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Thread: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

  1. #1

    Default Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Hello and Happy New Year to all,

    Perhaps I should have made this two separate posts but for now I sort what information anyone has to offer on the subjects. I am replacing the two emergency hatches on my 1995 P-45, They appear to be Lewmar, can anyone offer more details about model, size, flange, size?
    I am also going to be replacing the saloon and nacelle windows. I'm sure there are a few people who have completed this project. What material (lexan?), thickness did you use? Any tips for the project; bedding compound, mounting techniques, etc...?

    Thanks,
    Luke
    St. Petersburg, FL

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Hi Luke,
    Get back to work!
    The hatches are probably Goiot. Parts can be had from PlastimoUSA. I put new lenses in 2 years ago. Use the darkest Plexiglass you can find. Do not use Lexan. It will craze. Plexiglass is for UV resistance and the dark tint comes from carbon black additive which helps even more.
    You will probably not be able to remove them because the screws have nuts on the top where you can't get to them unless you take up the floor so you will have to do them in place and on the hard. Also get some Captain Tolleys to seal the frames to the fiberglass. The seals can be replaced with square 12mm neoprene. I also recommend upgrading the handles from plastic to metal, also from Plastimo.
    For the windows, check out our window replacement post for hints at:
    https://sailtortuguita.blogspot.com/...g-windows.html
    https://sailtortuguita.blogspot.com/...g-windows.html
    Cheers, Dave

  3. #3

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Hello Dave,

    Your blog is incredible. Thanks for the tips. I'm going to have to take a good hard look at the hatches because they're in pretty bad shape. The hinges are seized and the dogs don't turn. I'll check out the available parts, and perhaps rebuild everything around the frame if in fact I can not remove the flange.

    On an unrelated topic, I've been meaning to ask you about the helm station. You've made quite a lot of progress around the world, how have you dealt with foul weather during passages? I've always gone with the old Norwegian proverb "there is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes".

    Cheers,
    Luke

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Hi Luke,
    Thanks about the blog. I was unable to get the escape hatches off the frames because the hex bolt (hinge pin) that needs to come out for hatch removal hits the strake. You may have something else than Goiot but probably not. The Goiot hatches have big springs at the hinge. I'm not even sure if Lewmar makes an approved escape hatch but I have seen Lewmars being used as escape hatches on Lagoons.



    I wish I would have done a blog post about the escape hatches. Here is a pic of the frame after I took out the lens and caulk. As you can see, the caulk had failed and water was able to seep through. Not only is this bad on the woodwork, but if it progresses enough in pounding seas, the lens can fall out like it did on Full Monty http://www.svfullmonty.com/2013/02/12/waters-coming-in/

    The pressure of the waves that WILL pound the bridge deck is strong and even leaked in around brand new seals dogged as tight as they can get. I used clear silicon around the inside as a backup. Backups are good. No more leaking now. The weep hole has a clam shell around it. This is great if the waves come from the front. If they come from aft, the clam shells act as an amplifier and water squirts up out of the weep hole.

    I drilled my new weep holes at an angle toward the aft and then tapped the holes for a screw which I leave in unless there is some type of failure that needs me to unscrew them to let the water out. I have not needed to take them out since the silicon caulking.

    As far as the helm, the first thing is to pick your weather. Next, the sun in the tropics is a bigger bother than the rain. The autopilot is your best friend and lets you get away from the helm and into the cockpit. If it's really raining and the cockpit is getting wet, we are able to do just about everything from the navstation as we do at the helm. We have autopilot, plotter, AIS, radio, etc inside.

    Cheers, Dave
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  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Just had a look at your blog. I can see why on the 435/465 they changed to mount more vertically in the hulls (I imagine as a result of failures like yours!). They are definitely Lewmar on the 435 but can't be any more help than that I'm afraid.

  6. #6
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    Apr 2011
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Hi Mike,

    I'm not sure if you are talking about the escape hatches or the windows. Our escape hatches are horizontal. Where did Privilege put them to make them more vertical? Are the 435 series boats not mounted horizontally below the salon floor? I honestly don't remember from when we chartered one 15 years ago.

    The failure mode of my windows was the gelcoat. The sealant worked fine. So fine in fact that it stuck better than the gelcoat/fiberglass bond. It pulled (delaminated) the gelcoat right off the fiberglass. I would caulk over the sealant every 6 months or so but that was a bandaid and it would eventually leak. Usually the water would run under the headliner and get into the bilge but when it rained hard, It dripped on the bed. I was constantly blaming the hatches because that's where it seemed to be coming from.

    These windows are a full 8 feet long and cover the forward cabin and the forward center crew cabin (the garage). I was finding water in the tray below the windows in the garage so that was the last straw and I knew the project needed to be done and if I didn't do it in Australia, there was no telling where I could find the resources further down the road.

    I think this area gets alot of movement. There is torque and twist between the forward crossbar and the mid-beam (where these windows are located). The same stresses do exist between the rear box beam structure (below the traveler) and the mid-beam but the bridgedeck is solid and is able to handle these forces, unlike the forward section nacelle that rely on adhesives and sealant. The upward pull of the forestsay and downward force of the mast compression post also put a big bending moment in this area.

    Our salon windows have no leaks and are fine except for the crazing. I think this is because they are not in a structural part of the boat. I would like to replace them once we get back to the US. In the meantime, "if it's not broke....."

    Cheers, Dave

  7. #7

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Our saloon windows are PMMA, 15mm thick. Privilege had about 1mm of sealant beneath them, so its no wonder they gave up eventually. Aim for 5mm to give enough room for thermal movement.

    Crazing seems to occur if you use sikaflex anywhere near them. The only place we had any crazing was a small patch where they had sikaflexed a noggin to allow them to screw the window frames in *sigh*.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Quote Originally Posted by djdeakyne View Post
    Hi Mike,

    I'm not sure if you are talking about the escape hatches or the windows. Our escape hatches are horizontal. Where did Privilege put them to make them more vertical? Are the 435 series boats not mounted horizontally below the salon floor? I honestly don't remember from when we chartered one 15 years ago.
    Hi Dave... The stbd escape hatch was under the steps going down into the stbd hull. Thinking back that was maybe 60 - 75 degs to the horizontal. The port escape hatch was under the galley and maybe 45 degs to the horizontal. No longer own the boat so memory may be fading. Rickp will know for sure.

    The only window problem I had was the port fwd salon window. That popped out of the seal after a year or two and was replaced under warranty. Original sealant was a Dow Corning product. I'll probably be able to find the details if needed.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    I have the Privilege 'windows' manual - the product they mention is BetaPrim 5404 and BetaMate 7120 for the saloon windows.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    RickP, can you post the window manual to this thread?

    Thanks,
    Luke

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Southern Chesapeake
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    185

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    I have a large Lewmar escape hatch, but my understanding is that they no longer make these because of liability issues.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    This is what they sent me. As I said, my windows were 15mm thick, not 10mm - so maybe that changed over time?

    Let me know if the link doesn't work...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Thanks Rick, Great document to fill the void of knowledge about Privilege manufacturing processes. I think I used 12mm for my forward windows. Dave

  14. #14

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    What also surprised me was no mention of keying the PMMA - and indeed mine weren't, and we pulled the sealant off in great long runs very easily.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    I essentially did the same process. Yes, right, I Scotch Brited everywhere adhesive was applied.
    Also, to avoid future problems, I filled the screw holes from the blocks and pressure bars with cabosil thickened epoxy resin before doing the silicon border. This way, when (more than likely) the silicon leaks and water makes it's way into the rim, there won't be a weep hole letting water ruin the inside wood trim.

    I see no reason to do the 'Serigraphie' boarder around the window. If this is done correctly, you should not be able to see anything through the adhesive anyway.

    And now that you have beautiful new windows, you should protect them with something like 80% UV (Pifertex) screens on the outside.

    Cheers, Dave

  16. #16

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Quote Originally Posted by djdeakyne View Post
    I see no reason to do the 'Serigraphie' boarder around the window. If this is done correctly, you should not be able to see anything through the adhesive anyway.
    Privilege claim that unless you repaint that border every year, the UV will damage the sealant and that was the cause of my leak. There's a grain of truth in that, but they really didn't give the sealant much chance by not keying it and making such a thin layer of it.

  17. #17
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    Apr 2011
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    I agree with you that they are misguided. The Tech Bulletin on the Betamate 7120 says:

    Cold processable, medium viscosity, low modulus adhesive with excellent UV stability attributes. Hmmmm.My feeling is also that black stuff holds up well to UV. Wire ties, caulk, Plexiglass, rubrails, etc.

    Also, Plexiglass has a Thermal Coefficient of .062"/foot/100 degrees. A 4' salon window will grow or shrink 6mm with a 50 degree temp change. Our 8' forward cabin windows would be double that. So the 1mm of adhesive that Privilege put on your windows would definitely have a problem if the edge of the window expanded 3mm in all directions.

    If that's not enough, just thinking that if your failure was between the adhesive and gelcoat vs. the plexiglass, maybe they didn't get all the wax from the mold removed. That's why keying is so important.

    Ya never know!

    Cheers, Dave

  18. #18

    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    RickP,

    Thank you for the document.
    & Thank you everyone for the great discussion, I've learned a lot. I had not considered thermal expansion as such a significant factor. I feel much better prepared to speak with a professional about this project now.

    Thank you,
    Luke

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Privilege claim that unless you repaint that border every year, the UV will damage the sealant and that was the cause of my leak. There's a grain of truth in that, but they really didn't give the sealant much chance by not keying it and making such a thin layer of it.
    Alliaura changed the border colour from Black to Silver soon after my boat P435/23, late 2002, presumably to cut down heat build-up around the edge.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Emergency Hatch's & Salon Windows

    Sorry I'm late to the conversation...

    The escape hatches on my 435 are Goiot. Here is a link for the spare parts.
    http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Hatc...on_Hatch_Parts
    They had seized up so when I had her on the hard I used large amounts of elbow grease and WD40 and finally managed to free them. I had to force them open with so much force I was sure they were going to break, but they didn't and now I keep them free by opening them up once every couple of months. You can also get the replacement seal for them from the above link.

    My deck hatches are Gebo. Here is the link for parts...
    http://www.seateach.com/gebo-standar...0-x-500mm.html

    As far as the windows are concerned, I now consider myself an expert on the Privilege windows! Mine needed replacing completely and we're letting in water. I couldn't afford to buy two complete windows from France so I did a DIY fix. I completely fiberglassed the outside curved edge of both front windows, similar to the faux windows on a sport fishing boat. I then replaced the 4' section of window on each side nearest the mast with 3/4" acrylic. The bend in this piece is very slight so no need for having the acrylic heated and bent. The outside is covered with a phiretex type material so you cannot tell the difference and there is still plenty of light coming in. There are very few products the adhere acrylic so if anyone is interested in a more detailed write-up of how I did it, let me know.
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