Modifying a Lagoon 380 - Questions

[Catapault]

Few more questions related to the leap into a cruising cat !.

All these refer to doing Mods to a Lagoon 380 between 2001 and 2005 in age (NOT an S2)

The intent here is to understand what is realistically possible (yes will cost money), vs out-to-lunch/are you crazy as a modifications go on a 380.


1. Is it possible / how hard to add a Second Winch to near the helm station on a Lagoon 380. (I.e. like the S2 has). Does the location have enough reinforcing to take the strain.

2. Wild question. Is is possible to modify a 4 cabin version, into a 3 cabin version (i.e. build a forward owners head), (without ripping off the deck / doing a full refit). - Note: This is more so I can answer my wifes question, than any real desire to do this !. I'd prefer to just buy the owners version.

3. Where do you mount a generator on a 380, and more importantly, how hard is it to retrofit one ? (including diesel access, venting exhaust etc.)

4. Dinghy Davits. Is it possible to fit an electric winch to raise / lower the dinghy (and outboard motor for that matter). ?

5. Any pointers on fitting Chain plates / exactly where, to take a Jordan Series Drouge. Given the forces involved can be massive (up to 1/2 the weight of the boat on each), I'd expect this needs some serious work and the correct location, but cant' find any references as to exactly how and where.

6. Anyone tried doing a major refit to the Galley, to re-arrange how it works, and perhaps add any extra counter tops ? (Wife thinking of removing the Seat in front of the Table, and making the Galley a bit more 'L' shaped.

7. Possible to rip the fridge out, and replace with a dual Fridge / Freezer DRAW unit (similar tothat found on a Leopard 38) ?. I expect the cupboard would need to be extended to accommodate this, but there seems to be room.

8. Fitting a hardtop Bimmi and dodger windows, in place of the existing Canvas one on the basic 380's. Any idea on price ? and any major issues in doing so ?


Any thoughts much appreciated !!

Regards

[Barra]

Cant help you with most of these as they are pretty boat construction specific. Some sanity checks for you though (just my opinion)-

3. Ditch the generator idea and go with solar. Lots of room to have enough that you wont ever need a genset (unless you like Air con) and its cheap these days if you shop around.

4. Seems less than ideal as you have 2 lines to deal with. Unless you've got a dodgy back or something Im not sure its a real issue. ie I could probably run mine to our central cockpit winch if it was a hassle but in 3 years ive never bothered.

6. You will get used to whats there. 380 friends have cooked 3 course meals for 8 in their galley... and seated same in the saloon. Big saloon for its size. Actually this goes for alot of the mods you plan - do a season as is then see where you want to spend your boat $s.

[Catapault]

Barra,

Thanks for the tips.

For sure we will spend a season in any boat we buy before doing anything serious to it. This is partially a 'whats possible' question more than anything.

I intend to go full Solar, and possible a wind-gen up the mast (Vertical Wind turbine maybe). I'd actually like to be totally power self sufficient.
However part of the reason for a Genset, is if I'm working from the boat, I may be running quite a bit of computing power. So depends how the power equation works out. Secondly we hate marina's.
Won't be fitting one initially, but I'd like to know its possible.


The Admiral likes the boat (380), but also LOVES the U shaped gally on the Leopard 38, and was wondering if it were possible as a retrofit.
Unfortunately she was also looking at the galley in a Leopard 47 today as well


Regardless, we are pretty much focused on a L380 Owners model currently as the perfect boat for size and price. An Leopard 43/47 is also an option, but a chunk more cash.

Regards

[Barra]

Just let the admiral know that if you go with the L47 then she will likely be cooking for an oft needed extra crew in said galley. I know its not really necessary but in the med at least most of the 47 foot and up cats we saw had extra crew (not guests) on board for whatever reason. Apart from the usual bigger boat issues while underway maybe its because docking in the many small harbours becomes exponentially more tricky.

[Oliver L.]

Hey,

first I would like to point out that my wife and I have so far done about 20,000 ocean miles on our Lagoon 470, and we never had crew - but we increasingly have friends on board who don't want to miss out on joining us for a part of our tour around the world...

Second, as to the JSD attachments,
you can see where we installed ours: The strongest point of the boat is the joint between bridge deck and hull. We drilled through 25 mm solid glass fiber and we installed about a 20 x 10 x 1 cm stainless plate behind it (in the aft cabins, behind the wood panels). I have never used them and will do everything I can to keep it that way - but I towed in another sailboat with problems - a 20 tonner mono, with no problems.

Have fun

Oliver

[Catapault]

Thanks Oliver.

For some reason that image isn't showing up however. Any idea ? (I'm logged in).

[Barra]

Hey,

first I would like to point out that my wife and I have so far done about 20,000 ocean miles on our Lagoon 470, and we never had crew - but we increasingly have friends on board who don't want to miss out on joining us for a part of our tour around the world...


Oliver

Dont mean anything against your boat Oliver ( we all think our boats are the best and fair enough) so dont take it personally, but from my observations in the med from west to east and up the adriatic over 3 years you and your wife are in the minority. Good on you for that but the majority of larger cats Ive seen in this part of the world tend to have extras on board to help them handle it. They also tend to anchor off more or go to the marinas as the town ports are often pretty tight.

[Catapault]

Interesting point.

The perpetual 'what size is the right size boat' problem... Bigger boats may be more room, but also more maintenance, MUCH larger Main / sails to handle, req more room at the dock, yada yada.

But the extra room sure does 'show well' when you look at them alongside, or on the web !.


As much as the Leopard 47's/43's are nice, we are still leaning right at the Lagoon 380 right now, and then renovating anything we feel we MUST have, maybe a year down the road.

I'm not after a floating condo, but if this 2 year cruise project, perhaps becomes a fulltime liveaboard for multiple years, a certain amount of space would be nice !.

I Suspect my ideal size is in the 41-43 foot range, but not much around in that, or it costs a LOT.
Catch 22 !.

Thanks everyone for their comments. All appreciated.

Regards

[Rabbi]

mmm thoughts... My thought is, if you like the 380 just buy it and live on it for a few months. See what you need to change and change it. In my case it would be much less than what you have on your list. Its amazing how humans can adapt to almost anything if they want / need to.

If you find out you like the lifestyle but don't like the boat, you can get ou with reasonable loss.


If you dcide the boat is fine but you really want to change things, anything is possible and the sky is the limit.

But you should be aware that the money spent on modifications won't necessarily be reflected in market value. If you turn a production boat like a 380 into something special you will need a "special buyer" in a couple of years.

That is especially true for layout modifications. A 4 cabin converted to a "special 3 cabin" will likely fetch way less than an original owners version, less than an the cost of the 4 cabin cat plus conversion and possibly even less than an the original 4 cabin cat that you started with. Its easy to burn lots of money.





So..
1. If there is core in that area you have to remove it, or at least make large oversized holes tht are filled with epoxy to avoid core compression. The hull should be strong enough

2. Yes, but you will loose tons of money on that conversion.

3. Front bridgedeck locker, I have also seen one in the cockpit lock and a few under the cockpit settee of the S2

4. Why not, but it may be in the way when moving around / sitting. Electric is not required, manual is good enough, the loads are low compared to hoisting the main. You only need a winch for the dinghy transom with a heavy engine. With good health & maybe a double pruchase no problem doing it without a winch.

5. I have seen something like a large chainplate, with even larger backing plate on the inside. Again if there is core the core needs to be removed or it will compress and flex.

6. Never seen this and would not do it unless you want to burn money

7. Why not, but I don't think they are more battery friendly

8. I think I read somewhere around 9k USD. Maybe ask the factory, the standard hardtop fits the same frame asthe canvas one.

[Catapault]

Rabbi,

Thanks for the considered opinion.

I've dropped several of the more-dumb of these concepts already. (no shock there !).

For sure would live on it for a while before doing anything major, except maybe the Genset. Not for A/C, but for other electric goodies, and IT things.

Re #7, not so much for battery, more usability. We are big fans of Draw /top load Fridge/Freezers from Extensive RV travel and 4WDing. I'd expect boat would be very similar in this regard, for all the same reasons.

Thanks for the tips on the 'core' removal for certain fittings, I'll look into this further when needed, or find an expert in glassing.

Re #3. Interesting putting Genset in cockpit locker. Moves the weight aft at least. Will see.


Appreciate the thoughts.

Regards

[Oliver L.]

Hi Catapault,
no idea why you can't see it - on my computer it shows up no problem.

Barra,
no offense taken - the difference may simply be that we've been at it for a few years full time, and practice makes perfect. That having been said, I am definitely no friend of close quarters, so before I squeeze into a marina I usually anchor out or use a mooring...

In French Polynesia the choice was easy - they basically have no marinas...except for two in Tahiti and two in Raiatea...

Oliver

[Rabbi]

[...]
except maybe the Genset. Not for A/C, but for other electric goodies, and IT things.

If you get a Lagoon with hardtop and add a good sized array of solar panel on top of it plus on the davits you should be good for at least 700-800 Wp.
That will easily run a decent Laptop & monitor off solar & batteries. It will only become a problem if you have a ton of electrical loads (inefficient fridge, freezer, laptop, plenty of toys, 110/220 appliances used too often, watermaker, etc) as it all adds up.

If you take care of your consumption you will do without: one point is using a DC-DC converter for the laptop instead of an inverter plus the standard charger.

If your consumption outruns production by some amphours every day you can easily recharge these missing Ah every couple of days by running one engine for an hour in the morning when batteries can absorb the charge. If you have good alternators and a decent charge regulator for the alternators (sterling for example) that will put in a lot of Ah.

I prefer to make the most of what I have, instead of adding complexities. Lesson learned from my previous boat, which came with too many things installed and needed too much attention.

[...]
Re #3. Interesting putting Genset in cockpit locker. Moves the weight aft at least. Will see.

I'm not saying its a good idea, just that I have seen it done. That one was a very small genset, an italian brand but I can't remember the name. Quality wasn't superb, it was already corroded badly after few years. The soundproof cocoon did not fit into the locker so I suspect it was LOUD.
And it was very akward to get at, so they invented some quick-release to remove it quickly. Which was need even for checking the oil...

[Catapault]

Fair enough Rabbi.

I note the Genset locker on the Lagoon 400 is in the cockpit actually. Interesting change from the bow locker.
I'm certainly thinking on overloading on Solar, and perhaps something wind-driven Up the mast (see MastR post) for dual mode green power.

Time to re-learn marine electrics I think.... (which I did about 20 yrs ago, courtesy of the Grey Funnel Line, Australian version...)


Thanks for the replies everyone. We discovered something that was probably obvious today. Everything we want to do to a Lagoon 380, has already been done to a Lagoon 400 by design....
So looks like the search just shifted models to the L400. And the Admiral LIKES the kitchen on that !

About the only one missing is the hard-points for the JSD, and that isn't rocket science.

[Rabbi]

About the only one missing is the hard-points for the JSD, and that isn't rocket science.

The problem is there just isn't enough real world experience to give you some rule of thumb. Very few cats have strong attachment points, much less used them with a JSD and almost none has made attachment points and used it in a survival storm. So no one really knows how big it needs to be.

And the forces involved are not fully understood and are not baked into valid mathematical models. I guess it never will, as forces depend on the individual boat & sea state parameters. There is a lot of fuzzyness involved so I would just do it the best way I can think of and hope its good enough.

That is a 10mm stainless steel chainplate, about 60cm long and 10cm wide, with a hole big enough for the shackle (no welding, just the plate). That will be placed in the area with the thickest glass to spread the load. In our current boat that would be the outer edge of the bridgedeck topside just before the steps (where deck, hull and steps form a an area consisting of three layers glass). Plus a backing plate of at least the same size on the inside, bedded into some epoxy putty to ensure close contact with the hull.

[Catapault]

Something like this http://www.oceanbrake.com/stainlesssteelat.html


Given the load that a JSD can put on a boat, yes it is a bit more complicated. The 'Rule of Thumb' seems to be, each plate needs to be able to hold 1/2 the fully loaded displacement of the boat.

Or in other words, you should be able to, in theory, hang the boat off a crane by the JSD bridle....

I'll certainly consult an engineer, but there are some definite complexities around shock load, static load, and angle of the pull. (it isn't straight with an 'A' Bridle !')

My main concern, is where to attach to the boat really. Sizing the attachment gear IS a well known engineering activity (Shackles, lines, bolts, splices etc).
Stresses and strains on the boat on the other hand. Not a clue.


Unfortunately, this is one thing that is very hard to test, and frankly, you never actually want to if you can avoid it. The downside is if you do need to, your life may depend on having gotten it right !. Ripping part of the back of the boat off in a storm / following sea would be BAD (tm) !

Regards

[Rabbi]

Something like this http://www.oceanbrake.com/stainlesssteelat.html


Given the load that a JSD can put on a boat, yes it is a bit more complicated. The 'Rule of Thumb' seems to be, each plate needs to be able to hold 1/2 the fully loaded displacement of the boat.

Or in other words, you should be able to, in theory, hang the boat off a crane by the JSD bridle....

I'll certainly consult an engineer, but there are some definite complexities around shock load, static load, and angle of the pull. (it isn't straight with an 'A' Bridle !')

My main concern, is where to attach to the boat really. Sizing the attachment gear IS a well known engineering activity (Shackles, lines, bolts, splices etc).
Stresses and strains on the boat on the other hand. Not a clue.


Unfortunately, this is one thing that is very hard to test, and frankly, you never actually want to if you can avoid it. The downside is if you do need to, your life may depend on having gotten it right !. Ripping part of the back of the boat off in a storm / following sea would be BAD (tm) !

Regards

The 1/2 weight rule of thumb is just that. A rule of thumb. A sleek cat catches much less energy from a pushing waves than a fat one.
And how can we bring the loads safely into the hull? How much glass is needed to do that is something only very few engineers in the world will be able to calculate, and it depends on a particular boat (glass thickness, structure, etc). The engineers that you and I can get hold of will just give a guess, or if they are afraid of liability they won't answer at al.
Same for the attachment gear: its all easy for static loads, but not for the chafe involved.


As you say, its impossible to test without real world survival storms. There are so few survival storms that consequently nobody has the fundamental data required to asses all this and derive a calculations. The drag database is the best source for that data, but even that is just too small to have any statistical meaning.

So all we can do is make it as good as we can and hope for the best!

[Rabbi]

Thanks for the replies everyone. We discovered something that was probably obvious today. Everything we want to do to a Lagoon 380, has already been done to a Lagoon 400 by design....
So looks like the search just shifted models to the L400. And the Admiral LIKES the kitchen on that !

BTW: Good choice. Just more money...

[Catapault]

BTW: Good choice. Just more money...

Yup ! Puts us back 6 months or so on the actual purchase, but likely to end up closer to what we want, and in the same time frame overall.

Just need to do something else for THIS season I suspect.


Still a few things on the 400 I want to look at.
- Addition of considerable solar (and maybe wind) charging power
- MAYBE adding a genset (though now looking to avoid)
- Adding the lockers above the kitchen as seen on a 400 S2. (Looks fairly straightforward for a competent marine cabinet maker).

But thats about !

[Rabbi]

Yup ! Puts us back 6 months or so on the actual purchase, but likely to end up closer to what we want, and in the same time frame overall.

Just need to do something else for THIS season I suspect.


Still a few things on the 400 I want to look at.
- Addition of considerable solar (and maybe wind) charging power
- MAYBE adding a genset (though now looking to avoid)
- Adding the lockers above the kitchen as seen on a 400 S2. (Looks fairly straightforward for a competent marine cabinet maker).

But thats about !

These overhead lockers are really essential if you want decent storage capacities in the galley. Without it, and with 2nd fridge or freezer, there is very little storage (in relation to boat size, its still more than we have now).

These lockers were already available in some pre-S2 boats, but I think it was an option. Or maybe they came with the "Premium" package. Something like that.

[Catapault]

Hey,

first I would like to point out that my wife and I have so far done about 20,000 ocean miles on our Lagoon 470, and we never had crew - but we increasingly have friends on board who don't want to miss out on joining us for a part of our tour around the world...

Second, as to the JSD attachments,
you can see where we installed ours: The strongest point of the boat is the joint between bridge deck and hull. We drilled through 25 mm solid glass fiber and we installed about a 20 x 10 x 1 cm stainless plate behind it (in the aft cabins, behind the wood panels). I have never used them and will do everything I can to keep it that way - but I towed in another sailboat with problems - a 20 tonner mono, with no problems.

Have fun

Oliver

Strangley, the photo now shows up !.

However, I must be blind, but I can't see exactly where your talking about for the JSD attachments in that shot. (not knowing the boat also).
When you have a sec, can you circle the part you are referring to please ?

Regards