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Thread: Top Down Furling Video

  1. #21

    Default Re: Top Down Reefing Video

    Aside from some of the basic terminology issues, as a rigger and sailmaker for 45 years, I have to comment on 3 issues, the Torsional rope is on the luff not the leach, the Screacher halyard is twisting due to lack of distance between the attachment point and the Halyard sheave, or put an extension on the head of the halyard swivel so it goes higher up the rig.....before furling tension the screacher halyard to resist the twisting, you get a similar phenomenon with jib fullers if the sail is not far enough up the foil you get a halyard wrap same concept same fix.
    The third and most important is the fact that top down furling does not work as well as the Facnor Mid Luff Furling system....

    http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/as...rs/default.asp

    Please note that the boat in the video is sailing in a good breeze, gybes and Furls with no issues.....a KISS product if ever there was one, it can also be used on either a Screacher/Code O sail and then used on an A-Kite, Gennaker, Cruising Spinnaker...or what ever you want to call it.
    I have no association with Facnor just hate to see more people get sucked in to the Top Down system........Good Luck
    Cheers
    Oceanpearl

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Top Down Reefing Video

    Harmening,

    Welcome to the premier, all-inclusive, multihull forum!

    Our feerless leader, Paul, will no doubt reply to your question as soon he is done signing autographs and schmoozing for the paparazzi (he is an acclaimed filmographer you know!).

    Lots of great folks with knowledge to share on M4Us!

    Welcome aboard!

    Joe Mc

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Top Down Reefing Video

    Ok in response to that:-
    1. Agreed the anti-torsion rope is on the luff not the leach .... I was not aware I stated anything different but if I did I apologise. I will check the video. In any event it is clear throughout that it is in the luff so nobody has been deceived.

    2. There is no doubt that MY halyard twisting issue for the screecher was fixed by the anti-torsion rope down the luff of the line. So it was the easiest solution to my problem and was a 100% fix. What you are claiming is that my screecher was et up wrongly by St Francis marine. That may be right but I had to fix the issue and the solution solved it 100%. The expert riggers I consulted on this suggested the anti-torsion rope solution and they were right. Is there anything you disagree with in that?

    3. I was not familiar with the Facnor system and would like to learn more about it. To me from the small video on the site it seems very little different to top down furling. I am puzzled as to the claim it can be used for both a screecher which requires a rope up its luff whereas the asymmetric sails fly loose on all three sides ... please explain?

    There is not particular problem in furling and unfurling using a top down furling system...... please explain why the Facnor system is better?

    I have no axe to grind for any system. I do not nor have ever claimed to be an expert sailor ... as regards dealing with the sails part of sailing I am just three years into it. I have no commercial tie up or inducement with any supplier. You are an expert rigger with obviously different views to other riggers I have met so we can all learn by you explaining why the Facnor system is better than the other systems.

    I wish I could understand how it can grab the mid part of the sail first ..... the video shows it winding from both top and bottom which is what top down furling does.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Top Down Reefing Video

    Our feerless leader, Paul, will no doubt reply to your question as soon he is done signing autographs and schmoozing for the paparazzi (he is an acclaimed filmographer you know!).

    Lots of great folks with knowledge to share on M4Us!
    ???????? Why the cynicism?

    If members do not like the free videos then they do not have to watch them.
    I put a lot of effort into them just for the pleasure of doing them. This one was my experience that I pass on for what it is worth.

    Its seems in life some folks do and others just snipe. Maybe thats why I can afford the boat
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Top Down Reefing Video

    Also if you look at the post above others claim that the only way for a screecher to work is to use an anti-torsion rope so they agree with my riggers.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Having just watched the video for the first time after posting yes I kept interchanging furling with reefing ... I was not ware of it until i watched it today!! So sorry for that .... its all furling

    I can find no reference to putting the anti-torsion top in the leach of the sail only the luff .... maybe I kissed it.

    The video took about two weeks to put together and the truth is that I was so keen to get it out I did not proof it or pout it through the processes that a commercial video goes through but then it is free after all.

    I also wish to point out that, I, of course consult expert riggers etc when making decisions.

    Top down reefing is new to the market and it took some effort and expense for us to learn the lessons we did and that we pass on in the video. It would be fair to say that the manufacturers really do not do a good job explaining the differences. In fact we were very confused and so made the few mistakes we feature in the video.

    We both criticise St Francis Marine as well as praise St francis marine during the course of the video. That is because we say it as it is.

    I am ore than interested in learning why the Facnor system is superior to the top down reefing systems of other manufacturers and look forward to the discussion on the subject.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Sorry Paul.

    No malice or cynicism was intended. The humor didn't come across as I wished.


    Better luck next time (for me).

    Joe Mc

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    OK Jo.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    When watching the video its should be clear that top down furling is actually top and bottom reefing. The process starts off winding from the top with the switches not turning then the swivel starts to turn and the sail winds up from the bottom.

    I can see not a jot of difference between the way that the Facnor unwinds and all others unwind. The sheet on the sail pulls the tack of the sail out from the middle of the sail.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Found this on Youtube.
    Click Here
    Embedding this video in the post has been disabled so I cannot embed it here.
    It makes it clearer that there is some sort of cord to the tack that pulls the sail to the rope but it seems to wind very unevenly, is never seen winding around itself to secure with the sail, probably because this would involve wrapping this extra cord. We wrap our sails well to secure them in the wound position - we even leave the screecher up as the norm. Nor am I clear on how the sail is actually wound.

    I really would like someone to explain how this system works and the advantages and disadvantages over top down systems. With some having 45 years experience in these matters this should present no problems
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    OK found another video
    BORKED
    You have to go forward to release the anti-torsion line!!!
    The sail is not totally free on the three sides of the sail. There is an extra connection to the anti-torsion line making matters more complex. Plus the winding quality is not good at all.

    You also need to go forward to release the tension on the anti-torsion line before furling in.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I am ore than interested in learning why the Facnor system is superior to the top down reefing systems of other manufacturers and look forward to the discussion on the subject.
    Who said it was?

    I have a mostly Facnor, removable, continuous line furling system that I use with my code 0. I had no idea it was also called a "top down" furler until reading this discussion. It consists of Facnor's 7000 model wheel and 4500 model upper swivel. I did not use Facnor's torsion luff rope nor 2:1 upper block because they were way too expensive. Facnor is very proud of their products. My sailmaker (Ullman) recommended a cheaper rope and also recommended Harken's version of a 2:1 block to save some money. I probably could have used the model 4500 wheel based on the sail area of my 0, but chose the 7000 due to it's larger diameter which would have more mechanical advantage when furling. I don't use any of Paul's additions on the furling line - I do it all by hand just using the continuous line coming right off the wheel with no other blocks or gadgets. I do have to exit the cockpit and go forward some (on my Park Avenue-wide side deck ) to get to the furling line where I tie it off to a mid-ship cleat when not in use. A second person is essential on the sheet when furling, although I've unfurled my sail singlehanded - I loop the continuous line over the dagger board, using it as a turning block.

    I have to admit I was a bit confused by the term "top down" when I first saw this discussion. I had never heard it before and wondered what I had missed. Apparently nothing. Unbeknownst to me, I've had a "top down" system all along and I thought it was just a removable, continuous line furling rig.

    Back to Paul's question: I've had this system for 4 years and it works well for me. Whether it's better than another mfg I can't say - I've never used another. I already noted that the "anti-rotation" feature Paul describes is fabulous. Wish I had something similar when furling in higher wind speeds - frequently in higher wind speeds my furler allows the sail to unwind when partially furled despite all the friction I can put on the wheel with the furling line and the extra mechanical advantage the larger wheel diameter gives me. Doing it again I'd certainly weigh the pros and cons of this feature.

    Another thing I'd do - and recommend to anyone starting from scratch - save some money by using Wichard's MX Halyard Shackle instead of a 2:1 block for the halyard. Examples here >> http://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/ca...-Shackles.html By the way, you really have to have a 2:1 halyard to get enough luff tension on these sails (not applicable to loose luff sails like an asym spi).

    Inasmuch as I don't have a loose luff headsail like an asym spinnaker that can be furled with one of these (I'm a devotee to sym spis on cats) I'd never use my furler as Paul does on another sail.

    Hope this helps.

    2 Hulls Dave

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    That was very interesting Dave.

    I also have no experience of the Facnor and I am awaiting the response sop I can understand it better. SAt the moment I only see negatives in it compared to the top down systems.

    The lock on the Karver drum is important so the combination of that drum with the Spinex Profurl system seems to be the optimum solution.... albeit arrived at by accident
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I also have no experience of the Facnor and I am awaiting the response sop I can understand it better. SAt the moment I only see negatives in it compared to the top down systems.
    OK, maybe I'm still missing something - what does my mostly Facnor, removable, continuous line furling system lack that a "top down" system has (for tight luff applications)? Are they not the same? Or did you mean other top down systems?

    Regardless, what negatives do you see in the Facnor system other than no anti-rotation feature we've already discussed - and possibly my bet that Facnor is more expensive?

    And again, who argued Facnor was better?

    2 Hulls Dave

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Dave, you seem to have missed post 21 which stated:-
    The third and most important is the fact that top down furling does not work as well as the Facnor Mid Luff Furling system....

    http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/as...rs/default.asp

    Please note that the boat in the video is sailing in a good breeze, gybes and Furls with no issues.....a KISS product if ever there was one, it can also be used on either a Screacher/Code O sail and then used on an A-Kite, Gennaker, Cruising Spinnaker...or what ever you want to call it.
    I have no association with Facnor just hate to see more people get sucked in to the Top Down system........Good Luck
    Cheers
    Oceanpearl
    I am reacting to that post.

    If your Facnor has a swivel then fine it can be used for top down furling .... I am not disagreeing with you but I am with the above post.

    I would argue that the Facnor with cord from the anti-torsion rope to the sail and the need to constantly tension and relax the anti-torsion rope is not as good as the standard top down furlers....... I still await answers on the claim this system is superior.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Paul - I did miss that post - because it doesn't show up for me! Post 21 as I can see is the "papparazzi" post from NautiBits. Can't explain that!

    Now that I can see the quote you are referring to, I can see this all regards using a continuous line furler on a loose luff sail like a typical asym spi - which requires some extra contraption to link the loose luff to a tight torsion rope to get the roll started. Add to the discussion the various and inconsistent uses of terminology like gennaker and screecher - which some folks use to also describe loose luff sails - causes more confusion.

    Since I don't use my top down, removable, continuous line furler system on a loose luff sail, I'll stay out of the way. I'll just add more terminology confusion by noting that a Code 0 - always on a tight luff - is, technically, an asym spi....

    2 Hulls Dave

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    The post is after post 20 but does not have a number .... so may not be showing.
    It is from a new member Ocean Pearl and this is it:-
    Aside from some of the basic terminology issues, as a rigger and sailmaker for 45 years, I have to comment on 3 issues, the Torsional rope is on the luff not the leach, the Screacher halyard is twisting due to lack of distance between the attachment point and the Halyard sheave, or put an extension on the head of the halyard swivel so it goes higher up the rig.....before furling tension the screacher halyard to resist the twisting, you get a similar phenomenon with jib fullers if the sail is not far enough up the foil you get a halyard wrap same concept same fix.
    The third and most important is the fact that top down furling does not work as well as the Facnor Mid Luff Furling system....

    http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/as...rs/default.asp

    Please note that the boat in the video is sailing in a good breeze, gybes and Furls with no issues.....a KISS product if ever there was one, it can also be used on either a Screacher/Code O sail and then used on an A-Kite, Gennaker, Cruising Spinnaker...or what ever you want to call it.
    I have no association with Facnor just hate to see more people get sucked in to the Top Down system........Good Luck
    Cheers
    Oceanpearl
    That is what I have been responding to and it must be very confusing when it cannot be seen by others than admin!!!!
    It means many of my posts do not make sense.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    Paul - I did miss that post - because it doesn't show up for me! Post 21 as I can see is the "papparazzi" post from NautiBits. Can't explain that!
    2 Hulls Dave
    Its showing now, what happened was that it was Ocean Pearls first post and thus it had to be "Moderated" i.e. checked it wasn't spam, before it became viewable, Paul saw it because he is an administrator/moderator. My fault for being tardy in my duties. Sorry - won't happen again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    The post is after post 20 but does not have a number .... so may not be showing.
    It is from a new member Ocean Pearl and this is it:-

    That is what I have been responding to and it must be very confusing when it cannot be seen by others than admin!!!!
    It means many of my posts do not make sense.
    Fixed now Boss.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Thanks
    Thought I was going mad for a bit
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  20. #40

    Default Re: Top Down Furling Video

    Yes, it did look like you were arguing with yourself.....

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