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Thread: Simply put, "More Speed"!

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Millbrook Cornwall UK
    Posts
    177

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Does a rotating mast benefit from double diamonds to minimize the width of the setup to be able to sheet closer?


    Any way of reducing the length of the spreaders will help by reducing the sheeting angle of the jib. Indeed the most up to date masts in the multihull and IRTA fleets are spreaderless, but this appears only possible using carbon and shed-loads on money!

    I would assume that by decreasing the jib sheeting angle the jib your leeway would increase, already one of your problems. Could increasing the depth of your keels help reduce leeway. It seems an easier fix the fitting daggerboards but would increase your wetted area, as usual with sailing you can't get something for nothing.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sag Harbor, NY
    Posts
    106

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonskater View Post
    Ixenophon, Yes some of my friends laugh at me for saving a kg here and a kg there "and then you bring diving tanks!"
    But the idea is to carry the weight i want to carry, not the other weight. There is no point in carrying a 30 kg saloontable, it does not make it a better table. The new tables weigh 6 kg. Taking out the smaller 180 litre watertank saved an average of 90 kg (tank on average halffull) and made "room" for the watermaker and some other toys. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that my boat should lack performance in light weather?
    My issue is speed on every angle as you can read above, the Screecher or Code0 is already in place.
    /petter
    "IMO most cruising catamarans are overloaded with supplies and toys, and should be lacking performance in this wind range. "

    Wasn't referring to your boat in particular. I meant most. Including the two I've owned.

    From 38 footers to multimillion $$ 66' Gunboats. I remember a guy trying to sell me his gunboat mast in Newport RI...

    Extra weight will manifest in less performance in lighter winds. It's the trade off.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Quote Originally Posted by iXenophon View Post
    "IMO most cruising catamarans are overloaded with supplies and toys, and should be lacking performance in this wind range. "

    Wasn't referring to your boat in particular. I meant most. Including the two I've owned.

    From 38 footers to multimillion $$ 66' Gunboats. I remember a guy trying to sell me his gunboat mast in Newport RI...

    Extra weight will manifest in less performance in lighter winds. It's the trade off.
    Yes totally agree. Wind force follows a square rule so double the wind speed = four times the force pressing on the sails. The power to weight ratio is often too low for heavy boats in lighter winds.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonskater View Post
    Hi,
    i'm Petter and i am fairly new to the forum and have been doing a little posting and a lot of reading. We, the family is on an extended cruise around Europe and we are at present in Northern Cyprus for the winter.
    This thread is meant to be about what i have to do to get more speed out of our catamaran.

    3, Daggerboards. She points allright but the leeway kills most of the progress made. Someone mentioned that taking off the LAR's will reduce bouancy and we dont want that so maybe have booth..?

    So, there you have it
    Go easy on me!

    Petter
    Removing the LARS will reduce your buoyancy, but only slightly. Maybe by a couple of hundred kilo's, so maybe you'll float a millimetre deeper. It will reduce your drag by a much more significant amount. You will go to windward better, but it's a common misconception that sailing to windward is the only place you gain from having daggerboards. You'll be faster on EVERY point of sail, since you won't have the extra wetted area and interference drag of the LARS.

    But whether it would be enough to justify the expense and effort of a retrofit is questionable.

    You could also convert your current fixed mast to rotating reasonably simply and cheaply.
    Last edited by 44C; 8th February 2015 at 08:59 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Mackay,QLD, Australia
    Posts
    349

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    I reckon that the way to go.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Downunder, wich way is that out of the many suggested?
    /petter

  7. #27

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    You might be better served to save the money you're thinking about investing in mods and spending time (saving up for in the meantime) looking for to buy an older Outremer, or early-generation Catana, here's one for sale
    http://www.polynesia-yacht.com/fr/bateau/catana-40

    wish she'd been up when I was looking

  8. #28

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Petter; not that it makes a differance but when or how soon after you aquired you cat did you realize you werent getting the performance that you wanted?

  9. #29

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Tamicatana, the boat you suggest is right along the lines regarding performance specs. But then she's a 1988 boat, ours is a 1993 and i think that is old.. I'm not sure what i'm saying but i think it's a classical "i want it all" good looks, light, modern etc, etc, i know i' m being difficult here but the Catanas don't appeal to me. Maybe if i got on one it'd be different but i have not, yet.

    Victor, we bought the boat in 2009. We already had a weight perspective from previous diligent catsailors so the focus was on from the start. The big code0 was reality in 2011 so i guess the thoughts were developing a year after purcase. But, i'm pretty sure that if we had got any other cat, the ideas and "improvements" had kept coming anyway, just the way i am, always on the move trying to improve.

    Before we bought this one we looked alot at different Schionning designs like the Cosmos or Waterline 1160 models, they seem to have the specs that i'm looking to achieve with this boat. The used ones on the market were out of our range, building one is tempting, their recent G-Force 1200 or slightly larger built with resin infused foam core would be a dream.
    /Petter

  10. #30

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Sounds like you have a good vision as to what you are aiming to archive. For me it took at least 6 years to accomplish I still can improve but ive realized that the trade off of money plus down time will interfere with my sailing enjoyment. Whats really funny is that mistly all the improvements I made to CatNip SeaWind 1000 were poo pooed by the builder initially. I say initially because after a while the builder adapted almost all of my mods.
    GOOD LUCK TO YOU in your quest for performance. I have realized I can go only as fast as my budget and time will allow.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Victor,
    yes i have read about a couple of hull extentions on Seawinds, it sounds as also they benefited from the extra volume and length. I guess it is difficult for a builder designer to OK a mod because in there somewhere lies a liability issue. They are worried that we would come after a failed, but Ok'd mod and say "but you said it would be ok!"
    when fitting the masthead hoisted Code0, FP said its not ok with a upwind sail like that without Runners, so i fitted runners. If someone can tell me how to put pictures here i can show you the install. /p

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    'Estrella del Sur' is currently on the hard in Fort Pierce, Florida for hurricane season.
    Posts
    675

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Uncivilized, glad to see you have joined this forum - always glad to receive your imput on technical issues. I need to order a new headsail for my cat (which is cutter rigged, abeit with a genoa rather than a yankee as rigged) and would like to see some improvement in upwind performance, if possible. While I had been debating a straight replacement, I have recently given some thought to putting a highfield lever on my staysail stay (which I really only use in very heavy conditions) and converting my headsail to a self-tacking one with a curved track and cars on the coachroof. This would have the efffect of moving the sheeting angles well in from where they currently are (outside the shrouds) which I suspect will improve upwind performance. I intend to leave my existing sheets on as 'lazy' sheets for sailing off the wind and when the sail is completely unfurled ( running aft of the foward lower shrouds). Yes, closer sheeting angles may increase leeway, however on my boat the headsail is invariably luffing upwind when the mainsail is well trimmed and drawing efficiently. I am anticipating not only being able to point a bit higher, but also some gain in performance when bearing off a bit for best VMG, but still more closely sheeted than I can now accomplish with my outboard sheeting. I guess my question is whether you and others think it will be worth the cost and effort, apart from the obvioius benefit of having a self-tacking jib upwind, in terms of potential performance gains? The sheeting angles on my boat have always struck me as ridiculous, since the shrouds are quite far outboard - especially for someone with a lifetime sailng monohulls. And yes, I have tried to reduce weight to a reasonable minimum (my wife's 'bare' minimum). I have also considered and am still considering hull extensions. And yes, I know my boat will never be a performance cat (atlhough the hull shapes have a relatively high prismatic coefficient, relatively narrow beam and u-shaped sections over most of the bottom). Thoughts anyone?

    Brad

  13. #33

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Tighter sheeting angles should definitely let you point higher. As a guide, our sheet lead tracks are mounted at 8 degrees from the centreline.

    If you can set up a self tacking track, you'll be able to experiment with sheeting angles to see what works best.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    'Estrella del Sur' is currently on the hard in Fort Pierce, Florida for hurricane season.
    Posts
    675

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Thanks 44C. You're boat will obviously point higher as it has boards and is much lighter, but I am pretty confident that I can do better than I am now.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Hi Brad - hope you're well.

    Re: switch to self tacker. Despite the improved sheeting angle, will this significantly reduce your headsail sail area? Perhaps this isn't a valid comparison to your boat, but I'll offer a data point comparing self tackers to overlappers on mine: The later hull numbers of my model came standard with a self tacking solent jib and permanently installed reacher on a sprit. In contrast I have a 140% genoa that sheets less closer than the "solents" (and a removable reacher on a sprit). But unless the wind is too strong for me to use my fulll genoa upwind, the upwind performance of the solent boats is not as good. They may be able to keep their solent working on a bit higher AWA, but if it's that windy they're pointing too high and are losing speed due to sea state effects. In light to moderate wind there's no contest in upwind performance. Some of the owners of these boats have backfitted overlapping genoas.

    Fair winds,
    Dave

  16. #36

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Have you though about a 7/8 rig with wishbone im in australia and it works really well on a well loaded trimaran in any seas even light winds

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    'Estrella del Sur' is currently on the hard in Fort Pierce, Florida for hurricane season.
    Posts
    675

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Thanks Dave. My intention was to use the self-tacking rig only when sailing upwind in reasonable conditions with the headsail partially reefed so as to allow it to clear the forward shroud. The existing sheets would remain attached as lazy sheets, to be deployed when reaching or running and with the sail completely unfurled. However, you make a very good point - my VMG may well be worse upwind due to the reduced sail area, even though I can point higher. If that is the case, then the only benefit of the rig would be in situations where one is required to short-tack......... I think you have just talked me out of it - hardly worth the expense for an experiment that may bring few, if any benefits.

    Brad

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
    My intention was to use the self-tacking rig only when sailing upwind in reasonable conditions with the headsail partially reefed so as to allow it to clear the forward shroud. The existing sheets would remain attached as lazy sheets, to be deployed when reaching or running and with the sail completely unfurled.
    Roger - I missed the detail of have a dual purpose headsail, which sounds appealing. I wasn't trying to talk you out of it. There have been occasions when I would have liked a self tacker - especially when we're double handed. A few times we've furled the genoa down to about 100% to make short tacking a little less work, but this obviously doesn't make it as no-nonsense as a real set up.

    Dave

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    'Estrella del Sur' is currently on the hard in Fort Pierce, Florida for hurricane season.
    Posts
    675

    Default Re: Simply put, "More Speed"!

    We will be double handing quite a bit; however, I have enough projects on the go at the moment that I am putting this on the back-burner based upon a cost-benefit analysis.

    Brad

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