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Thread: request for info tri vrs cat

  1. #1

    Default request for info tri vrs cat

    Could someone(s) please comment on the relative sailing merits of Tri versus cat. I know this is an apple and oranges type of question but none the less I am interested in the forums opinion on this matter.

    I would think that in general the tri would have less windage but that is not necessarily true. Do three hulls allow better windward performance? As a tri gets bigger and one alma doesn't lift out of the water, does that make the performance closer to that of a cruising cat? If we hold interior or usable space constant, how do the two designs compare?

    If anyone could direct me to an article that addresses these issues without requiring an advanced degree in hydrodynamics that too would be appreciated.

    regards
    Griz

  2. #2

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    I suspect you already know the answer to your questions.

    I would think that in general the tri would have less windage but that is not necessarily true.
    Correct. If it looks like it has high windage then it does. Horstmans are high and Dragonflys are low.

    Do three hulls allow better windward performance?
    Maybe. Daggerboards or centerboards in either boat type will affect this evaluation. An Outremer cat will probably outperform Piver or a Cross. A Searunner will point higher than a Lagoon.

    As a tri gets bigger and one alma doesn't lift out of the water, does that make the performance closer to that of a cruising cat?
    Maybe. Size doesn't really have anything to do with this, though. Many big tris can lift a hull and many small ones can't.


    If we hold interior or usable space constant, how do the two designs compare?
    First you seperate the high performance tris from the cruisers. Designs like Corsair and Condor might only have about a third as much room as a cruising cat and about 50% of a mono of comparable length. Searunners, Pivers, Cross and the like are closer to 2/3 of the space because of the wingdecks. You do get good storage in the amas, though. Once they get really big then you can have usable living space in the amas. Cats have the advantage of seperate cabins in the hulls for privacy.
    Last edited by Sand crab; 17th December 2013 at 06:51 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Good multi books:

    http://www.aeroyacht.com/category/pu...-and-articles/
    Also good articles on that site. You can buy this book today at Barnes and Noble. I did.

    http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/for_sale/books/

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Cruis.../dp/0972146148

    Also good articles and vids on here.
    http://www.multihullcompany.com/#

  4. #4

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Here is an interesting read on the subject.

    http://www.fram.nl/faq/trimaran/trimaran.htm

  5. #5

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Thank you for the information. It will take me a while to read all the links and check out the book.

    I don't think I was clear with the original post. If one was to compare holding say general living space as the condition. So for example if we stipulate four cabins, four heads, 200 sq ft of salon space, 200 sq feet of under Bimini space. There are dozens of cats with those general characteristics if we could find a tri with those general numbers how would they compare.

    Again thanks for your thoughts.

    Griz

  6. #6

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizwald View Post
    Thank you for the information. It will take me a while to read all the links and check out the book.

    I don't think I was clear with the original post. If one was to compare holding say general living space as the condition. So for example if we stipulate four cabins, four heads, 200 sq ft of salon space, 200 sq feet of under Bimini space. There are dozens of cats with those general characteristics if we could find a tri with those general numbers how would they compare.

    Again thanks for your thoughts.

    Griz
    Griz,

    Not exactly certain of the square feet area of the salon, gallery, staterooms and cockpit but the NEEL 50 seems to have a considerable amount of space for a cruising trimaran. Check out the NEEL website.

  7. #7

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizwald View Post
    If one was to compare holding say general living space as the condition. So for example if we stipulate four cabins, four heads, 200 sq ft of salon space, 200 sq feet of under Bimini space. There are dozens of cats with those general characteristics if we could find a tri with those general numbers how would they compare.
    Griz
    4 real actual cabins and not wingdeck cubbyholes are very rare in a tri. 4 heads is even rarer. I've never seen it but they might be in one of those really big ones doing charters in the Carib. That 65' might have it. There is just not the room in the main hull. This one comes close.
    http://www.boattrader.com/listing/19...star-102029730
    Your other requirement for a big bimini space will also be hard to fill in normal sized boats. Many tris will just have a mono sized cockpit which may or may not be under a bimini and will be way less than 200 sq. ft. That Horstman doesn't have one at all. The Neel 50s skimpy bimini was one of the negatives noted by the magazines.
    I think you want a cat.

  8. #8

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Dabbler, are affiliated with Neel?

  9. #9

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
    Dabbler, are affiliated with Neel?

    Unfortunately no. I am here in the middle of a Wisconsin winter wishing my MegaMillions ticket had the winning numbers.

    I know it seems that I am slightly partial to the NEEL line of trimarans but that is primarily due to the fact that I owned a Corsair 24MkII for several years and loved that boat. Lost her in a divorce. Looking to retire in a few years to a "live aboard" situation and after looking at catamarans for the past year, the NEEL 45 seems to meet all of my requirements to date.

    Thanks for asking.

  10. #10

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    OK, thanx Dabbler.
    Back to the thread. The other big bucks and major hassle issue is the really large beam which will require a really big travelift or a proper railway for haulout. The size of these big tris will also be a problem for many marinas but it's nothing that deep pockets can't cure. Here's another that is close to your requirements.
    http://www.multihullcompany.com/Trim..._Ketch/Bananas

  11. #11

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Thanks everyone.
    Unless I win the lottery, I agree that I am probably destined for a cat. Given that I don't buy lottery tickets, a cat seems very likely.

    I wasn't actually looking to compare a specific boat with any other specific boat. I have been told that tri's sail better than cats and I have always contended that the individual who made that statement was not making a fair comparison because the cat had so much more living space. So if we were to compare boats with similar living space how would they compare.

    As dabbler points out the Neel's are nice but I have never seen one in the flesh. Looking at the website it appears that one has to get a substantially longer boat before the living areas start to approximate.

    Having said that, one not so secret desire that I have for a boat, is to be able to lie in my bed and look out over the water. It seems a shame to be so close to a million dollar ocean view and not be able to enjoy it. In this regard it appears the Neel's might work. Does anyone know of any other boat where one can lie in bed and look at the view? The bigger privilege owners version has that great huge forward cabin but there isn't much that could be called a viable window with a view.

    Before anyone suggests sleeping in the salon or in a hammock under the boom, I have done both, but there are drawbacks.

    Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

    Griz

  12. #12

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Lots of cats have hatches in the side of the hulls at bed level. A Privilege 435 is just one.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Annapolis
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Hello all,
    Long time member first time poster. I have spent time on mono hulls and like the motion, minus the lean. I also hate the fact you need to put your dinghy on the deck when cruising unless you are fortunate enough to have a 70 footer with a a garage in back. That seems like a huge PITA to me to deal with.
    Cats are hands down much better in terms of living volume, and they have davits for the dinghy!! what a concept! The problem is I never really liked the snappiness of the motion. My first offshore experience was bringing an FP Athena up from Florida. Initial thoughts were that it was huge, however, 24 hours later, out near the Gulf Stream changed that. My abs had a serious workout that trip, and most of our searing was using the autopilot. Actually sailing the boat seemed very detached to me ( bus driving without the challenge of avoiding pedestrians

    Anyway, we have had our eyes on a cat for the last 5 years at least since space trumps all for the family. My wife and I never could commit to one of them especially when thinking about how much they cost, how many used ones are for sale, and the fact that we both work.... a lot.

    There is this trade off between niceties looks and speed. Generally looks and speed go together in my eye, but those two tend to veer away from speed. ( btw speed is fun but I also think of it as safer since you can avoid getting caught in weather if you are prudent.... But that is another thread entirely.)

    I don't have much experience on trimarans, but everything I read says they are fun to sail, faster than most everything else but TINY accommodations...... Until the Neel popped up in Annapolis for the 2012 boat show.

    Initial thoughts there: goofy goofy... Then we got on it... Roughly a year later we bought one.

    Some things were meant to be. Some may say impulse buy, but I figure 7 years of research makes this purchase well thought out.

  14. #14

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    You bought the Neel? Which one?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Annapolis
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
    You bought the Neel? Which one?
    We bought the Neel 45. It is currently on its way to the Miami boat show.

  16. #16

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Congratulations. It would be great if you started your own thread and told us all about it. Don't forget the pics, lots and lots of pics.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Annapolis
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Will do,
    I have to say, I investigated the boat, and the builder, but reading all the alpha 42 hub bub makes me want to get on board and measure the rudder shafts!

    We have been tracking the delivery and she has been doing over 200 miles per day. Last report she was roughly 1000 miles from miami

  18. #18

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    I think you are OK. Eric Bruneel has adequate experience in the boat building department.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Annapolis
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    As far as pictures, the new neel website has a very nice 3D tour of the boat with the same layout as ours.

    Back to the thread... Does anyone have any opinions on the sailing feel of a trimaran vs a cat? Especially third generation tris with significant buoyancy in the amas?

  20. #20

    Default Re: request for info tri vrs cat

    Want2Hulls,

    I am planning to be at the Miami Boat Show from Saturday thru Monday and will be spending some time looking over your new NEEL 45. I am in the market for one as well. I am looking forward to meeting you.

    I owned a Corsair 24MKII folding-trimaran for several years on Lake Michigan and loved every minute I was sailing. I lost it in a divorce but I am planning to get back to full time sailing this summer and eventually on my own NEEL 45.

    I had a discussion with Gregor Tarjan regarding the NEEL 45 and he indicated that the NEEL 45 has a greater living area than his Alpha 42 and was recently in France sailing the last 45 of 2013. That may have been your NEEL 45.

    BTW, you may have to change your user name to "have3hulls". LOL

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