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Thread: Cruising proas

  1. #1
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    Default Cruising proas

    Is there anyone who can explain the advantages of these boats, especially as cruising boats? I think that they will gain in popularity if people understood the many advantages they can offer.

    Alan

  2. #2

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    G'day,

    Conventional proas (Pacific and Atlantic) have many drawbacks, which is why they have never been popular. Harryproas combine the best of both, and solve some of the problems common to both.

    The advantages of a harry type are:
    1) Low cost and light weight. A harry weighs about half as much as a cat of similar space. Consequently, it is cheaper to build.
    2) Simpler: Unstayed, rotating rig, two large rudders, no daggerboards, no holes in the hulls, simpler to shunt than to tack or gybe, no changing sides, no winching of sheets.
    3) Faster: Lighter, with hull shapes that are not compromised for tacking ability, less hydro drag, less aero drag.
    4) Safer: No need to go on the foredeck, no flogging sails, very quick return to man overboard, much less to break, automatic depowering in a gust.

    I appreciate that these are big calls to make, but proof of the performance ones are in a video of a cruising harry effortlessly sailing at windspeed in 10-15 knot bereezes at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA This boat weighs 3.5 tonnes/tons ready to cruise. It has a bunch of extras over and above the standard harryproa which weighs 2.25 tonnes/tons. It is the maiden sail, the crew were not trying and the sails needed recutting. Compare the relaxed crew with any pictures you can find of a similar size cruising cat performing as well.

    For further information on harryproas, see www.harryproa.com

    regards,
    Rob

  3. #3

    Default Proa info

    Try this web site for info on proas that have actually survived ocean crossings.
    http://www.wingo.com/proa/links.html


    The sub-links below provide the more insightful reading.

    Reply to Denney's critiques of Brown et al by Steven Callahan
    Moderating the Proa List by Joseph Oster

  4. #4
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    Default

    Can we please not turn this into a bash Rob Denney site. Indeed Catty can we show more maturity and less desire to pick fights on this board, god knows CF lives on the antagonism driven by a few, how about we live on the positive, critical but positive approach we can bring to a discussion. Nordic asked a question, Rob replied, not unreasonably pointing people to his product. There is simply no need for a fight, - by all means offer up a positive link to further proa discussions, but offering heresay evidence of 3rd parties disagreements with Rob really helps no one. I cant comment on proas - I have never sailed one. What I can do is point out to Nordic that there are a range of views and a range of proa styles and designers.

    Let him draw his own conclusions.

    The proa community strike me as an organism that is in the early stages of development, a teenager in the world of a sailing sub species, there are some pretty strong and robust views on all sides.

  5. #5
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    Default Facts about proas

    There is no fundamentalism in these articles. Just some some lemmas, calculations and conclusions. Hope you could read these with open mind. I made them to explain myself how they work.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #6

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    G'day,
    Excellent suggestion Andrew. Bet you any money you like it will be ignored. As it is a personal attack, I have responded briefly below.

    By the way, rare Bird, (the boat in the video) has been sold to a Brisbane owner who plans to use it a lot. I am coming over for a sail in December, would love to show you over it if you are around.

    Catty's links are a selective part of a 9 year long argument I have had with Joe Oster and various supporters of his about the merits of pacific proas vs harry proas. Part of my side of the argument was to use quotes from an article Steve Callaghan wrote in Cruising World magazine. The link referred to by Catty is one of many posts Steve wrote to the Yahoo proafile chat group.

    During these posts Steve denied he wrote the quotes, then conceded that he may have done so and finally agreed he had, but accused me of taking them out of context. I agreed to recant all my arguments if he would publish his revised views in Cruising World. He wouldn't.

    Anyone who wants to read the article, let me know (copyright laws don't let me post it publicly) and I will send you a copy. It will put you off cruising a Pacific proa, same as it did everyone else who read it.

    The full argument can be read on the yahoo proa list. If you ignore everything about how wonderful he thinks he is and what a prick he thinks I am, it is quite a short read. Leave them in, it is many times longer than the original article. It ended when Steve offered $2,000 as a wager between a harry and a Pacific proa. I accepted. Steve, Joe and sundry other supporters have not been heard from since.

    The other link Catty refers to is a rant by Joe who trawled through 9 years of posts to the proa forum where he holds the distinction of being the only person to be banned. Not sure what this has to do with proas sailing ability, but Joe includes me as part of the alleged conspiracy against him.

    I have not read all the references (in blue), but have just spent a pleasant couple of hours looking through his link to "first claims about HARRY in 1999". Absolutely fascinating (to me, probably not to many others) bit of history, I will be posting most of it on my web page when I get the time. Most of what i said back then still applies.

    If you read either link, feel free to ask for my side of any of the points made.

    There are a couple of videos on the Pacific proa page as well. These show quite clearly why "jibs at both ends" rigs are a bad idea and how deep v, highly rockered hulls pitch excessively. There is also a nice one of a Pac proa at speed, although no indication of the load, ballast carried or the true wind speed.


    regards,

    Rob

  7. #7
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    I'll take you up on the offer of a look at Rare Bird. Andf hopefully this thread can provide an opportunity for me and many others to better understand proas, of all types and decriptions.

    I'll PM you with a mobile number

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmultis View Post
    Can we please not turn this into a bash Rob Denney site. Indeed Catty can we show more maturity and less desire to pick fights on this board, god knows CF lives on the antagonism driven by a few, how about we live on the positive, critical but positive approach we can bring to a discussion. Nordic asked a question, Rob replied, not unreasonably pointing people to his product. There is simply no need for a fight, - by all means offer up a positive link to further proa discussions, but offering heresay evidence of 3rd parties disagreements with Rob really helps no one. I cant comment on proas - I have never sailed one. What I can do is point out to Nordic that there are a range of views and a range of proa styles and designers.

    Let him draw his own conclusions.

    The proa community strike me as an organism that is in the early stages of development, a teenager in the world of a sailing sub species, there are some pretty strong and robust views on all sides.

    No fight from me OZ just placing a few links on the board so interested parties can make informed decisions and not have to listen to Robs thoughts being passed off as fact. Go ahead ,if you are interested , follow the links and you will learn.

  9. #9
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    No Catty - follow the links and I will get a point of view, which I did, a point of view I neither accept nor reject, thus far its no better or worse for me than Rob's point of view.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the links guys, and Terhohalmes very well presented material, all very informative and understandable.

    I agree with Andrew, let's not get into personal stuff, Robs thinking and his boats seem a pretty neat design to me., and I especially like the unstayed masts.

    What i'm not so keen on are the rudder set-ups used, they look a bit on the light side to me, but I'm a marine engineer originally, so I tend to overdo mechanical stuff if left entirely to my own

    Looking forward to see some Harryproas crossing oceans.

    Alan

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
    Thanks for the links guys, and Terhohalmes very well presented material, all very informative and understandable.

    I agree with Andrew, let's not get into personal stuff, Robs thinking and his boats seem a pretty neat design to me., and I especially like the unstayed masts.

    What i'm not so keen on are the rudder set-ups used, they look a bit on the light side to me, but I'm a marine engineer originally, so I tend to overdo mechanical stuff if left entirely to my own

    Looking forward to see some Harryproas crossing oceans.

    Alan
    G'day,

    Allan,
    If I was willing to accept standard rudders, which don't kick up in a collision, can't be partially raised in shallow water and require a swim to clear plastic bags and ropes from them, the proa rudder problem (rudders which will steer in both directions) was solved 6 years ago.
    The current ones all work well. They will withstand 30 degrees of rudder at 25 knots, with a safety factor of 3, so I am pretty confident about them and their mountings on a 3 tonne boat.

    Oz and catty,
    Instead of trying to divert the discussion to me and my percieved shortcomings, what about discussing the boats? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the boat in the video and your comments on the claims I made about the boats in my 16th October post.

    regards,
    Rob

  12. #12

    Default Rudder design?

    Quote Originally Posted by harryproa View Post
    G'day,

    Allan,
    If I was willing to accept standard rudders, which don't kick up in a collision, can't be partially raised in shallow water and require a swim to clear plastic bags and ropes from them, the proa rudder problem (rudders which will steer in both directions) was solved 6 years ago.
    The current ones all work well. They will withstand 30 degrees of rudder at 25 knots, with a safety factor of 3, so I am pretty confident about them and their mountings on a 3 tonne boat.

    Oz and catty,
    Instead of trying to divert the discussion to me and my perceived shortcomings, what about discussing the boats? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the boat in the video and your comments on the claims I made about the boats in my 16th October post.

    regards,
    Rob
    The problem was solved six years ago ? MMMMM, so why is everybody rebuilding their rudder systems at their own considerable expense? (from memory in the last six years the rudders have gone from the lee hull sides, to tracks, to rotating kick-up, to beam mounts, and just about everything in between.) Instead of "discussing", in the hope of drumming up new business, rob, its time for you to go sailing and substantiate a few of your claims. Proa talk is cheap.

    PS. Have you actually entered a race yet? Surely after 10 years of telling us you will, to prove how blindingly fast your creation is, its time to post the results not the excuses.

  13. #13

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    G'day,

    Who is rebuilding their rudders at their own expense? There are 5 cruising harrys 4 of which have their original rudders, the other is changing his steering system, including the rudders for an improved design, paid for by me. He sailed all last summer with the originals. There are 4 beach harrys sailing, all except one with their original rudders. The other is my test bed, on which I have used all the variations you refer to to see what works and what doesn't. Only the systems that work get used on client's boats.

    I am not drumming up new business, I am answering your posts. I appreciate the opportunities you give me to put things in perspective, and to correct your mistakes, but it gets boring having to repeat the same points on so many forums because you ignore everything I say and refuse to offer up any specific examples. Still, the more people who read it, the more visits there are to the web page to see what we are on about, so it is worth the effort for me. Not sure what you get out of it, though.

    There are some race results on www.harryproa.com Not as many as I want for my personal gratification, but enough to determine that the boats are fast and the principles behind them are sound. My time now is much better spent figuring out better ways to build and sail the boats rather than racing them. As 99% of the interest in harryproas is for cruisers, and most of these are home builds, race results are not as interesting as the video of the crusing boat doing effortless wind speed under working sail.

    Do you agree that for an overloaded 15m/50' cruising boat that cost less than $AUS400,000/$US250,000 ready to cruise, it is doing pretty well?

    regards,

    Rob

  14. #14
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    I looked at the design and appreciate the concept. My worry would be the apparent lack of reserve buoyancy up fwd, and in the you tube it showed the ability to cut through a wave rather than ride over it. Much more comfortable up to a point. However, in the north atlantic bottoming out on a big wave, or even more of a concern in the North sea, with very steep waves, I would worry about the ability to cope
    Insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results

  15. #15
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    How is the reserve buoyancy up fwd in this boat different than in harryproa?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
    I looked at the design and appreciate the concept. My worry would be the apparent lack of reserve buoyancy up fwd, and in the you tube it showed the ability to cut through a wave rather than ride over it. Much more comfortable up to a point. However, in the north atlantic bottoming out on a big wave, or even more of a concern in the North sea, with very steep waves, I would worry about the ability to cope
    G'day,
    The freeboard on the lee hull is much higher than on trimaran floats with the same weight, centre of effort and sail area. The tris would be much shorter, so the lever arm keeping the bow up on the harry is much longer. The prismatic on the harry is also much higher, resulting in more buoyancy forward as well.

    While none of them have crossed the Atlantic, they have surfed some very gnarly bars on the East Coast of Aus where wind against current waves in shallow water are very steep. Control is effortless, speed is high and there was no tendency whatsoever to nose dive.

    Compare the boat in the video with the video at http://www.lebreton-yachts.com/ and see how the narrow bow dives when a gust hits. There is no indication of this on the harry.

    Regards,

    Rob

  17. #17
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    harryproa
    i have allways liked new idears and concepts and admire anyone with the ba**s to bring them to the market.

    this is a quote from your first post:
    1) Low cost and light weight. A harry weighs about half as much as a cat of similar space. Consequently, it is cheaper to build.

    you say that this is a crusing boat so as a crusing cat owner i am always intrested in the other options but there is so little picture or vid footage of the interiors of these boats and most are all in the 50' range i cant see how you are getting as much accomadation as a 50' cat say a prout or privilege
    as you say us crusers are not realy intrested in speed at the loss of living space and comfort or ease of saling.

    or are you realy saying that a 50' harry has the same space as a 30' cat but weighs half as much.
    if this is so thats were it falls down for me!
    majika

  18. #18

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    G'day

    Thanks for the compliment. Comparing different approaches to space is a tad fraught, but the boat in the video (RAre Bird)weighs 3 tonnes, has 2 queen doubles and three singles, table for 6 and sheltered cockpit. Not as much as the Prout and the Privilege, but I suspect they weigh a bit more than 6 tonnes. Rare Bird was built as a one off for $aus400,000/$US250,000 which I suspect is a little less than the cats.

    A better comparison point for the 50' cats would be the 60' charter proa which has 4 queen size bunks (2 of them island type) each in a seperate cabin with ensuite shower and toilet. Weighs about (not built yet) 7 tonnes with 8 people, their gear, electric motors and full tanks.

    Speed may not be of interest to you, but performance is a big safety feature for sailing boats. The ability to reach harbour before darkness or bad weather is a big asset, as is the ability to sail upwind when you have crab pot lines wrapped around your props. Ease of sailing and comfort are an important part of the harry concept. As you can see in the video, high speed can be a very laid back experience.

    regards,

    Rob
    Last edited by harryproa; 5th November 2008 at 04:42 AM. Reason: changes

  19. #19
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    ok lets say as a crusing sailor you have convinced me on the weight and speed and the build cost, but only if i was getting like for like.can you expand on some of these topics.

    so i have a 37' privilege so please compare against this as its value is around $250,000us
    1) engins and range when there is no wind!
    2) 15knt in 15knt is impresive but how do you do in verry light winds 5knts
    what do you do for light wind sails.
    3)manovering in marinas i would like to see it being docked.
    4)what size would i need to have cmparable space to my boat.
    5) i would like to see some picturs of the interior gally cabins etc.
    6)were i sail we have short seas 2m waves 30knots wind is not uncomon do you have any vid in bad weather?
    majika

  20. #20

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    Gday,
    You are comparing a brand new one off custom build with a second hand production boat, but the answers to your questions are as follows:
    1) Range depends on the fuel carried. The boat in the video has 2 x 20 hp outboards, cruises at 7 knots with one of them. No idea of consumption but it wil be way higher than your diesels.
    2) No light wind sails, although some could be carried if you wanted the hassle. Down to about 6 knots, the boat sails close to wind speed, below this it is very hard to say as the wind speed varies so much. However, it will not sail as fast as you will motor at these wind speeds.
    3) With fore and aft rudders maneuverability is impressive, the boat can move sideways off a jetty if required. Add in both outboards and it will be a lot easier to dock than your boat.
    4) No idea. Which parameters of your boat are you referring to? You would have a lot more space than in your boat with the charter version. We received a quote to build, join and paint the hulls, decks, beams, floors and bulkheads of this boat of $US95,000. This was cheaper than the same companies (Ballotta in Peru) 39' cat to the same stage
    5) So would I. The 3 large (2 x 50', one x 40') boats that have been built are all on the opposite side of the country, or the world to me. Not much I can do about it, I am afraid. However, an advantage of the harry layout is that the space in and on the windward hull is comparatively unstressed, so you can have whatever layout you require.
    6) No bad weather video and not much experience of it. The boats have handled some pretty gnarly seas and some very gnarly bars (in and out) with no problem. I regularly sail my 25' test bed in 30 knots and test it to the limits. I am confident that the large ones will handle storms with aplomb.

    The boats we have designed and built so far have been performance oriented. The owners have not wanted diesels or the other trimmings you get on a production boat. Low cost (for a new boat), excellent performance and the easiest sailing possible were high on their list of requirements. If sailing at windspeed is not as important to you as range under power, then I would alter the design.

    Regards,

    Rob

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