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Thread: The UK and Free Speech

  1. #1
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    Default The UK and Free Speech

    A weeks or so back a British politician running in the recent EU elections decided to talk about the views of Winston Churchill on Islam. These views were published in 1902. Anyway in quoting these, in his own area where he was running to be the MEP someone in the crowd phoned the police and he was arrested!!!! At first on racial grounds but when they realised that Islam is not a race but a religion covering many races he was re-arrested for a religious offence. So in quoting the exact words of one of our greatest leaders this man is now facing a two year jail sentence because the words caused offence!!!!!

    In the same country, the UK, when people were honouring their war dead a group of Muslim burnt poppies and had signs indicating our soldiers should burn in hell .... they were not arrested.

    I think that neither should have been arrested. I believe in free speech and if that offends someone then so be it. It is rude and not very nice to go out to offend someone........ but if someone threatens you with their actions and what they believe in then its fair enough to be able to point out how bad their threats are and hence offend them.

    I have no time for any form of racism. I have lived in Saudi Arabia and some African countries. I have no time for violence and believe in free speech. Yet I now feel that my own country, the country of my birth is under threat. There is a very violent reaction to doing things such as publishing a certain cartoon. People dies as a result and there is no an accepted fear about the press not stepping over the line. When someone is deemed to have committed an offence our politicians do not support our values of free speech and democracy.... no they support the people who use violent threats..... outs all a one way traffic./

    In the UK we do not even live under the same laws. There are over 80 Sharia courts supported by the government. In these courts, as just one example, women are treated as very much second class citizens.

    I believe the UK should have a secular government and anyone should be free to practice any religion. I would strongly support that but the religion has to live within the confines of modern western standards hence the death penalty for those leaving it, for homo***uals, for adultery, for blasphemy etc would not be tolerated. The religion has to practice and preach things within the law.

    Some members of my family fought and lost their lives in two world wars. They wanted a free IUK but our politicians ruined the country. They have given away hard won freedoms.

    Light blue touch paper and retire ......
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    I am very familiar with Sam Harris but find this UK comedian even more interesting
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7dhNYNxkJo
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    In my opinion, not funny and definitely not a comedian.

    Mike
    Nothing works on an old boat, except the skipper.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    I agree, Mike. I think there will be little gained by responding to the situation with simple vitriole. The politics of hate don't work and never have. You simply inflame what is clearly a ludicrous situation and incite further hatred and violence.

    That's why I much prefer Sam Harris's measured and intelligently reasoned response.

    Karen


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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    This is a world wide thing.
    This humanistic thing that you can not offend some groups because you think different.
    I hear the same frustrating comments from Americans, Mexicans and being a Brazilian I can make chorus with them.
    In Brazil a 16 year old person can vote and if they shoot to death a person they can't be persecuted because they are "children" but if a cop shoot a robber that is shoting at him and kills that robber, he, the cop, will be persecuted for murder....
    It seams the world is going to a brainless phase....
    Ricardo

    For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless ... Ecclesiastes 2:21

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by RACarvalho View Post
    This is a world wide thing.
    This humanistic thing that you can not offend some groups because you think different.
    Yes, it's long over due that we change the rules. The Law of Not Taking Offence should be introduced but quick. The on-going Political Correctness fever that has contaminated and made mockery of Political and Social common sense must be cured and soon. It has developed to become both ludicrous and dangerous.

    It seams the world is going to a brainless phase....
    Alas the world is always going through a brainless phase - it's just the nature of the phases that change. Man is - and always has been - a very clever idiot.

    Karen


  7. #7

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    So can someone out there tell me, whats better
    Monos or multis.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by victor View Post
    So can someone out there tell me, whats better
    Monos or multis.
    Hello Victor, any news on the 18 mpg power cat yet?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Mike
    Pat Condell is a comedian but not trying to be funny in his videos.
    He is reacting to a very bad situation where we now have two legal systems in the UK one of which is based on a 1400 year old desert culture that has rules that breach all sorts of human rights. Yet in the most dedicated country to that Sharia law, Saudi Arabia, no other religions or laws are tolerated at all.

    It is plain wrong to have a western government allow such laws to be practiced in its own country - it should be one law for all residents.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    This is a world wide thing.
    This humanistic thing that you can not offend some groups because you think different.
    Spot on and as soon as offence because a de facto crime bang goes all development and growth. Being able to challenge any ideas is fundamental to the growth of a society.
    I never knew before now that the PC thing on shooting had arrived in Brazil. I always thought Brazil had more sense than to follow that path.

    In the UK hand guns are totally banned. We even closed down the Olympic shooting team but you can buy a handgun off the street for between 50 and 100 pounds. Yet we do have a much lower rate of shooting crime than say the USA.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  11. #11

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Does anyone here know anything about multihulls?

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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Mike
    Do you find this more acceptable?
    Its a wake up call to the USA.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Yes I am sure some of us know about multihulls but maybe not just about multihulls Chris.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Paul Weston the politician arrested for quoting Winston Churchill has had the charges against him dropped. The pity is that he was arrested at all.

    This is what Chruchill wrote:-
    "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
    Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
    in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
    countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
    of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the
    Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
    refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan
    law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as
    a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the
    faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.


    Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion
    paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde
    force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant
    and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising
    fearless warriors at every step, and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the
    strong arms of science, the science against which it (Islam) has vainly struggled,
    the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”

    Safe Sailing
    Paul
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    Paul Weston the politician arrested for quoting Winston Churchill has haxd the charges against him dropped. The pity is that he was arrested at all.
    Yay! And in a way, be grateful that he was arrested. For the absurdity of his arrest gives a very public taster of the dangers of allowing religious dogma to dictate the way the law is interpreted.

    And yes, the second link you give, Paul, is better. Watertight logic and calm reasoning make for much better ammunition. Much though I agree with Richard Dawkins, for example, sometimes his approach is as aggressive and fundamentalist as those he is raging against - which tends to piss people off, even those who can see the sense in what he's saying.

    This topic clearly isn't to the liking of some here - but, hey, this is the members' bar and man does not live by multihull alone. AND ... it is a topic, like it or not, that will come to affect the society you live in, if political correctness continues to make a mockery of commonsense and the right to live peacefully, whatever your views.

    Karen


  16. #16
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    When an ideology threatens your whole society and a country is threatened to be taken back 1400 years to a very restrictive desert culture then people like Dawkins have to spell it out.

    Without any more immigration the UK is set to become a majority Muslim country and that means sharia law. I do not want that for my children and grandchildren. The birth rate of the indigenous population is about 20% that of the rapidly grown Muslim society.

    So the message has to be got out there and Dawkins with others does a great job. I would dearly love to know just what Dawkins or Pat Condell says that offends .......

    Much though I agree with Richard Dawkins, for example, sometimes his approach is as aggressive and fundamentalist as those he is raging against - which tends to piss people off, even those who can see the sense in what he's saying.
    No... totally disagree with your description of his approach. His approach is simple logic and in no way fundamentalist. He is totally open minded and will change his opinions based on new evidence. Nothing he says is dogma.

    The only people he pisses off is those that do not wish to see the evidence and wish to stay in their deluded world. They have a right to do that, a right I support but if they wish to criticise him then let them explain exactly what he says that is wrong.

    On this thread so far, not one single point I have made about the issues has been discussed. Rather the approach has been discussed.

    This is the bar and here anything can be discussed ... however on this subject there is so far silence..... that is part of the problem that I am trying to highlight.

    I have no objection to Muslims, I only strongly object to their religion which threatens my freedom of speech and way of life. To have Prime Ministers and Presidents supporting those who threaten free speech and try to jail those who object is my biggest objection.

    This topic clearly isn't to the liking of some here
    Then I wish they would explain whey they do not like it.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    For the record:-
    When I worked in Saudi Arabia the Saudi's were very friendly to me. I was guest of honour at many a desert feast. At that time in 1967 and 1968/9 there were 5000 Princes in the country. There are many more now. One thing I liked about the desert culture was the genuine welcome they gave to me.

    The day I arrived there were 17 beheadings in Riyadh and yes they ran a tight ship. There was little crime as such. I did have some 'run ins' with the religious police who tried to stop me drinking my banana drink at a street table in prayer time but apart from that and being caught in a riot in the 1967 Arab/Israel war there was no real problems.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I would dearly love to know just what Dawkins or Pat Condell says that offends .......
    Dawkins has the right to express his views and that is ok.
    It is also understandable that someone that only looks at the matter part of the human existence and ignore the spiritual part of it will have a different and sometimes contrary stand point.

    What offends is the insistence in to paint those that have a spiritual belief as "less evoluted" or "less educated" or "ignorant" etc, AND to paint all religions as the same.

    That being said, is interesting that on the link above the comentator make refference to the US constitution as a cornerstone of the world liberties but completelly ignores the world view of those that wrote it, a worldview heavily influenced by the protestant beliefs.

    A belief that freedom is a gift of GOD and we should not try to take from the people what GOD has given to them....
    Ricardo

    For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless ... Ecclesiastes 2:21

  19. #19
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    When an ideology threatens your whole society and a country is threatened to be taken back 1400 years to a very restrictive desert culture then people like Dawkins have to spell it out.
    Yes, I agree. Hope I have not implied anything other. But ...

    So the message has to be got out there and Dawkins with others does a great job. I would dearly love to know just what Dawkins or Pat Condell says that offends .......
    It is not the factual content of what is said that offends - far from it; but it is the manner in which they say it, sometimes that can weaken their very reasoned way of thinking. And that's a huge pity.

    I know many other atheists and secularists who find him irritating - while agreeing in principle with his reasoning. And remember, it is not us he needs to convert or persuade! If he is to persuade others who do not yet understand the dangers of allowing religious dogma the full weight of the law, he must convey his message calmly - without vitriole and the theatrical eye-rolling sarcasm of the righteous polemicist. He did a TV series on the very subject, round about the time of his "The God of Delusion" book. And was clearly so vexed and frustrated by the nonsense spouted by some of the religious zealots he interviewed, he was incandescent with bristling rage. I had every sympathy with him - but it works against him and what he's trying to achieve, to a certain degree.

    No... totally disagree with your description of his approach. His approach is simple logic and in no way fundamentalist. He is totally open minded and will change his opinions based on new evidence. Nothing he says is dogma.
    I have not accused him of dogma. Honest guv.

    The only people he pisses off is those that do not wish to see the evidence and wish to stay in their deluded world. They have a right to do that, a right I support but if they wish to criticise him then let them explain exactly what he says that is wrong.
    No - as stated above, some dyed-in-the-wool atheists get pissed off with the manner of his polemics.

    On this thread so far, not one single point I have made about the issues has been discussed. Rather the approach has been discussed.
    Well, there can be a number of reasons for that:

    1. Judging by the few -please-let's-change-the-subject remarks, some aren't the slightest bit interested in discussing it. And that's their prerogative.

    2. Some avoid any and all discussions on religion feeling they only cause friction/are pointless since nobody ever changes their opinion anyway as a result / scared to discuss Islam and the dangers thereof (which in itself proves we have to be very, very worried about it!) or lastly - as in my case - because they happen to agree with everything you posted!

    This is the bar and here anything can be discussed ... however on this subject there is so far silence..... that is part of the problem that I am trying to highlight.
    See above - apathy, disinterest, avoidance of conflict, dislike of religious discussion, fed-up already with too much depressing news coverage on the matter already. Any or all of those. Who knows. But I agree with you - apathy on the subject is not going to make it any better or make it go away. And there may well come a time not too far off when you can't ignore it any longer.

    I have no objection to Muslims, I only strongly object to their religion which threatens my freedom of speech and way of life
    As the very popular, sadly late, Irish comedian, Dave Allen used to say:
    "May your God go with you."
    However, what he should or could have added is,
    "but that does not give you the right to inflict your God on anyone else."
    Personally, I couldn't give a damn if you believe in pixies and goblins tap-dancing on pretty little toadstools at the bottom of your garden - providing it keeps you happy and gets you through the night. But insist that I believe in them too - or anyone else for that matter - and worse, make that insistence legal, then we're all heading to hell in a handcart.

    To have Prime Ministers and Presidents supporting those who threaten free speech and try to jail those who object is my biggest objection.
    Amen. I'll drink to that too.

    Karen
    Last edited by Karen; 12th June 2014 at 06:55 PM.


  20. #20

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    I am the opposite of politically correct. I make fun of everything including me.

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