I can understand their reserve. We enjoy sailing, and we like to talk through our experiences. Generally we steer clear of topics such as anchoring .... unless it's about somebody else's failed attempt. But subjects involving safety and heavy weather sailing are usually good entertainment.

    I have also considered leaving this thread alone. I have after all made my position very plain. I'll just state this one last time:

    Wave crests travel at close to the speed of the wave. It is the wave crest that does the damage. In storm systems these waves can be coming from several directions at once. It is the combination of the wave trains that create dangerously high wave crests .... that end up collapsing. It is these crests that tend to be regarded as 'rogue waves' and can be travelling perpendicular to the prevailing wave train.

    If a catamaran is tethered to a parachute anchor it is extremely vulnerable to the forces from the breaking crests and is not protect at all from a 'rogue wave'.

    There was some support from my friends for drogues in extreme conditions. No support at all for parachutes in extreme conditions, although they could be of use in lesser conditions where dangerous wave crests were not expected.

    My suggestion : Keep an open mind. Watch how the crests are formed and how they relate to the parent wave trains. Hopefully by the time you get in severe weather conditions you will have enough experience to make an informed decision for yourself.

    Just one last bit of advice: Monohullers reef to the mean wind condition. Experienced multihullers reef to the strength of the gust.

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