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Thread: The UK and Free Speech

  1. #21
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
    I am the opposite of politically correct. I make fun of everything including me.
    Well bring it on, Bob! It sure beats taking offence because someone criticised your religion! In fact, the very effective, very necessary antidote to PC is to cultivate the lost art of Not Taking Offence.

    K


  2. #22

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Now I am offended that you think I would take offence.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Karen
    Personally, I couldn't give a damn if you believe in pixies and goblins tap-dancing on pretty little toadstools at the bottom of your garden - providing it keeps you happy and gets you through the night. But insist that I believe in them too - or anyone else for that matter - and worse, make that insistence legal, then we're all heading to hell in a handcart.
    That is my whole point in a nutshell.

    As regards Dawkins .... if it was not for Hitch, Dawkins and Sam harris there rurally would be very few saying anything on the subject.

    RACarvalho
    First of all thank you for answering the points.

    Dawkins has the right to express his views and that is ok.
    It is also understandable that someone that only looks at the matter part of the human existence and ignore the spiritual part of it will have a different and sometimes contrary stand point.
    Agree 100% with that. I think Dawkins and Co would point out that there is only evidence against there being a spiritual part and none for it but yes - those who have a spiritual part would have a contrary standpoint so we agree.

    What offends is the insistence in to paint those that have a spiritual belief as "less evoluted" or "less educated" or "ignorant" etc, AND to paint all religions as the same.
    Dawkins and the others mentioned without any doubt at ll do not paint all religions the same. They single out Islam as way past the others for booing a threat to free speech etc. In fact Dawkins calls christianity "relatively benign". He every goes to church at christmas to enjoy the carols and thinks the bible should be taught in schools as part of literature. So you are simply incorrect if you think that. Nor would I be worried about the UK and free speech if it was not for Islam. Christianity had eve loved from when people like Queen Mary burnt people at tyne stake with a spike through their tongue to stop them speaking simply because they were found with an English translation of the bible.

    Yes I think its absurd that our new Prince will one day head the established church in the Uk regardless of what he beliefs but I do not get prosecuted for condemning that. If I burnt a bible, something I would not do because it would be offensive for no purpose, but if I did nothing would happen. If I burnt a Koran the world and death threats would defend on me. Again I would not do that because its just offensive without any purpose. My point is that it is only Islam which threatens free speech with violence.

    That being said, is interesting that on the link above the comentator make refference to the US constitution as a cornerstone of the world liberties but completelly ignores the world view of those that wrote it, a worldview heavily influenced by the protestant beliefs.
    The USA constitution was written to form a totally secular state and separate religion from the state. That is what I would like in the UK. The swearing in of a president never mentions god until well into the last century when the word god crept in. Its a great document. It is based on free speech and the right of anyone to follow what religion they wish... or none. It was not based on religion or a belief in god. In fact slavery is well supported in the bible and only instructions are given on how to treat salves not a word against having slaves.

    Might I also add that for most of the history of mankind religion was the only gas me in town to explain the world around us. Its really only over the last few hundred years that we have been able to explain things better that religion has had to take a back seat and retreat on subject after subject.

    A belief that freedom is a gift of GOD and we should not try to take from the people what GOD has given to them...
    I cannot agree it was the gift of god ... in fact religion has suppressed freedom until very recently. However I think we can both agree nobody should take freedom of speech away from anyone but that is happening and is the main subject of this thread.

    Newspapers today the western world over shy away from ever priming a cartoon of Mohamed .... even when it was front page news. The reason is that they fear the violent backlash. There is a sense of fear in even discussing the subject.

    It seems that everyone agrees on freedom of speech and that it was wrong to arrest the man in the UK for quoting Winston Churchill. However, with the exception of Karen, nobody seems too concerned about the threat I have outlines. Some wish to make it a taboo subject others take it as an attack on their beliefs which it is not.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  4. #24

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post

    It seems that everyone agrees on freedom of speech and that it was wrong to arrest the man in the UK for quo:-) -ting Winston Churchill. However, with the exception of Karen, nobody seems too concerned about the threat I have outlines. Some wish to make it a taboo subject others take it as an attack on their beliefs which it is not.
    Oh yes, there are lots that agree with you and regard freedom of speech to be essential to modern civilisation. Unfortunately, fundementalism and violence results from failure of ones interlect in putting forward reasoned arguments and is the last resort against an inevitable loss of power and control.

    The fact that millions of people have a better understanding of life and the universe, no longer have any belief in god and do not suffer hell and damnation severely undermines the the very princibles of religion and the power it once held.

    Likewise the current crop of politicians was summed up by a pacific islander referring to their premier `before he was elected he was for the people after he was elected he is for himself`. Hopefully a true statesman will emerge soon.

    So you are doing great by prompting open discussion even on an unrelated specialist forum shows just how important this is.

  5. #25

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    I hinted my disapproval of the thread and there have been strong hints in return that I am either over-sensitive, or intolerant of debate or offended by the subject matter itself. Hopefully those comments were directed at other members too, but anyway..

    Ironically, I agree with almost all the sentiments expressed. By chance I am a 'card-carrying atheist' (rather than pathetically lapsed Christian) and I spend a fair amount of time relaxing with youtube repeats of Hitchens and Dawkins in debate. I also sometimes can't resist the temptation to follow the comments which accompany such online publications and give them my own 'thumbs-up' from time to time.

    But I hear you say, Mr Forum admin, "that's too passive, like watching TV, I want to bring this out into the open.." Well, I would reply, join your local society, attend meetings, march with placards. Here's my outlet
    http://humanist.org.sg/. I'm sure there's one near your home too. Then you can discuss and debate and decide how to change the World.

    My grouse is that I visit Multihulls to discuss boats, and I respect the opinions of other members about boats. I'm not interested in your opinion about religion, or politics, or climate change for that matter. If I want to listen to opinionated people, I don't need to go further than the BBC website and follow readers' contributions there, until they inevitably degenerate into unseemly vitriol.

    Ahh, you say, "there's a place for everything, and we have a 'member's bar' for this sort of thing". Of course, I can't argue with that. You created the site with a ready-made soap-box. So, there's no breach of forum etiquette, but I find it sad. We (can I think of it as a member's club, or is it actually a proprietary club..), we the members need to encourage other new members who are either knowledgeable about multihulls or keen to meet those who are. Visitors will not be impressed, I suggest, if they scroll through the member's bar. They will conclude that somehow you lost your way..

    My next door neighbor in the marina here is an elegant Hanse 52 (I think) called "En Dian" and for those who don't speak Chinese the name is repeated in brackets on the transom in English as (Grace of God). The owners are a lovely couple who openly admit their pastor will disapprove if they miss church on Sunday because they went sailing. Am I a wimp for smiling politely and nodding? You know you would all (I hope) do the same, because being civil is something instinctive, not something we are taught in Church.. Hitch, Dawkins et al (the 4 horsemen) debated this at length and admitted they could not agree on how to argue passionately without becoming intolerant.

    That is a wider debate, and I must resist the temptation. I repeat that I think it is a shame, and it will be damaging to your baby, Mr Forum Admin, if you allow the soap box to thrive while multihull owners go elsewhere for technical advice.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    You make an interesting point.

    The bar is a soapbox for anyone on any subject ... it is just that, a bit like what we in the UK call a Pub.

    I censor nobody on any subject and if my discussions in the bar upset prospective members so be it.

    I cannot understand the link between joining with others to share info on multihulls and not doing that because of one thread in the member's bar.

    I have some very devout christian friends and we laugh at the differences between us. In fact one told me that the magician Dynamo was working for the devil because he was able to walk on water etc. I researched the tricks and sent her the youtube videos of how they were done only to find that a week later she was back with prove that he was working with the devil because nothing else could explain his latest trick!! The youtube video explaining that was was done by a 9 year old!!

    However I have not started this thread to have a go at religion. I started the thread because the restriction of free speech in the western world is a real issue. I see little point in discussing religion as such. Yes I have strong views on teaching kids that the earth is 4000 years old etc but that is not the purpose of this thread.

    The entire base of this forum is free speech. It was started because that was not available on the Cruising Forum.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  7. #27

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    For my part, I think ChrisSG has made some good points, and some of the Members' Bar posts undermine any credibility those post'ers may have had with respect to any other subject

  8. #28
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by chris in SG View Post
    I hinted my disapproval of the thread and there have been strong hints in return that I am either over-sensitive, or intolerant of debate or offended by the subject matter itself. Hopefully those comments were directed at other members too, but anyway..
    No hinting from me. Nobody, in my view, has to comment on any thread. It would be utterly unreasonable to expect that. I was merely conjecturing some of the reasons, for folk not commenting on this particular topic. As I said, it's your prerogative to respond or not according to your wishes.

    The trouble with internet discussions is always the same: folk only have words on a screen to read. And the meaning behind those words can easily be misconstrued. Or read with an unfortunate slant, which was not intended by the poster. With no body-language, no facial expressions, and being absent of the quick and easy 'did you mean this?, or do you mean that? banter that normal face-to-face conversation allows - it's too easy to misunderstand or read personal criticism into things.

    Karen


  9. #29
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
    [...] and some of the Members' Bar posts undermine any credibility those post'ers may have had with respect to any other subject
    How so, tamicatana? And are you referring to this particular thread, in the Members' Bar or several of the other threads? You have me truly puzzled.

    If you are referring to the former - to this, The UK and Free Speech thread - well, I know many other sailors and cruisers and marine technicians here in the Caribbean, some religious, some atheist. But try as I might, I cannot find any correlation whatsoever between their religious beliefs or lack of beliefs - and their sailing or boat-fixing knowledge! Nor, must I add, to their likeability or qualities as a person.

    Somehow, I doubt you can mean that, then ... ?

    Karen


  10. #30
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    +1 Karen.

    I cannot see the correlation either and would like to se it spelt out.
    I am failing to see how a post on freedom of speech and the restrictions that Islam places on it ..... (simple facts by the way not opinions) ..... can lead to the post you a post like that of tamicatana. I would like to see an explanation of what is meant by it.

    Even a Muslim must agree with me that their religion does restrict free speech so it should not even controversial. If my posts on this free speech subject offend some then please spell it out on what basis there is an offence. If their is offence it almost proves my point.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  11. #31

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Spurious opinions and beliefs are indicative of a lack of knowledge and thought process, and bring any assertions by those who carry such opinions and beliefs into doubt

  12. #32
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
    Spurious opinions and beliefs are indicative of a lack of knowledge and thought process, and bring any assertions by those who carry such opinions and beliefs into doubt
    So whose opinions are spurious in your view?

    Spurious meaning they don't coincide with your opinions?

    So by saying that free speech is important and should not be stifled by those who want their religion to be protected from criticism by the law, one is casting a spurious opinion?

    Karen


  13. #33
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    My view is simple- Muslims are a dire threat to Western Civilization. They should not be allowed into western countries and if found -should be killed on site. This will come.

  14. #34

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    +1to George. It's inevitable there will be a worldwide confrontation. Anyone else remember Enoch and his rivers of blood speech? The rivers are currently mostly in the Middle East, but they are spreading.
    If an Englishman cannot quote Churchill without getting into strife: there is a problem. I'm sure that Shakespeare was not pc regarding Jews, should he be banned as well? The alternative to resisting this madness is to surrender to Islam now, because they will not rest until they dominate. Saying it is only the extremists that are the problem is shortsighted. The extremists are currently re-taking Iraq as I type this.

    Cheers john
    edit.
    As I read that back I realise I must come across as a nationalistic conservative. Never once voted that way. Just an Englishman that turned into an Australian and seeing the same thing coming here as well.
    Last edited by tater; 14th June 2014 at 02:28 AM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Nice try, but I'm not here to be baited. I said what I said. See ya.



    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    So whose opinions are spurious in your view?

    Spurious meaning they don't coincide with your opinions?

    So by saying that free speech is important and should not be stifled by those who want their religion to be protected from criticism by the law, one is casting a spurious opinion?

    Karen

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
    Nice try, but I'm not here to be baited. I said what I said. See ya.
    Then, without any clarification, your comment about others casting spurious opinions becomes highly spurious in itself, and pointless. Namaste!


  17. #37
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    tamicatana
    To ask you to make your criticism clear so we understand what you mean is not 'baiting you'. Your failure to explain IMHO makes the point you are trying to make pointless.

    The funny thing here is that I find I can have a reasoned debate with muslims that I talk to. These are of course what people refer to as 'moderate muslims'.

    They normal claim that Islam is a religion of peace. When is query this by asking some simple questions they alway answer honestly.
    I ask if they believe that the Koran is the word of god and the hadith is the teaching of Mohamed and that both are true? The answer is always Yes (Because for it not to be Yes they would be committing blasphemy and hence be libel for the death penalty).
    I then ask what the punishments are for leaving the religion, being a homo***ual, adultery, blasphemy, witchcraft etc. They always answer that the punishment is death.
    I then point out that Mohamed led 20 plus wars where the conquered men were given the choice between death or conversion to Islam. They agree he did that. I then point out that the women and children were enslaved. They agree.
    At this point they point out that Mohamed also wrote that to kill just one innocent is like killing all humanity at which point I point out that he wrote that early in his career when he was trying to make peace with the jews and christians and that he wrote that when there is a contradiction anything written later the Koran would be the verse to take not the earlier one. Plus that any muslim can cheat on deals and deceive the infidel because they do not count.
    I usually finish with asking them if they would kill their own child for leaving the faith and so far at least, after much consideration, they answer they would not. This puts them as an individual IMHO as having higher moral values than the religion they follow.
    All my conversations have always been peaceful and done without any anguish at all. Its seems harder to do that on a forum This makes Karen's point that you do not see the face or feel the tone when things are written down.

    I wish harm to no Muslim or anyone else. I am just very concerned about the Islamic take over of Europe. In a recent trail in Sweden where a man was arrested for linking the fact that Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe with the fact that all stranger on stranger rapes were done by Muslims..... the man produced the facts to show he was telling the truth and believe it or not the court ruled that truth was not a defence!!!!!! If the truth offended then you are still guilty!!!!!

    Without any more immigration the UK is set to become an islamic majority country.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  18. #38
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    remember Enoch and his rivers of blood speech?
    Enoch was never a racist. He was once booked into a hotel with a coloured college. The hotel refused to accept his college and Enoch caused such a fuss that they changed their minds and accepted his college.
    The rivers of blood speech has been much misquoted.

    In this thread of course, the issue is not race. Its the doctrine of a religion bent on world domination that has western politicians fixed in its headlights and grovelling as they throw away the rights of their populations to free speech.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  19. #39
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Quote Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
    My view is simple- Muslims are a dire threat to Western Civilization. They should not be allowed into western countries and if found -should be killed on site. This will come.
    No more killing, George, please. That's the very thing we should all be trying to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    I wish harm to no Muslim or anyone else.
    Exactly. No harm whatsoever, just the right to believe or not believe whatever we want in peace, without threat, or punishment, or murder on condition that our beliefs do not physically harm anyone else, and that we do not try by brutal means to force others to conform to our point of view.

    I am just very concerned about the Islamic take over of Europe. In a recent trail in Sweden where a man was arrested for linking the fact that Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe with the fact that all stranger on stranger rapes were done by Muslims..... the man produced the facts to show he was telling the truth and believe it or not the court ruled that truth was not a defence!!!!!! If the truth offended then you are still guilty!!!!!
    The decision of that court represents a terrifying madness. For if truth must kowtow to religious sensibilities then anarchy and violence will inevitably ensue.

    In this thread of course, the issue is not race. Its the doctrine of a religion bent on world domination that has western politicians fixed in its headlights and grovelling as they throw away the rights of their populations to free speech.
    Absolutely.

    Karen


  20. #40
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    Default Re: The UK and Free Speech

    Agree with every word Karen.
    The golden rule is simple.
    Do not do onto others what you would not wish to have done to yourself.

    All I am saying, as you are very aware, is that this subject of freedom of speech being restricted because of a 1400 year old desert culture needs open discussion and frankly anyone who disagrees with that is part of the problem because ignoring it will lead to a war.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

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