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Thread: An interesting UK statistic

  1. #21

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Thatcher fixed the UK
    Now re read the article, only all if it, and particularly the paragraphs in relation to the North East.
    Thatcher was the most divisive Brit since Cromwell. If you lived in a mining community or worked in a factory in, other than "down south" you got screwed. I go visiting most years and see so much despair, it is heart rending. Sure some people are doing well in the UK. However, they appear to be fewer and fewer each year. The 50's 60's and early 70's were boom time for working class Britain. Then the rich became worried, Hey the peasants are catching us up in terms of living standards, we can't have that". " "money doesn't grow on trees": no it resides with the 1% and they ain't letting go of any of it. Paul you may well have worked hard for what you have. I'm not doubting that. I know of a 64 year old lady that works 40 hours a week cleaning for wealthy people to keep a wooden hut in her possession. She is losing the battle to keep her shanty of a home. Is she any less deserving?

  2. #22
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Sorry but all that is dream world stuff.

    We used to have reliable energy sources in the UK ... it is following the stupid green agenda that has led ti the crisis. I crisis I and many other forecast. You argued against what I was saying on this subject in this very forum.

    So nope your policy as I understand it is this:-

    1. Follow a stupid green agenda that ignores the need for a 100% conventional back up to wind and solar and force extra costs on the poorest of energy consumers so that they pay for the solar installation on the middle class homes. Lock these high costs in for 20 years.

    2. When the system creaks because of all the green investment and no conventional investment then declare it unreliable and ask for millions of diesel generators to be installed across the country so that these highly inefficient back ups can be used when there is no more power!!!!!

    The result of all this is much more pollution and CO2 in the running and production of millions of generators.

    Big industries would have to build their own huge power plants - just for them!!! No shorting of energy .... total madness.

    Germany is building coal fired power stations because it has to.

    On the other hand, I don't think Gemarny decisions were bad, they are not having problems because of lack of investment, etc.
    Their problems are related to implementation of a new technology and there is a learning curve there.
    It's the cost to learn.
    BUT IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT THE WIND DOES NOT ALWAYS BLOW AND THE SUN DOES NOT ALWAYS SHINE......
    How can you possibly support such a stupid program by even praising it?????

    You are truly so wrong it takes my breath away!
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  3. #23
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Paul,
    So sad that in your cruzade against the wrong green politician thing you ignore all the rest.

    No, I don't agree with the POLITICAL green agenda it's all wrong but there is the reality that the per capta energy demand is growing exponentially and traditional ways to produce energy will not be enough to keep up if you don't wnat to burn any fuel and keep the enviroment clean.
    Therefore I do see a reason to develop new technologies that will produce energy with less impact to the enviroment.
    The biggest dam in Brazil is the size of some countries in Europe.
    All that area was flooded when the dam was contructed so even dam energy is not w/o enviroment costs.


    When I was a kid, all my toys had no need for electrical energy.
    All my kids toys today need electrical energy one way or the other.
    And the newer the toy more energy it needs.
    I used to write with pencil and paper - no electrical energy needed - today we have the I-energy guzzling - things . . .
    Apply that to a billions scale and you have it, just simple examples.

    As my example from Brazil, there is a limited amount of energy you can harvest from dams, beyond that what will you do?

    We are in a transition period.

    We will have coal / ethanol / diesel / natural gas, etc until a more appropriated solution is in place, but that solution will only be in place if technology developers have the incentive to work and Germany is a good incentive to them, not the green politician agenda.

    What will happen when someone puts together a good battery and solar panel reach 50% efficiency? there is a ton of work and money being spend on these right now.

    About the - once plenty of energy UK - I need to ask if everybody had Ipads, multiple computers, multiple televisions, multiple videogames, etc at home by that time....?


    So my point is that Politicians should get out of the way with the green stuff and let the market run as it should which, in my understanding, would lead the development of solar and wind technologies the same way (maybe faster) but w/o the market distortions that politicians are creating.

    My father have a building with 10 suites in it - there are 10 bathrooms there which water is heated by the sun.
    There is a little natural gas heater that comes in if demand is too big and sun is not showing up.
    the back up system rarelly kicks in and he never had a problem of lack of hot water in 10 years and no, my father didn't have any government incentive to install all of that, only the price of the grid energy....

    Hope I have clarified my point.

    Cheers,
    R
    Last edited by RACarvalho; 27th June 2014 at 06:45 PM.
    Ricardo

    For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless ... Ecclesiastes 2:21

  4. #24
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    No, I don't agree with the POLITICAL green agenda it's all wrong but there is the reality that the per capta energy demand is growing exponentially and traditional ways to produce energy will not be enough to keep up if you don't wnat to burn any fuel and keep the enviroment clean.
    Therefore I do see a reason to develop new technologies that will produce energy with less impact to the enviroment.
    I agree with all of the above.

    We will have coal / ethanol / diesel / natural gas, etc until a more appropriated solution is in place, but that solution will only be in place if technology developers have the incentive to work and Germany is a good incentive to them, not the green politician agenda.
    Agree with all of that except Germany being a good example.
    It is not good to mess up the energy plan like Germany has done.
    It is not good to ignore the pratical side of wind and solar as Germany has done.

    I have just changed my boat UK made solar panels over to German ones which offer the same yield with a walk on as they do with glass panels. Great and its good that the Germans have improved the walk ons but if anything billions have been diverted away from the real research that is needed into wasteful, stupid policies.

    What will happen when someone puts together a good battery and solar panel reach 50% efficiency? there is a ton of work and money being spend on these right now.
    But more could be spent on research if less was wasted pretending wind and solar are the answer to conventional sources.

    So my point is that Politicians should get out of the way with the green stuff and let the market run as it should which, in my understanding, would lead the development of solar and wind technologies the same way (maybe faster) but w/o the market distortions that politicians are creating.
    Sorryy that is wrong.
    In the UK wind power costs about ten times that of conventional power and nobody would develop it without huge government grants. The free market alone would not develop such expensive alternatives as fast.
    My father have a building with 10 suites in it - there are 10 bathrooms there which water is heated by the sun.
    There is a little natural gas heater that comes in if demand is too big and sun is not showing up.
    the back up system rarelly kicks in and he never had a problem of lack of hot water in 10 years and no, my father didn't have any government incentive to install all of that, only the price of the grid energy....
    Yes and I think that is great and that works in a sunny climate and when the person can afford the high capital expenditure.

    You are not going to stop laptops. tablets etc. What you can do is waste less energy and offer incentives to do that.

    Anyway you see that we are much nearer than you first thought as we both agree the need to research and come up with better technical solutions.

    It seems you now think that Germany has no choice now but to build those coal power stations? It is a crisis with no time to waste.

    It must be nice living in a country that has seen sense, stopped the carbon tax and rolled back the green agenda?
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  5. #25
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    The problem with German power is that they are afraid(like many in the usa) of Nuclear Power. While in France which uses Nucs for 85% of their power -there has not been any problems.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Spot on George.
    the UK has now ordered a nuclear power station paid four by China and ready min about 18 years!!! Some great planning here in the UK as government after government has simply ignored the issue and overused a stupid green policy that is now crumbling in front of their eyes.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  7. #27

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    More than half of British households take more from the national purse than they contribute!!!!!

    Good old socialism .... one day there will be nobody left to pay.

    Part of this is course because we borrow so much to keep the social security programme going.

    With new government tax rules its now possible to pay 45% tax on the overfall loss that you make from your businesses....thats another milestone, taxing losses at 45%.
    Good old capitalism. The rich hoard the money, lay of workers and make the left over workers work harder to make up for the workers they laid of so they can make more money. Then they drop the wages of the workers that are left because they realize they are thankful just to have a job, so the rich make more money. Then they have the balls to complain that the workers aren't paying their fair share into society, yet the workers can't afford to because their employer sucked all their money and pride out of them. The rich always seem to find a way to complain yet the solution is within their hands.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Seems to ne a fair few socialist around here echoing the views of yesteryear

    That is simply not correct. its a general smear that I would like to see some evidence for.

    Nor do you address the point of the post you are responding to concerning the over 50%.

    The fact is that the tax is collected and measured precisely and in the UK the top 1% pay 30% of the total tax collected. Do you think they should pay even more?

    Currently the effective top rate of tax is 51% that is with the NI contribution. It was recently 56%, What do you think it should be given that history shows much above 40% actually reduces tax yield?
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  9. #29

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    Seems to ne a fair few socialist around here echoing the views of yesteryear

    That is simply not correct. its a general smear that I would like to see some evidence for.

    Nor do you address the point of the post you are responding to concerning the over 50%.

    The fact is that the tax is collected and measured precisely and in the UK the top 1% pay 30% of the total tax collected. Do you think they should pay even more?

    Currently the effective top rate of tax is 51% that is with the NI contribution. It was recently 56%, What do you think it should be given that history shows much above 40% actually reduces tax yield?
    If the top 1% make 99% of the money maybe they should pay 99% of the taxes?
    And my view point is from the perspective of living in the US. I was born in Great Britain and still hold my passport but haven't been back in years.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Back to the Elect power situation: In the USA all the Electric power is generated by business monopolies--including any Government hydro or TVA-- these are supposed to be regulated as far as profit with rate boards etc. However they have a clause that entitles the monopolies to charge a profit on all their costs. Therefore the more they spend -the more they profited! Nice DEAL! LOL SO when nuclear became available the monopolies bent over backward to make them as complicated and costly as possible-so they could get more profits guaranteed. Nice eh? This stuck the USA with the most costly complicated nuclear power plants imaginable (By the way I worked on the construction of one as a construction engineer).and they were all different and all hard to operate . So instead of having the blessings of cheap simple nuclear power we have a mess! France- took an entirely different tack. They developed the best design and standardized it. That's why today the make 85% of their electricity from Nuclear power and its very cheap too.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    cost of elect : France (85%Nuke)=$0.193 Green Germany=$0.39 this is 100% more!

  12. #32
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    If the top 1% make 99% of the money maybe they should pay 99% of the taxes?
    And my view point is from the perspective of living in the US. I was born in Great Britain and still hold my passport but haven't been back in years.
    But they do not earn 99% of the money - nothing like it.
    Higher tax rates raise very little because there are so few earning the top crates.
    You are speaking from a position of blind envy rather than looking at the facts.

    The UK needs more people paying the higher tax rates but if they are too high the scare those people away. Thatcher dropped th tax rate from 68% when she came to power down to 40% and more tax was collected!!!!!
    You are actually suggesting a flat percentage rate because if the topi 1% earned 99% of the money they would pay 99% of the tax on a simple flat percentage rate to everybody!!! I would love that system
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  13. #33
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    George
    I totally agree.
    I worked once in tyne water industry and left a very senior post and blew the whistle. Natural monopolies need regulating and a percentage of cost is not the way.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  14. #34

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    But they do not earn 99% of the money - nothing like it.
    Higher tax rates raise very little because there are so few earning the top crates.
    You are speaking from a position of blind envy rather than looking at the facts.

    The UK needs more people paying the higher tax rates but if they are too high the scare those people away. Thatcher dropped th tax rate from 68% when she came to power down to 40% and more tax was collected!!!!!
    You are actually suggesting a flat percentage rate because if the topi 1% earned 99% of the money they would pay 99% of the tax on a simple flat percentage rate to everybody!!! I would love that system
    Strange isn't it how the rich are making record profits yet the middle class is disappearing and the poor are getting poorer. Maybe that's your answer? Funny as well how the rich always complain about the poor not paying their share yet the rich for the most part are the ones that control the workers wages. No Paul I have no blind envy for the rich, completely the opposite actually. Their greed is ruining the US as I'm sure it has something to do with the UK as well.
    And the US debt started rising rapidly when Ronald Reagan gave drastic tax cuts to the rich.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    SMJ
    YUou put forward a proposal whereby 99% of the money is earned buy the rich so they should pay 99% of the tax.
    I point out that this is a flat rate tax system. So for example if everyone paid 20% flat rate tax on earning and 1% earned 99% of the income then they would pay 99% of the tax but in fact of courts they posy very much more. You ignore the point that you proposed a flat rate tax system!!!!!

    Instead you move onto more conceptions:-

    Strange isn't it how the rich are making record profits yet the middle class is disappearing and the poor are getting poorer. Maybe that's your answer? Funny as well how the rich always complain about the poor not paying their share yet the rich for the most part are the ones that control the workers wages.
    What a simple world you live in
    Most shares are owned by pension funds etc not the rich as you put it and I can tell you that your simple analysis does not hold water.

    First of all record profits are not being made - if they were then record amounts of tax would be raised.

    Secondly in the UK the threshold for tax has been lifted so millions do not pay any tax at all. In fact over half the households in the UK actually take out of the system more than they put in!! (heard that somewhere before?)
    I personally support a system that does remove the bottom layer from tax and support what the current government has done over here on that point.

    Thirdly I am not complaining about the poor not paying their share of taxes ... I have never thought or suggested that. If you can get past the blinkers you are wearing I am simply stating that:-

    1. High tax rates raise less tax and are simply an envy tax to look good. I gave the Thatcher example to demonstrate that.

    2. That our government is getting deeper and deeper into debt financing a social welfare budget that is unsustainable. It is crazy.

    3. That the government in this crisis needs to maximise gross amount of tax collected.

    I would further add that in the UK the point at which our 40% tax rate applies (its really 46% with what we call NI added) is now so low that most of the middle class are getting crushed by it.

    Would you accept a system whereby if someone earned twice as much money they paid twice as much tax?
    Ten times as much money ten times as much tax?
    One hundred times as much money one hundred times as much tax?
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  16. #36

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    You are correct about the 99%, my mistake.

    Record profits are being made in the US.

    I believe 47% of the people don't pay taxes in the US. Mittens Romney got pretty popular over that statement!

    As I said, in the US the debt went up drastically following the Reagan tax breaks.

    Your right there are more people on welfare and unemployment now because there are less jobs. Why are there less jobs when corporations are making record profits?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    To take the point you have now accepted further, the top 1% in the UK pay 30% of the tax but only earn a tiny fraction of 30% of the income. That is because many pay no tax at all and the percentage rate of tax is not a flat rate.

    When Reagan lowered tax rates the USA increased its tax yield. It raised more taxes not less.

    Ok so is there not something wrong when 47% of people contribute nothing to they society but just take? It means that almost every one of the other tax payers has to carry a person not paying tax.

    Tyhe rich do not decide what they pay workers. The market does.

    The USA, like the UK adopted a stupid policy of letting cheap imports into their countries. It was unfair competition because the domestic manufacturers were handicapped with a lll sort of regulation from pollution to social care programs that the competition was not saddled with. Hence huge amounts of production shifted overseas and hence less jobs.

    Most business have struggled and continue too struggle through the recession. The corporations employ less people than all those small businesses and are able to use cheap labour overseas.

    Your simplistic approach tars all business as owned by the rich - not true.
    All businesses are like corporations.... not true.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  18. #38

    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    The question you need answered is why are so many people relying on the govt. to survive. Are they lazy or is there a lack of work or maybe a lack of a wage to live on.
    In the US corporations and large business are known to pay a substandard wage, where small business's pay more.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAdmin View Post
    To take the point you have now accepted further, the top 1% in the UK pay 30% of the tax but only earn a tiny fraction of 30% of the income. That is because many pay no tax at all and the percentage rate of tax is not a flat rate.

    When Reagan lowered tax rates the USA increased its tax yield. It raised more taxes not less.

    Ok so is there not something wrong when 47% of people contribute nothing to they society but just take? It means that almost every one of the other tax payers has to carry a person not paying tax.

    Tyhe rich do not decide what they pay workers. The market does.

    The USA, like the UK adopted a stupid policy of letting cheap imports into their countries. It was unfair competition because the domestic manufacturers were handicapped with a lll sort of regulation from pollution to social care programs that the competition was not saddled with. Hence huge amounts of production shifted overseas and hence less jobs.

    Most business have struggled and continue too struggle through the recession. The corporations employ less people than all those small businesses and are able to use cheap labour overseas.

    Your simplistic approach tars all business as owned by the rich - not true.
    All businesses are like corporations.... not true.
    Not that simple:
    Brazil taxes all the imports to"protect" the local industry.
    The result is lack of competition and double or more the US price WITH half of the wages....

    R
    Ricardo

    For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless ... Ecclesiastes 2:21

  20. #40
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    Default Re: An interesting UK statistic

    You are stroll simplifying.

    Free trade is good and I support it very much. But is has too be fair trade.
    Brazil adopted protectionist measures that were too much and not based on that principle.

    Today in the UK we have more people in work than ever in our history. We have about 7% unemployment and in any economy there will always be say 4 or 5% to allow for mobility of labour etc. It is still too high but the reasons for it are complex and include over 5 million immigrants over the last decade - a number that is greater then ever in our history. Another reason is a failed education system, a sloppy social welfare system that pays people not to work and be bestows penalties on them for trying to work. There are many reasons.

    Yoiu are adopting a very black and white approach to complex issues and seem to resent success.

    I am a UK resident and pay all my taxes. I have help create 300 jobs, we export to over 30 countries ..... surely the UK needs more people like me?
    If you penalise success everyone loses.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

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