Multihulls4us Forums  

Go Back   Multihulls4us Forums > Multihull Sailing Forum

Multihull Sailing Forum Discuss any topic relating to multihull sailing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 1st September 2009, 07:50 AM
lhsmith lhsmith is offline
Boat: Leopard 43 "Harmonia"
Catman Wannabe
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 318
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
I believe that the electric motor part of the hybrid is now a proven technology. I have no concerns about that, and actually recognise significant advantages. (hi torque at low speeds, engine alignment etc)

However, the power for the engine is not ready. We need different battery technology...
I am unconvinced that a large battery bank has to be part of the solution.
-- Electric power storage (batteries) seems like a good idea so that the generator can be run at either max power or shut down, but that presumes there aren't any smart load-balancing alternatives, particularly given that there are other electrical demands and electricity sources on board.
-- At present, a large battery bank contains a lot less power than an equivalent weight of diesel fuel. Using this measure, battery technology has a long way to go.

I think the present competitors are 2 diesel engines+saildrives versus a single diesel generator+2 electric motors+prop units. If they use close to the same amount of diesel fuel and produce similar propulsion, and the electric system weighs less, takes less space, and is easier to maintain, I suspect we will see more diesel electric boats. They may be less reliable than a 2-diesel system, but when that difference is actually quantified, it may be insignificant to most cruisers, particularly if diesel-electric maintenance is simpler/cheaper. After all, it is supposed to be the auxiliary propulsion system.

Last edited by lhsmith; 1st September 2009 at 07:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 1st September 2009, 09:35 AM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I see. I really like the idea of not using the diesels except in dire need. I think that between a wind generator (or 2), and solar panels, one shouldn't need to "charge" the batteries very often. That being said, a hybrid engine that generated power while under sail, would be really nice, provided they worked! I'm working on a way to jam my scuba cylinders with the sun/wind. Possibly even incorporating a recumbant bike to turn the flywheel. I intend to spend as much time as possible UNDER my boat, therefore, if I can cut the dependence of a diesel engine to jam tanks, that would greatly add to my independence. I'm very impressed with my 2nd generation Prius, I'm not sure what the 3rd gen has done differently, but mine works great! I think we are right around the corner from seeing a feasible solution. Wouldn't it be awesome to circumnavigate in silence?! (Well, with only the roar of Jimmy Buffett in the background)
I have read your story, and know your a man that likes things simple and uncomplicated. I understand that concept only too well. I'm just hopeful that real soon we will have a solution to the bugs that plague the hybrid concept. Two hybrid engines on a cat would be really sweet! IF THEY WERE DEPENDABLE! Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 1st September 2009, 11:34 AM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default More on the hybrids

I found this site while searching the web. I wonder how these would work in a 900? www.marine-hybrid.co.uk The Yanmar Saildrive really looks sweet, I wonder if it works? It seems these hit the market in canal boats last year. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of how well they are or are not working? Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 1st September 2009, 11:47 AM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Of the two types out there, the parallel, and series, (same as batteries, I guess) I think the series is how the Toyota Prius is set up. I think it is way too complicated for the marine enviroment. The parallel system though seems like the way to go, especially with the regeneration from the saildrives. Between sail power, wind gen, and solar panels, a boat would have plenty of electrical power, and if it was used up, 3 different means of recharging! This system has the best efficiency compared to a straight diesel (less power loss due to added friction, etc) and although the batteries may weigh more than a comparable amount of diesel, they can be recycled and continue to produce energy long after the tanks run dry. I have contacted the manufacturer and asked for pricing and additional information. Is there anyone out there that has actually seen these things work? Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 1st September 2009, 11:58 AM
Talbot's Avatar
Talbot Talbot is offline
Boat: Privilege 37
Knowledgable Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 2,792
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhsmith View Post
I think the present competitors are 2 diesel engines+saildrives versus a single diesel generator+2 electric motors+prop units. If they use close to the same amount of diesel fuel and produce similar propulsion, and the electric system weighs less, takes less space, and is easier to maintain, I suspect we will see more diesel electric boats. They may be less reliable than a 2-diesel system, but when that difference is actually quantified, it may be insignificant to most cruisers, particularly if diesel-electric maintenance is simpler/cheaper. After all, it is supposed to be the auxiliary propulsion system.
The part of my post that you cut out showed clearly that I rejected standard battery technology, and re-generation of those. I cant ever see that this is going to work. Diesel engine direct to propellor will also always be more efficient than diesel engine to generator to electric motor to propellor.

However, the hyrogen fuel cell gets around that problem. furthermore, you dont need a generator for any power requirements as you can drive it from a combination of fuel cells. This Should be lighter weight as well, but this is dependent on a decent technology to crack the hydrogen from diesel.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 1st September 2009, 12:21 PM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I too am not convinced that a generator powering two electric motors is a safe alternative yet, and I don't think aside from being lighter, there is an advantage to going that route. You always loose a certain amount of energy due to friction, and it is less economical than a straight diesel. That was what Lagoon tried to sell us 5 years ago that didn't work, wasn't it?
What I like is the diesel engine with a generator ring in place of the flywheel, attached to the saildrive. This built in generator is wired to the battery bank via a controller. The controller also controls the solar and wind generators feeding the battery bank. You can ALWAYS run the diesel engine straight to the saildrive with very minimal loss of proficiency. The charged batteries can be used to turn the generator attached to the saildrives to push the boat without using the diesel engine. When the boat is being driven by the sails, the spinning saildrives via the generator recharge the batteries! I think this is an awesome IDEA, does it work, and is it dependable? Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 1st September 2009, 12:37 PM
2hulls 2hulls is online now
Boat: Catana 471 hull 44
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
Posts: 1,459
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
However, the hyrogen fuel cell gets around that problem. furthermore, you dont need a generator for any power requirements as you can drive it from a combination of fuel cells. This Should be lighter weight as well, but this is dependent on a decent technology to crack the hydrogen from diesel.
Taking some of the luster off H2 fuel cells, many folks do not appreciate how much energy it takes to isolate H2 from the source compound. If that energy source is a chemical reaction, e.g., oxidizing something, the overall green "cost" in energy use is staggering.

2 Hulls Dave
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 1st September 2009, 07:49 PM
Sandy Daugherty Sandy Daugherty is offline
Boat: PDQ 36 catamaran "Page 83" 2001 Atlantic 42 "Siesta"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 707
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

We don't use all the power our sails generate: we reef a lot, sometimes just to be more comfortable at a slower speed. Some of that energy could be stored if our electric motors regenerated electricity the way hybrid autos do. That requires batteries, but can be done (according to Nigel Calder) without gaining weight over a typical twin diesel installation.
A shaft drive is better suited to this purpose because the reduction gearing in a saildrive increases the effort to start the rotation. A redesigned self feathering prop would also be more efficient. The diesel engine side of the equation can offer greater economy over a conventional propellertwister in that it will run only at an optimal setting for power generation, not at some slower, less efficient rpm when less power and fuel burn is required.

What remains to be developed are bullet-proof, light weight, high capacity batteries. When they come, the concept will be complete: The complicated controls will be solid state with emergency get-home settings, the wiring will be high voltage (small diameter) cables, and the motors will be hidden away and untouched for years. We will have tough, walk-on 200 watt solar panels and wind generators like children: seen and not heard.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 1st September 2009, 08:49 PM
Southern Star Southern Star is offline
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Belleville, Ontario, Canada; Playa Zaragoza, Isla de Margarita.
Posts: 636
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I am with Dave/Maxing Out on this one (and thank him for a great and accurate 'line'): we are already using a 'hybrid' drive system. Considering present technology, I too would rather keep it simple. I am able to bleed my diesel, replace injectors, filters, starter motors, etc. My concern is that any of these new hybrid electrical systems are going to be far beyond my capabilities in terms of trouble-shooting and maintenance.

I also consider the difficulty in meeting my present power requirements (and the weight of my present battery banks) and can only imagine what would be required to replace the efficacy of even one of my diesels with electrical power. There are already generators/alternators that can be run off the prop shaft, but I cannot imagine that they would begin to meet these power needs at anything except very high boat speeds. This, of course, is to say nothing of the weight of the battery bank that would be required to store the energy from long passages.

Brad
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 1st September 2009, 08:55 PM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Dave,
Did you not see my earlier blog about the 5th grade "electrolysis" experiment? It only took a size "D" battery and 10 minutes to make a "boom"! Can you imagine "harnessing" the trickle currents in a marina? Instead of eating away your sacrificial zinc, they could be selling Hydrogen!
I know absolutely nothing about the Hydrogen technology, but it doesn't take a 6th grader to know how to make it (cheaply). Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 1st September 2009, 10:22 PM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Brad,
What I'm looking at is the diesel engine with the generator attached where the flywheel would be, coupled to a sail drive. The direct diesel driven propellers are still there, the added benefit, I guess is having the generator on the shaft, so it could both provide propulsion, and charging the battery bank while underway. Having a generator on the side (like most conventional boats), limits it's use to only being able to produce electricity by burning fuel. I know everyone is trying to come up with this "magic bullet" that solves the most problems, and most of them, if not all, don't work! I'm wanting to know if this inline system is proven, and works?
To me, it seems like a good idea. The wind generator charges the battery bank, exactly the same way as the turning prop would while underway? I'm just wondering if anyone out there has actually used one of these set ups, and does it work as well as the hype behind it? Capt. Terry

Last edited by Capt. Terry; 2nd September 2009 at 12:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 4th September 2009, 01:34 AM
expat expat is offline
Boat: Lightwave L35 - "Heatwave"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 49
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I'm sure there is a reason this is not practical or undesirable in some manner, but what about a Hybrid / Hybrid.


What are we looking for:
  • Dual engines – Redundancy, Safety, Speed, Manoeuvring, etc.
  • Auxiliary power – Desalinator, Hot Water, Air Conditioning, etc.
Solution:
  • Keep a single diesel sail-drive / shaft-drive in one hull
  • Install ultra quiet diesel auxiliary generator and electric motor in other hull
Lots of additional you could add around this basic concept – solar panels, wind gen, re-gen, additional batteries etc.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 4th September 2009, 06:39 AM
Talbot's Avatar
Talbot Talbot is offline
Boat: Privilege 37
Knowledgable Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 2,792
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
  • Keep a single diesel sail-drive / shaft-drive in one hull
  • Install ultra quiet diesel auxiliary generator and electric motor in other hull
The only drawback I see here is that the generator you use for the second engine is going to be too big to realistically use in an anchorage for AC, dive compressor or whatever.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 4th September 2009, 02:38 PM
Hyprdrv Hyprdrv is offline
Boat: 2004 Electric Lagoon 410
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Centreville, VA
Posts: 111
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I have a Hybrid system and can attest that it works.

My 2004 Lagoon 410, ďElectra GlideĒ has the Solomons electric motor system with a 144v battery bank. I can motor off the dock, sail all day and motor back to the dock with my batteries being charged by the props. If I need more power than the batteries can provide then I have a standby Genset that can provide the juice such as at an anchorage.
Now itís not to say that I havenít had some issues, more from lack of support than anything else from manufacturers and several ďOwner IgnoranceĒ issues due to on the fly training but as these are eliminated and I get more familiar with the Cat we are starting to get some procedures taken care of. More on that in a minute. We have owned the boat for only 6 months so the learning curve has been high, add the fact that this is our first boat and we are new to sailing and the plate is full. So first some background.

Cindy and I have always loved the water and sailing is something I did in my youth. When she came to me about a summer home I suggested the Catamaran and the rest was history. We looked at a few 38ís that I thought would have been perfect but she had the final say and we ended up with the 410. As a side note (now I know why) Docking this beast the first few times was intimidating however practice makes for less damage so we are much more comfortable at it know then 6 months ago. Our first trip up from the ICW in April, 8 miles in from Norfolk where we bought the boat, up to Solomons was interesting to say the least. The ICW required us to run on the motors so we learned real quick about overpowering them and running the batteries low. The previous owner had given us some brief instructions but not enough to understand the timing of running the genset or what a little green button at the helm ment. Once in the open waters of the bay the sailing began and we were in heaven. The batteries were charged by the props and we had a breeze at our backs, sunny skys, and following seas. Life was good. We stayed in an anchorage just south of the Potomac River for the night and enjoyed a good nights sleep. The next morning things had changed. Wind on the nose, 30 knots gusting to 40, and steep chop. We had done close to 90 miles the previous day with 30 miles to go which ended up taking over 12 hours in some of the worst weather on the bay according to locals you could run into short of a hurricane. We saw 2 other sailboats and a tanker all day, 1 sailboat had its main rapped around the mast heading back in and the second one ran out for a few miles then back in. At 10pm we were at the dock and wiped but smiles on our faces and the boat handled like it was made for it. A great confidence builder and something we wouldnít plan on doing again anytime soon. The system worked.

EG is powered by 2 ď72Ē Solomons drives which is in fact 4 motors. Each side has 2 motors that are linked together and controlled by a motor controller for each (total of 4). This in fact has the redundancy to run Ĺ a motor on one side which I did for about 2 weekends with no adverse effect on the system at roughly no lose of speed. You see the motors are actually rated at Ĺ there capacity yet are capable of 3 times there amp draw. Typically I run at 20A per side at 6 knots with the capability to run at 30A at 8 knots. The motors are rated to 50A each and can actually be run to 100A each so there is a lot of potential there. The limiting factor is the batteries and the Genset. The batteries are a 12 bank of AGMís (Northstar) which are good for about 3 to 4 hours depending on your draw. Normally I do not exceed the 50% rule but did on one occasion do to Owner ignorance. With 18Ē props the tork is fantastic and we can get to speed QUICK!. The Genset is another story. The HFL Genset from Germany was a mistake and one I will correct once the coffers are replenished. Itís undersized, max amperage is 80A output and totally manually controlled. Itís a 120v A/C with a rectifier? To 144V D/C. You manually start it, set the voltage output, and shut it down so requires you to monitor the battery state of charge and run/shutoff the genset.

The batteries provide juice for everything with 3 additional batteries used for (2)house system and (1) genset start. I have a 6 KW inverter 144v to 120v, a 144v to 12v converter/charger and a Brusa (state of the art and a replacement/upgrade from the previous owner) charger for the batteries. I also have a small portable charger/starter I can plug into the 120v inverter to start the genset in case the starter battery goes bad.

The batteries run the motors.
The Genset can run the engines by itself.
Thereís actually have 4 motors and I can run on 1.(72ís)
No matter what I can still sail.

ISSUES
The Genset.
The genset is a 16KW and I need a 22KW. The Genset works fine other than itís fully manual and isnít large enough to fully use all the potential of the motors or the battery charger. The fact that itís A/C, uses a rectifier, and not a D/C set just ads some complexity that isnít needed on this boat. The Manual run setup is not for me, I want to be able to concentrate on sailing not gauge watching. The other issue is that a Seimans controller was installed which is used to reset the main Genset breaker remotely, a complicated and unnecessary added complexity to the system. Which leads me toÖ

Controls
Iíve mentioned on several other posts and sites that the biggest problem I see at this time was the lack of proper monitoring of the batteries and as mentioned the Genset. The battery monitoring consists of 2 Emeters to monitor the engine usage in Amps and a Link-10 which I find almost useless not only because it only shows totals but the Ah indication hasnít ever been correct. There way to small at the helm and require shading or reading from a distance of inches. At this time itís not working properly at all so Iím left with the main Voltage gauge and an A/C amp gauge. What I want and am working on is an individual voltage system that will monitor each battery separately with a bar graph display. Iím also going to try and integrate it into the Simrad GPS system monitor screen as an additional display and capable of displaying as a part screen. This will give me the information as to each batteries state of charge/discharge and if Iím running into a problem with one battery that could pull down the rest.

No wiring diagrams!
Seems like no one decided to document any of the original boats or the upgrades on my boat. Anything this wiring complicated requires a working set of drawings to go by and I am in the process of creating a set (be it slowwww) of the wiring on board in CAD.

From talking to several other Lagoon owners about the newer 420 and what I have read the issues with them has been a program problem with the controllers. I have also read that the 420 doesnít sail as well with the new hull design but the owners havenít mentioned this. I prefer the 410ís layout and setup myself and at a recent meet it appears that potential owners were impressed with the 410ís size and accommodations. In a nutshell Cindy and I are pleased with our decision.

You donít buy an Electric boat to travel the world AT THIS TIME. We plan on sailing the Chesapeake for a few years and then venture up and down the East Coast with hopes of the Caribbean at a future date. The Support and parts are not readily available in 1st world countries let alone 2nd or 3rd. More so the support. When Lagoon went with Solomons it was with the Solomons owner Dave Tether supporting the development of Electric Catamarans fully. Tether has left and is know running a new company developing another system (basically the same) using a different engine and genset. By the way I had Dave Tether and Nigel Calder on board a few months back along with the new manufacturer of his motors. They were impressed with the upgrades and systems and even tested my batteries (they were good!) I wish I had had more time to pick there brains but they were on a tight schedule. Calder is now working with Tetherís company E-Motion. You may have also heard of the law suite between Toyota and Solomons Motors for patent infringement. So the Prius reference comes full circle. It seams the technology for the Solomons motor has been used on several projects like the Mars Landers as well.

Donít get me wrong, the systems require attention but in general I believe the maintenance of the Electric System is much lower than a standard motored boat. I know my engine room is cleaner. The maintenance is different like tightening bolts on batteries and checking voltages. If I get 5 years out of the AGMís and they develop a newer battery with twice the power at Ĺ the weight by the time they need to be replaced I will be very happy.


I guess to sum it up we are happy with the system the way we use it. Day sailing with overnighters and plans to cruise the East Coast once we are comfortable with the boat in general. By the way as I mentioned I'm located in Solomons at Calvert Marina on a "T" you can't miss us, We're the ones with smiles on our faces and watching the sun set.

Steve in Solomons "Electra Glide"
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 4th September 2009, 03:19 PM
Talbot's Avatar
Talbot Talbot is offline
Boat: Privilege 37
Knowledgable Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 2,792
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Very interesting Steve, and very welcome, where not many of us have any experience in a cat of these engines.

I am glad that your conclusion about these engines based on empirical observation is similar to mine based on theoretical extrapolation.

How much heavier will the new Genset be, and will the increase in power also increase noise, vibration and fuel consumption?
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 4th September 2009, 03:59 PM
Hyprdrv Hyprdrv is offline
Boat: 2004 Electric Lagoon 410
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Centreville, VA
Posts: 111
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Talbot,
Thanks, Im trying to be as honest as possible on this subject. There are a number of people who will contnue to say "it just can't work" but didn't they say that about bumble bees? I believe that for most it becomes an issue of hassle and being overwelmed by the possible complexity but break it down to components and all you have is a bunch of components.

As to the genset the size for a new 22kw is about the same, slightly smaller, the noise levels I haven't been able to get a grasp from eather manufacturer, and the weight is lighter. Go figure. Technology is moving forward and this component is getting better all the time Tether is using this custom one from Polar Marine. http://www.electricmarinepropulsion....Generator.html

The HFL is bullet proof with a Kabota 4 cyl. and will be sold to offset the cost of the new Genset. As a straight Genset it's fine with 800 hrs over 5 years, barely broken in (also another testiment to the lack of need for it with the regen setup). Just no automation for it.

Steve in Solomons "Electra Glide"
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 4th September 2009, 07:07 PM
Sandy Daugherty Sandy Daugherty is offline
Boat: PDQ 36 catamaran "Page 83" 2001 Atlantic 42 "Siesta"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 707
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I had the chance to sail the Conser 47 equipped with Solomons Technologies motors they brough to the Annapolis show several years ago.

What this discussion is missing is the shear delight there is in maneuvering a big cat with a couple of butter-smooth levers little longer than my thumbs. They let me bring the cat back into its slip during demo days, and I was cold-chill-thrilled with control it gave me, no gear-crashing, no pause in meutral for the trannies to get their guts in order, no big smoky wind up for power when you need it, just smoothe immediate response. I learned that with smart controllers, I could set a speed of say 7 knots while power-sailing, and the motors would smoothly kick in when the wind produced less than that, and would go into charging mode when the wind provided more speed. I is entirely possible to come into a destination with a higher state of charge than you had at the beginning of the trip, without running the generator! Think about that!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 4th September 2009, 08:34 PM
Talbot's Avatar
Talbot Talbot is offline
Boat: Privilege 37
Knowledgable Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Posts: 2,792
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

I like the concept of electric motors.

I like those doing coastal cruising to validate and iron out the snags

I dont like the very complex technology required. It does not fit with my needs for technology that I can fix with my own hands in essential items. And the re-generation is a particularly complex add-on that I believe is dragging the cost up.

I really do not like the very heavy batteries - these are the achilles heel of this technology.

I would remind people of the initial reaction to roller reefing genoas for cruising. Very few die hards left with hank-ons.

I suspect that roller-booms for mainsails will eventually be totally accepted - but the price needs to fall significantly.

I bet people hated electric windlasses - until they had one!

The same reaction for electric winches!

Electric winches and roller booms are definitely on my wish list, electric motors - not this decade.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 9th September 2009, 02:09 PM
Hyprdrv Hyprdrv is offline
Boat: 2004 Electric Lagoon 410
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Centreville, VA
Posts: 111
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

A few years back I became interested in electric cars. I started to read about them and was seriously thinking of doing a conversion to a true electric vehicle. I didn't like the idea of a "Hybrid" and felt that the auto industry was just building something as a "gap" vehicle to sell the public. So what do I do? I buy a hybrid boat with some major differences. The main propulsion for EG is the sails not the motors or batteries. The motors are auxiliary and used only for runs in and out as well as some motor sailing. Maybe I haven't been sailing long enough or far enough to understand what the issue is with the "it doesn't work" crowd. I agree that the system isn't ready for the long range cruiser but how many people is that made up of? The majority of owners are weekend sailors and this system will work for them all day long.
Yes the biggest issue is the cost of the system. I would guess that the typical cost for a conversion would be in the $30k to $40k range off the shelf system but that's for a conversion. I bought EG with the complete system with a lot of upgrades for the cost of the boat alone and the appraised price was way above the purchase price. Look at it that way, would you have bought a hybrid if the cost was the same as a conventional boat? The boat came over the Atlantic, the previous owner spent 2 years in the Islands, then has spent the last 3 years in the Chesapeake bay area. The system has shown it works but with any new technology has some room for improvements. This doesn't mean I can't go sailing or do anything you guys can't already do, I just want to do it better.
Someone mentioned that it's environmentally the thing to do. Ok but I want it for free energy. I want to run all day without using fuel other than the free stuff. Yes I have to run the diesel genset once a weekend to exercise it and on occasion run it with a head wind. So what? Does that mean I'm not ahead of the game? I filled the tanks up in March. I have over 3/4 tank of fuel this weekend. Not bad in my book.
The system is way to complicated. Well that's left open for interpretation. My wife thinks changing a car tire is way to complicated. I think a sawing machine is way to complicated. I read someone saying changing the oil is way to complicated. Maybe I haven't reached my limits yet as to what is complicated but as far as I'm concerned if they made a manual with a troubleshooting section then it can be fixed. Now if I have a problem with the Brusa charger that the software program is written in German I might ask for help but isn't that what we are offering here? It is discouraging to read, and probably why a lot of other owners of Hybrids don't get into the discussions, people saying it doesn't work or it's to complicated. Thank God that the Wright Brothers and Bumble Bees continued on. Don't get me wrong, I don't like being the Guinea pig either but I really didn't look at it that way. I even said to Cindy that we could always convert EG back to diesel at this price and sell off the hardware for more than the cost of a couple engines. But the plus side of this system still out weights the negative. Don't look at the system negativly from the system side. Do look at it negativly from the cost side. I don't think I would pay for the cost of a conversion unless the prices fell which they will soon enough. O well I've ranted enough. My biggest problem at this time is figuring out how I can flush out the water cooled freezer compressors without completely taking it apart. Seems like the PO didn't know about this strainer and it was clogged solid. And one other thing. I was coming in on Saturday, doused the main when a mono was on my aft quarter. the Captain yells "Is that a Hybrid?" I answered "Yes Sir!" He responds ""Way to cool!" I smiled.

Steve in Solomons
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10th September 2009, 05:24 AM
Capt. Terry's Avatar
Capt. Terry Capt. Terry is offline
Boat: 1996 Catalac 900 "GAHITHA"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Island living on the Outer Banks
Posts: 350
Default Re: Hybrid Engines

Steve,
I'm glad you got on here and told everyone about your boat. I saw a Lagoon Hybrid in Ft. Lauderdale a few years ago, and it was in need of repairs. I loved the "concept" and I look forward to someday having a totally green machine myself! www.enerteksoultions.com has a lithium ion battery pack that is incredible! It costs $35,000.00, but at 130 lbs, and a 10 year lifespan, it is getting a little more feasible. The builder told me the military was using them to power subs, boats, and all the electronics to include a 7hp electric compressor running the air conditioners! They are rated at 3000 cycles! He told me that they can be made in any voltage by just changing a circuit board. I'm hoping that in 4 years, the saildrives and hybrid engines will have the bugs worked out. I'm closely following the Yanmar and Steyr companies. Do you have a website for the engines in your vessel? What about finding out what the guy that actually built them is working on? Capt. Terry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS
copyright@PB Consulting 2008