Maverick 400 cracking up

[andando]

Peter, since you invited me to be public prosecuter, jury and judge in one here it goes.

There is one thing that always makes me incredibly angry. And that is when people do not fulfil the contracts that they sign.

Peter on the one hand you expect Rudy/Maverick to live up to their contract, but on the other hand you don´t live up to the contract that you apparently signed with Allen. In fact you tread Allen the same way as Rudy/Maverick treats you. And you have already indicated that you don´t like to be treated that way.

Since you invited this forum to decide on whether or not Allen should get paid, I propose to the forumadmin to start a poll: "Should Peter pay Allen´s salary", if yes how much?

I´ll start off. Based on the evidence in front of me that Allen and you have provided to this forum I can only arrive at the conclusion that Allen has done everything in his power to fulfil the contract, and therefore propose the following verdict: Peter should pay Allen´s full salary, plus surveys paid by Allen, plus interest, plus a defamation bonus.

Peter be a man and pay your debts. Don´t treat Allen the same way that Rudy treats you. There is no reason for you to wait for Mavericks response to pay your debts to Allen.

If you are of the opinion that Rudy/Maverick should pay at least part of Allen´s salary then you have to take Rudy/maverick on for that. That has nothing to do with you owing Allen his salary.

Bas.

Thank you for that . Actually, I agree with some of what you have said and your poll may be a good idea ,but first you should read the facts that will follow.

[andando]

RE Biochemist.
Allan was paid 50% plus another fee for Panama for sailing a third of the distance and he did not go through Panama . I organised a survey as agreed with Allan but he quit ,leaving Andando and crew in Trinadad. I subsequently cancelled the survey .

I had to go through a delivery company to find a new skipper and pay another fee plus another Panama fee.

I am not responsible for Allans exposure -please read launch of Andando thread from post 2 .You will find it was in actual fact his own crew member ! I doubt Rudi ,Paul or myself would have commented on the delivery publicly.

Allan was never named by me until recently when I asked his permission first.
AS Iam now starting to refer to the launch of Andando thread ,It makes sense to continue delivery comments and expanding on the delivery there.

I will continue with the service and issues with Andando on this thread .

[allan65]

Before responding to Peter’s post I would like to pose a question to Rudi. If your daughter had been crew on Andando would you still have deemed the cracks cosmetic, especially in Trinidad after receiving a negative report from Sparcraft, your own representative.? The parents of my crew are no doubt pleased I disagreed with you.


With ref to the furore on L. of A. thread, started, as Peter has told me countless times, by one of my crew. Like all crew he was an inexperienced, unpaid volunteer. I have no control or knowledge of what he does after a delivery. It was foolish and he has apologised but did add that “ Rudi started it when he sent us to sea in an unseaworthy boat” Although what he said on the forum wasn’t very clear, nothing he said was untrue and from what I understand (you will have gathered I‘m neither familiar nor comfortable with computers etc.) he is entitled to his view and this forum is exactly for people to express their opinions however humble they may be. Peter however seems to think that this opened the door for Rudi to absolutely slander me and that this was quite acceptable because “Barrie started it”.

Peter’s comments at that time, while not as harmful as Rudi’s, all implied he agreed. It seems to me that Rudi assumed this was some kind of concerted attack by Barrie and myself so he decided to discredit anything I might choose to say. Actually at the time I was doing my best to forget I’d ever heard the name Andando. Anyone who wants to question me re any of Rudi’s accusations please do. I can reply or Peter can send a copy of mails i sent at the time.

Recently a Durban skipper and 2 crew were lost at sea after being pressured to leave when he said it was unsafe. The delivery co. concerned just lost a suit brought against them by the families. Even with a boat that has no problems a skipper who does not have the confidence of at least the owner and preferably the owner and the factory has no option but to withdraw. I was in the position where a bunch of Rudi’s friends and their wives were very adamant that a little filler and Andando would be right as rain.

I can’t believe I‘m talking about whether I should have carried on. Surely Peter’s reports settle that for once and all. Whether I stayed for the survey or not I would and should have pulled out.

Within 1hr. of clearing customs in Trinidad I had Peake’s inspect the boat and an hour later Billy Wray a Lloyd’s surveyor did the same and Peter had it in writing. That afternoon I sent Rudi the contact details of local Simrad agents. It NEVER for a moment entered my head that there would be any debate about the survey. I still had the vague hope that the survey would prove me wrong and we could be out of there in a few days.

It was 10 days later I left. Peter’s decision came too late. I was tired of the arm wrestle and was also in danger of making a bad decision just to get moving, any delivery skipper knows the feeling. Peter’s insurance was surely invalid in view of Mr. Wray.s report This to me shows a total lack of concern for behaviour which my old fashioned mind calls “proper” Do what you like on your own boat but do not put a paid delivery skipper in such a position where he has to debate and argue every detail with someone sitting in an office in C.T. This is just setting him up to take the fall. I wander whether Johan sometimes wakes up at night and thinks about how lucky he was. Which come to think of it, i.e, Johan doing the delivery, makes me wonder why Peter paid a delivery co. ?

I will address the issue of finances in my next post, I’m sure you have had enough for now.

[allan65]

For the benefit of those of you who are dreaming of a romantic life upon the sea making a fortune as a delivery skipper let me give you a few facts.
We are expected to pay for

Flights to C.T., all the food, the diesel, 30/40 containers for extra diesel and emergency water, paper charts, first aid kit, all the galley equipment pots, pans, plates cutlery plus cleaning stuff. Two 9kg gas bottles plus gas, all the bedding sheets pillows a sleeping bag. All of this gets dumped on delivery. I have on occasion had to dump my tool kit because of excess baggage. In addition we pay for all the costs of unforced stops plus fresh food and diesel on the way. I hate stopping but the crew needs a break every 4 weeks or so.

All expenses waiting in C.T. we pay for. The boats are never ready on the day specified. In Rudi’s case he took 3 weeks—quite quick actually but meant 3 weeks car hire plus food in expensive restaurants.

The point is by the time you leave your 50% is long gone. Which brings me to my expenses. I have given Peter a complete accounting of my expenses except that the travel co. undercharged me R3000 by mistake and only put it through afterwards. I also forgot the ferry in Trinidad which at R25 each way per person very quickly added up(no tender on deliveries) . We did eat ashore a fair bit when stopped for 2 reasons. One we still thought we would need that food and of course our cooking is always terrible. Instead of paying what I spent I would be happy if he just paid the 10$ a day per person while stopped , that I allow for food during costing . I have receipts for everything on the list I sent him bar the ferry in St. Helena. He is welcome to post it.

A clause in my contract said Peter was to supply a sat. Phone. He did not do so. When I queried this with Rudi he said buy one and “present” it to him. I bought one with $500 air time. $350 was used on the trip and $150 expired just before I sold it for R7000 (I paid approx. R17,000 with airtime if my memory serves me. Act in good faith regret at leisure. I’m approx R25000 out of pocket and peter paid 60 of a R100,000 fee leaving 40,000

[805gregg]

I think it is terrible that you have to wear a wetsuit to go inside your boat

[andando]

I think it is terrible that you have to wear a wetsuit to go inside your boat

Thanks for bringing a bit of humour into this -actually I had just been for a windsurf .........At least this does not crack evertime I look at it !!

[skipperdj]

have read thru most of the postings and also L of A thread. agree completely with bio-chemist by the way. I am a delivery skipper with in excess of 200,000 miles sailing experience including ocean racing. I would not have done this delivery for less than US$ 18,000 - 20,000 with a charge of US$ 150 per day for every wasted day in port not due to skippers fault. also there would be a charge for airfares for 2 crew. should I have only done 30% of the trip plus 30 days wasted this would still have totalled US$ 10,500 or ZAR 105,000 which is what I feel is the absolute minimum allen is entitled to. also looking at all the pictures, the info supplied and andandos admission of bad workmanship and promised apology to the skipper and his legal hassles with maverick I too would have refused to risk my life, that of the crew and my reputation to carry on with this delivery until all issues had been resolved. I fail to see why issues with maverick should be resolved before the skipper gets paid.

[andando]

Allan , I would like to ask you to post the correspondance between us from July 22 2011 at 8.20pm through to the one informing me you had quit . Please post them in the correct order and without any comments, as that will confuse the readers .There are not many and most are less than 5 lines .If you prefer not to, I will put this to you ...
I will agree not to post them either and the long (3 year) disagreement between us privately and now in public ends right now with you and I agreeing simply to not agree !

[Southern Star]

Assuming there are no emails prior to that time necessary in order to fully understand the exchanges (and if so, there is no suggestion he can't post those as well), seems like a fair suggestion to me.

[andando]

Allan is free to print what he likes and he could have done so years ago .,My suggestion here is simply limit them to the time related in Trinadad and keep it short( no additional long comments ) . I only asked Allan to wait until the Andando cracking thread was finished before posting because
1. I had hoped that Rudi would have come to the party and defended himself on the thread .
2.Rudi could have also defended himself regarding the delivery and been able to decide what he post's and in some sort of dream, I thought he may offer to replace Andando and apologise to Allan also.
3 I knew my thread would end up being hyjacked and end up where it is now and by posting after the full Andando cracking thread had been completeted it would make the delivery thread easier to follow
.Regarding the original Andando cracking thread -there's a lot to come here, but I will wait until the delivery part is completed before I resume .

[D&D]

Since using this as a slander fest, i am sure there are creditors out there that would love to know that you have money stowed away somewhere! And how does one operate a "charter company" whilst in bankruptcy?!?!
Or is the internet lying again when i do a search on New Zealand bankruptcies

Amongst all this angst and all the unhappy participants, the above stands as a glaring mis-statement (without going into the legal offences it clearly involves) that should be withdrawn by floatdaboat. One doubts Peter will be inclined to sue -- Proving the offence would be easy, although the damages may be more troublesome -- but courtesy to a fellow sailor really begs for 'the right thing' to be done.

The other glaring and especially offensive gap in all this is ANY comment whatsoever from Rudi/Maverick. There is another well settled legal doctrine that would apply here, viz. where a party clearly can provide relevant evidence, but fails to do so, the Court will assume that evidence would be against that party's case.

Even if this matter never sees the inside of a Court, we suspect the most appropriate judge will use words like these...

In my opinion, there is a huge amount of very pertinent detail in his post and my hope is anyone considering buying a Maverick read what Alan has said very carefully. As a Caveat Emptor, it makes for very educational reading!

Enough legalese...we again extend our heartfelt feelings to both Peter and Allan.

[andando]

Thank you . To make the comment worse -Floataboat asked for members "not to use their thread to bag the product " and note, I respected their request and have, up to this very day !
How soon they jumped on my thread though ?
I wonder who told them such a thing ? It is not a normal thing go and search .
At some point I thought about contacting them with a P/M to ensure that they put certain things in place so that they could avoid any repeat of my nightmare -I didn't because I did not want to drop Rudi and his new partner "in it " and after reading their Libel against me ,it would probably have fallen on deaf ears anyway or backfired and ended up with me being sued by Rudi for damaging his product !

[allan65]

Peter I would appreciate it if you could post the mails mentioned. I had enough trouble with the existing posts. Also i have told you many times you are welcome to post any of my mails, bad language and all

[andando]

MAVERICK CATAMARAN DELIVERY (my side)
I will ask you all and Allan to wait until I have finished sharing my side of the story before commenting please.

I have never met Allan, but if we did meet I think we would buy each other a beer, disagree and throw the drinks over each other and buy more beers and continue. How it would end up I have no idea but we would be well drunk by then!
I could go into the delivery for days but I am going to keep it simple.
In the absence of any input from Rudi, I am reluctant to defend either party.
I don't know why my boat did not get any sea trials - especially after it was completed about a year late! Some have reported already that the skipper refused.
Regarding the extra fuel used and stops. Paul has a similar set up I believe, I chose the same Simrad that he has. If it could be sorted in 15 minutes, who is to blame for not flicking the switch to the correct setting (and all the extra fuel used and stops)… Me?
The diversion to Luderitz, again it was reported that the problem was fixed before the Yanmar agent had chance to get to the job and could have been fixed on route… is that at my cost too?

TRINIDAD
I want to take you back here, and at this stage you will have to wipe out the fact that we NOW know the cause of my Maverick Catamaran cracking up.

Contrary to what has been revealed so far there was actually a hive of activity going on. Immediately after Allan had contacted the surveyor I was corresponding straight away with him also.
I made calls to Southern Spars NZ and had to wait for the specialist on catamaran rigs to return from overseas.
Rudi and Paul were organising contacts in Trinidad to go and check out Andando too. Then there were riggers to sort out and the Simrad gear to investigate.
To make matters worse the hurricane season was closing in too!
I was receiving information from Allan, which you have read, and a lot of conflicting information from Rudi and others that delved into a "murky" past of Allan’s previous deliveries.
To be honest at that stage I didn't know who to believe - the experienced skippers and builder, or Allan? If I were to give you 3 days worth of reading I think you would have been as confused as me too!
One thing I am sure of though is that Andando was in a sorry state as some have described a pigsty!! Before all that though...

THE FOLLOWING IS THE KEY to a lot of disagreement between Allan and I and given the information at the time I would put the same proposal forward again:


From Peter
July 22nd 2011 at 8.20pm

"Regarding inspecting the boat. IF you think it is SO bad I will put this option to you. Whenever you think it would need to be checked out because you feel it unsafe then we get it checked on this basis.
I will pay for the inspection on the understanding if the boat checks out to be seaworthy, we split the cost 50/50.
If it proves unseaworthy then I will pay 100% of the inspection and I will recover this from Rudi along with all repairs needed.
I want to give you a fair option and I think this is fair to all"


Reply from Alan
July 23 2011 at 7.33pm

"Thanks Peter, I am happy with that arrangement”



TO BE CONT…

[allan65]

Thank you readers of this forum for your patience. I hope you will bear with me for what I hope is my last word on Peter and my difference of opinion. Although I could post many more copies of mails I believe I have made my case and have a feeling I may need them in the future. I’m sorry Peter made the wrong choice of boat, unfortunately thereafter he made several other errors, in fact it seems the only correct choice was choosing ( excuse me while I find my trumpet) A competent, honest skipper. I would also like to point out that many delivery skippers have been through similar experiences.
From: Allan Firbank [mailto:alfir@vodamail.co.za]
Sent: 05 August 2014 01:44 AM
To: 'hnd@oceandriven.net'
Subject: draft

Well I had hoped to avoid going through all of this but peter’s “side” leaves me no option. After signing the Contract with Peter I sent him my banking details for the 50% UPFRONT payment. Peter sent me a mail saying he bought his foreign currency in bulk and could not pay then. It seemed to me he was telling me he was too rich to pay me.
Rudi asked if I would come down a week ahead of time to help get the boat ready. Although this was a my own expense I agreed and booked accommodation. Then the launch was late and Rudi cancelled. Fortunately I had stayed regularly at the place I booked and they did not sting me for my deposit.
When I quoted to deliver Andando I quoted to deliver a seaworthy brand new boat tested by the factory. If they had asked me to quote to first finish building the boat for them my quote would have been slightly higher. All new boats delivered from C.T. receive only basic trials to check systems etc. not to do long term trouble shooting. I had been in C.T. about 10 days and was R15,000 out of pocket and had not received any money yet. I sent a testy mail to Peter complaining that it was unfair that I the poorest was financing this deal (did not realise I was predicting the future). Unfortunately an hour later I received an SMS saying the money had arrived. Bad timing on my part but entirely correct. Peter was highly indignant that I was a person who expected people to do what they have agreed to do.

Shortly after we departed we started having engine problems and I noticed the first crack (the one in the main saloon bulkhead).Although the evidence was very slight then, deep down (and believe me until the day I left I tried to convince myself otherwise) I knew the boat was in serious trouble.I said then to the crew this is all going to end in tears, most of them mine. I decided to alter course to Luderitz and attend to the engine there. I also wanted to send pictures to Rudi and could not do so with the sat phone. What I thought would happen then is that Rudi would freak out and be there like a shot, the designer would fly up, they would say sorry guys but the delivery is off. Silly me.
The engine problem like most things on Andando was a combination of things. When checking the engine at sea the coolant was full, the salt water pump was fine, the fresh water was OK and I thought perhaps it was a faulty sensor. Actually there was a small exhaust leak and a small coolant leak While the engine was running the coolant would be pumped out with the exhaust water so we did not see it. The coolant reservoir was full because a hose clamp had been left off the suction pipe so the res. was always full. We went to Luderitz for the cracks not the engine. It made no sense to work on it at sea if we were stopping.
During the time that we were using that engine I, who was in the cabin ahead of it, was suffering from acute headaches and kept waking with feeling of ants crawling all over my skin. I thought perhaps I was developing an allergy to the resin as has happened to other skippers. When we switched to using only the other engine I felt fine. I believe I was being poisoned by the exhaust. If the other engine had started over heating and we had run on mine I don’t think I would be writing this. I can post a mail I sent to Rudi from Fortalezai discussing this and other issues. He did not reply.
Every delivery skipper knows that you do not touch guaranteed equipment on the boat. If you think it’s something simple as I did with the Mastervolt system you inform the factory and they either give you the go ahead or tell you where to go to have it attended to. I’m not going to bore you with all the mails I sent to Rudi trying to get a sensible reply. I can post a letter from the supplier after we were given permission and reset the unit that it had never been switched on at all and that he had never had that happen before.

With ref. to the boat being a “mess”On our first afternoon in port the boat was inspected by 2 people who emptied all the lockers and pulled out all the liners etc.. At 7.30 the next morning 4 couples and their children arrived uninvited on Andando. Was Andando untidy below decks? ASOLUTELY . Was she properly tied up and the sailing gear stowed? ABSOLUTELY

Peter goes on to mention my murky past and as example sent me this. Sent: 04 August 2014 04:36 PM
To: Allan Firbank
:
From: peter windsor [mailto:peterjwindsor@gmail.com]
Sent: 04 August 2014 02:25 PM
To: Allan Firbank
Subject: Fwd: extract from blog of a person who did a delivery with Allan Firbank, i think it was in 2006
Hi Rudi/Peter

I thought there must be something on the web re Allan. I found this blog written by a crew member who was on a delivery with Allan. Reading it is self explanatory! I also included the link, I have copied most of the posts onto a word document if it is easier to read, or you can look at the blog. Makes interesting reading. what do they say, leopards do not change their spots!! The blog actually starts at the last one so read from the bottom up.

http://www.123people.co.uk/ext/frm?ti=personensuche%20telefonbuch&search_term=nei l%20liddell&search_country=GB&st=suche%20nach%20pe rsonen&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Fkrossingthepond.blo gspot.com%2F2006%2F01%2Fprelude.html&section=blog& wrt_id=261

Cheers
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:09 PM, Allan Firbank <alfir@vodamail.co.za> wrote:
Peter the e-mail of the first mate on that trip was Haydon Dauw. E-mail hnd@oceandriven.net. Peter I can assure you Ryan was a friend of haydon’s had never stepped on a yacht before leaving C.T. and was voted by all of us to leave in Fortaleza. Haydon and I remain friends today I don’t know about him and Ryan. The Neil who he refers to was first mate on my next trip even though like Ryan the first time he ever stepped on a boat was leaving C.T.. Seems like he had different ideas to Ryan who started as a friend of his but did not end that way. This is absolute desperation Peter and I really hope they or you for that matter want to bring up this kind of crap. Remember I always sail with 3+me and keep careful records. I could not stop laughing at this crap. If you give me some time I can find Neil’s e-mail as well. You’ve made my day.
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:09 PM, Allan Firbank <alfir@vodamail.co.za> wrote:
To: Allan Firbank
Subject: Re: FW: extract from blog of a person who did a delivery with Allan Firbank, i think it was in 2006

Hi Al,

I'm aware of this blog actually. Read it a few years ago. It's all about context. Ryan's complaining was specific to

• Getting into trouble for doing his watch from his berth
• Getting into trouble for leaving his light on
• Bridging the fuse of your laptop charger using tinfoil thus invalidating the purpose of the fuse
• Keeping power usage to a minimum - not using it to watch DVD's etc.
• Upset about you making him throw his contraband overboard
• Upset that we rationed everything and restricted the use of diesel.

You also have to remember the conditions of "Charisma". The port engine was full of sea-water - no goose neck.
We had one working engine and a generator. Neither of which charged properly. Our refrigeration was non-existant and all our water had leaked out for the 2nd time. We were on water, power and food rations due to the bad build and preparation of the boatbuilder. All our power was reserved for nav, nav lights and the autohelm.
We were at times rather miserable. And no-one more so than Ryan as Ryan is used to comfort and having things done for him.

This blog extract actually says nothing whatsoever. From what I have read it accuses you of pettiness, complaining and making him do chores. As explained above, we had circumstances which prevented us from experiencing the 5 star cruise all the brochures talk about.

Feel free to forward this to Peter/Rudi although what it has to do with Andando I have absolutely no idea. The context is completely different and actually has no bearing on your abilities as a skipper. The very things Ryan complains about are what actually make you a good skipper. A delivery is not a 5 star cruise. Rationing is part of sailing. Power saving is part of sailing. Us running out of water, and fresh food were a boat issue, not yours.

Any further queries from Peter or Rudi regarding Charisma can be directed to me. +27 83 424 3425 or hnd@oceandriven.net but once again I battle to find the context.
Charisma was a boat with malfunctioning components which made our trip uncomfortable.
Andando is a boat currently cracking up due to structural issues and is actually dangerous to sail.
Cheers,Haydon

Rudi’s attack on me on the forum was the rhetoric of a man desperate to avoid his responsibilities, so is Peter’s. I believe what I have had to say is unanswerable. Their treatment of me was and is shameful to say the least. There were 4 couples in Trinidad all obviously friends of Rudi’s. 7 of these experts lead by Mark Williams (who particularly disagreed with me about the rigging) were adamant that a little filler and Andando would be right as rain. The 8th was Jan Cluuistra a very experienced sailor who’s opinion I would have valued and did indeed ask for. His reply was “no comment” Peter has since informed me that Jan quoted to complete the delivery. Either I seriously over estimated Jan’s capabilities or he is a very cynical man. I believe that their actions bordered on criminal and I’m not sure which side of the border. They influenced an inexperienced sailor, Johan, into making a decision which could have cost the family their lives.

[rallyman1122]

Am I the only person that thinks these two are just looking to score points with the forum memembers and slag off the other one? Yes, the boat has serious issues. Yes, the delivery Captain had real concerns about completing the delivery.

I think we all get that now. Let it go, boys. Time for the forum to be used for something more constructive than a slagging match!

[gramos]

Am I the only person that thinks these two are just looking to score points with the forum memembers and slag off the other one? Yes, the boat has serious issues. Yes, the delivery Captain had real concerns about completing the delivery.

I think we all get that now. Let it go, boys. Time for the forum to be used for something more constructive than a slagging match!

+ 1

[Rudip]

Dear Forum Members

We have learned many things from Andando and Peter has communicated many helpful suggestions for improvement to us over the past 3 (three) years. We have incorporated these ideas into our newer yachts. It has been a valuable learning experience for us. Our new yachts have improved as a result.

All these quality concerns have been addressed on the yachts we are launching today.

We acknowledge Peter’s complaints, and we have done many things to help him in the past. We have flown to New Zealand twice to provide after sales service and support and co-ordinate repairs to the damages on his yacht.

The quality concerns on Andando are unique and are not present on the other 15 (fifteen) yachts we have built. We have built 7 (seven) yachts since Andando.

We have offered full co-operation in an Arbitration proceeding to Peter as being a simple and expedient way of both parties to provide a resolution to the matter. We believe an independent arbitrator would be in the best position to assess the facts and determine a fair and equitable solution for both parties.

Regards
Rudi

[Karen]

Originally posted by Rudip

Quote:
[...]The quality concerns on Andando are unique and are not present on the other 15 (fifteen) yachts we have built. We have built 7 (seven) yachts since Andando.[...]
A few questions, Rudi:

1. Just to clarify, in spite of a statement to the contrary on this forum, are you categorically saying Catlyn, Hull No. 1 did not have any cracking at all?

2. And if Andando really is the only boat to have such a worrying array of cracks and shortcomings in the build, then why was that??? What went so drastically wrong with her build and only her build?

Lastly, this paragraph forms part of your statement made on this forum on the 3rd September 2011:

As to the twisting of the boat and a number of small cracks appearing in some places which we believe are cosmetic. This is directly due to the mast not being maintained during the voyage. Such maintenance is part of a delivery skipper’s duties

But the cracks shown in Peter's videos and Allan's photos appear to be neither small nor cosmetic and they are very, very numerous. Nor can they reasonably be blamed on the skipper failing to re-adjust the rig tension. In fact, looking at Peter's video evidence, there is very little if anything that can be attributed to the negligence or ignorance of Allan Firbank - just the ignorance and/or negligence of Maverick. So do you not think it is high time - in fact, long overdue - that you make Allan a public apology?

Karen

[Karen]

ps ... sorry for the rather odd formatting in the above - forum gremlins to blame. The 'Quote' function seems to be buggered and so, too, the 'Edit' facility.

Karen