New renders

[Nordic]

Here are a few new renders for comment.

There are some details like the rub rail and toe rail that need adjustment, as well as some others.

We are working on a more traditional single mast version as well, as I am well aware that a bi-rig will be a step too far even for the generally more open minded multihull community.


This is a 49 foot performance cruising cat, designed for safe fast passage making with a small crew. 2 comfortable aft cabins and a double forward. One can have a couple more people if you use the settee in the starboard hull, and an extra bunk to port.

3 steering positions: Forward, inside and aft - so you can choose your comfort in all conditions.

Well shaded saloon windows.

Double saloon roof, keeps the saloon cool, enables flush mounting of solar panels, as well as cooling of the underside of the solar panels.

True 360 degree visibility from anywhere on deck.

Nav station, galley and seating designed for easy watch keeping.i.e. you can look out both when standing and seated.



Engine rooms totally separated from living spaces.

Rig is reefable at any angle to the wind. 2 rotating wingmasts - much easier to handle and more "gears" to adjust to prevailing conditions.

WIndage using free standing masts is around 20% lower than on a traditional rig - for the whole boat. For the rig alone it is nearly 70% lower.

4.5 ton load capability from empty boat to DWL.

1 meter bridgedeck clearance (empty)

Daggerboards AND mini keels.

4 lifting points so any crane can lift you out, and stand you on the keels.

No davits, but a built in lifting arch in the targa.

Fully enclosed cockpits for safety.

Dinghy does not hang but sits on aft "deck" .

All tankage is below the sole. Each hull is divided into 9 separate watertight compartments to above the DWL. 3 watertight bulkheads in each hull.

2 escape hatches in each hull.

Hatches in forward bulkhead between living spaces and "forepeak" which can serve as a survival chamber.

Bus based power distribution system.

Full foam/epoxy design using infusion and vacuum bagging.

Performance predictions for half load on a reach are for around 90% TWS, and vary a bit depending on what formulas are used. We have made extensive use of CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) to optimise the underwater lines, and have lowered the drag by a substantial amount (>11%) between 4 and 12 knots.

[catwanted]

beautiful looking boat - sure she will sail well too....
are you going to sell them anytime .........

[Nordic]

beautiful looking boat - sure she will sail well too....
are you going to sell them anytime .........

That is the plan. They will be built by 2Oceans in Capetown.

Thanks for the compliment, anything you don't like?

Alan

[peter.bomberg]

Alan, What is the expected completed cost? And I have some thoughts on various aspects.

1) How far aft does the bimini extend (I would suggest covering the dinghy completely

2) Are you thinking of a variant with out the forward steering positions?

3) Do you have the pro's and cons of the bi rig?

4) Have you thought of a galley down config?

However she does look great and I like a lot about the design

Peter

[Nordic]

Alan, What is the expected completed cost? And I have some thoughts on various aspects.

From 600k€ and up depending on fitout.

How far aft does the bimini extend (I would suggest covering the dinghy completely

It goes back to the Targa, can be full or partial as shown. The targa extends well aft of the rear cockpit seating.

What would be the purpose of extending it to cover the dinghy? It won't prevent waves coming into it.
As the dinghy does not hang on davits, and there is storage for the 15-20 hp outboard under one of the forward hatches, you can just invert the dinghy.

2) Are you thinking of a variant with out the forward steering positions?

No way on this size boat. This is one of the key features of the design. There are plenty of other designs that use this space for a couple of double cabins. This is a comfortable boat for 4-6 people at most with space and load carrying ability for any desired extra equipment within reason, yet will retain great light wind performance.

3) Do you have the pro's and cons of the bi rig?

This is material for a complete thread, but in short:

Cons: Abnormal looks.
Slightly heavier than a single aluminium mast set-up.

Pros: Smaller sails are easier to handle.
Can be reefed at any angle. Not like standard rigs where you need to come into the wind to reef, which can be dangerous in certain conditions.
Safer due to no reliance on stays, toggles etc. One component failure on many boats will bring the rig down.
Flexible masts for added safety - automatic depowering in gusts.
Lower center of effort = lower heeling forces = increased safety.
More efficient rig.
No "sailing at anchor"
Easy to handle loads, no need for massive crossbeam to handle rig loads - so lighter boat that again needs less sail area to perform.
No forebeam required = less weight forward = less pitching
Booms can be let right out for easy downwind sailing.

Then there is the perceived disadvantage of one sail blanketing the other. This also happens with the traditional bermuda rig when the main blankets the forward sail.
On this design the rigs have a relative high aspect ratio (short boom compared to mast height) This cuts down the amount of blanketing, but as the boat is fast, one can overcome this by increasing speed and pulling the relative wind forward, or else trim to let one sail "feed" the other.
Blanketing the leeward sail can also be used to drop speed quickly, as can just letting the masts cock into the wind, so you can reef at your leisure.

4) Have you thought of a galley down config?

Yes, can easily be done on the starboard side, but to be honest, don't understand why one would want to be down there.

With this design, you can cook and keep a good lookout - boat is designed for short handed sailing so cook can also be watchkeeper.

However she does look great and I like a lot about the design

Peter

Thanks

Alan

[peter.bomberg]

Alan, drop me an email at pbx@soundfound.com please, I would like the bimini extended as I would like to add more solar panels, and becasue I want to put in a rig to raise and loser dive gear onto the cockpit floor (lazy yes, safer thought than carrying a full set of doubles a bailout and a deco bottle down the steps, rather you hoist it up, and lower it into the water, then calmly walk down the steps jump in and suit up!

I would like galley down as I am really more looking for a live aboard cruiser but many features you have added appeal to me, my current choice is the Antares 44i.

I like the bi rig and especially like the flexibility! Plus it goes hand in hand with my redundancy concept.

[solarbri]

Peter,
Why do you think that a galley down is required for comfortable live aboard??
Have you ever been down below in rough seas trying to cook? (insert puking smiley face)

[therapy]

Hey Alan,

Looks great.

Remember me saying I built one of those in the 80s? It was 2ft long and made of foam, aluminum tube, fishing line and paper sails.

No high tech stuff like rotating mast and all.

Still a Lotto win for me though.

One question though;

Do not the square ended transoms rob speed as compared to curved ones that come out of the water?

[Nordic]

Hi Therapy,
I hope you are pleased with your boat.

Regarding transoms etc. I have posted some interesting information here:

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65

We did quite a bit of analysis of whether the transom should be submerged or not, and what you see in the pictures is the best compromise IMO, where the transoms are optimized for typical fast cruising speeds, and not up in the high teens.

The shape of the underwater hull at the stern is as all else also a compromise, but I want plenty of load carrying ability for dinghy, crew, gear etc. at the stern.

Too fine a stern offers some disadvantages both for resistance and sea- keeping/sailing.

Alan

[therapy]

Alan,

I read most of that thread in the past and much of it is beyond me for sure.

I notice it has been said that the Gemini is an "old" design. I suppose it is and notice there is a lot of noise and turbulence, especially when the thing gets over 6 knots.

LOL 6 knots in 10-11 true.

I think that is pretty cool as all the monos I have been on can't touch that.

Plus the coffee cups stay put.

LOL.

I have only about 15 or so hours of sailing since I brought it home (dang if I don't still have to work to feed the kids) but now can tell from 5>6>7 without looking at the speedo.

LOL.

[peter.bomberg]

solarbri, I actually have (I happen not to get sea sick in almost anything (yet) I grew up on the north sea! But it's a question of counter space and storage space and you simply have more in a galley down config!

[Nordic]

With the galley as shown on the "inside pictures" thread, you will have more than enough storage space. The idea with this galley up is that 2 or even 3 people can work at the same time if required, 1 inside and 2 outside...

A galley down will offer slighltly more space on this boat, but not be as flexible in use, as 2 people will be getting in each others way.

Nearly anything is doable as long as it is within the confines of the fixed bulkheads.

Alan

[Nordic]

Fixed biminis seem to be the rage at the moment, the renders show a hybrid, partially fixed and partially flexible to offer shade when required. This system can also be used to collect rainwater.

With abi-rig, you don't need to walk out there

Would a fixed bimini be an advantage to offer even more solar panels?

Alan

[IreAneY]

Hybrid is the best solution, best of boath worlds, my only choice
No need for other replies my decision is final.

[KGP]

http://www.dtyd.co.za/087.html

[dmmbruce]

Nordic, please can you explain something that may be very elementary for you but I can't work it out.

If you have unstayed, and rotating flexible masts, where and how do you put things that are usually attached to the mast. For example, steaming lights, masthead lights, wind speed, deck lights, courtesy flags and burgees.

Sorry if I am being silly, but I'm interested.

Thanks, Mike

[FSMike]

Nordic -

Gorgeous boat. A couple of thoughts -

1) Double saloon roof. Since this cools the bottom of the solar panels, is it open to the outside? If that's the case one month at our dock in springtime and you would have enough spiders and dirt daubers to conduct a scientific experiment, and it would probably be difficult to clean.

2) A lot of people are adamant about galley up. I have visions of these folks going ashore and cooking in their living rooms. At least with galley down nobody can see you drop that piece of chicken on the floor.

3) We've got two keels and one daggerboard which runs vertically through the middle of one keel. Works great on a non-heeling boat, tears up the cabin space in only one hull, and has less moving parts to manufacture or maintain.

4) I too am interested in how you approach the problem of masthead tricolors etc. on a rotating mast. Also, in this case, which mast?

5) How do you rig the halyards and reefing lines on a rotating mast? Does this necessitate going to the mast to hoist/reef/furl or is there some way to lead them to the cockpit without partially wrapping them around the masts when they're rotated? Have you made provision to be able to fix the mast in whatever position desired or does it stay free to rotate? How many degrees is it possible to rotate? Last but not least, what is the sail area of the wing masts? When you are calculating the lesser windage on a freestanding rig are you ignoring that sail area by assuming that the wing is free to weathercock into the wind? The wing mast sail area would be important should you get into a situation requiring bare poles.

It probably comes as no surprise that I'm a bit dubious about rotating wing masts on cruising boats. Aside from that, she's definitely a seaworthy looking boat.

Thanks,
Mike