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Old 16th October 2009, 05:00 AM
2MT 2MT is offline
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Default junk rig general discussion

since i dont want to drift another's thread i thought this would be a good place to start this sort of discussion.

I like my pros and cons lists so here they are.

Cons:
Heavy?
not as fast?
wont point as high?
not as easy to trim?
hard to set up.
steep learning curve.

Pros:
easy to use.
unstayed mast.
easy to make.
easy to fix.
gybes safely.
does not shred from a hole or two.
easy to reef.
very powerfull.
force stays low in the sail.
Will self tac.

the question marks denote things i have not observed and have not heard about from those who sail with them regularly.

so lets hear your experiences or the rumors you hear about this rig.
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Old 16th October 2009, 05:15 AM
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Default Some links regarding junk rigging catamarans

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Originally Posted by 2MT View Post
Bigcat i started a junk rig thread so we dont drift the storm thread.
I admit I was having guilty thoughts about my role in thread drift. Probably won't have a lot of takers for discussing the junk rig on this BBS. Yesterday I came across a couple of YouTube videos, one a junk biplane catamaran, and one a wingsail / junk rig catamaran hybrid. I posted them on the links section of my site. You can make a junk rig weatherly if you give it camber. Below is some cut and paste from my site:

Junk Tandem Catamaran links

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/...ulls/index.cfm

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=54225

wharrambuilders.ning.com/group/junkrigged

Bertrand Fercot's catamaran PHA, with his new modifications to the rig. Bertrand and I have been corresponding. He has recently modified his Swing Wing rig to make the sleeve portion of the sail more efficient. See a clip of Bertrand's Pha under sail on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m25fB...eature=related

Another YouTube video of a junk biplane catamaran, also a Wharram, sailing under a German flag. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQNBImQ1L98

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkri...20Junk%20Sail/ Arne Kverneland's article on putting camber in the junk rig to make it more weatherly. He is a pioneer in this area.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ The junk rig user's group on Yahoo. This group has an archive of thousands of posts.

Hey, I just saw that Bertrand put up another big site about his biplane rigged wing / junk hybrid catamaran:

http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/prof...tiki-30-n119-1
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Last edited by BigCat; 16th October 2009 at 05:25 AM.
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  #3  
Old 16th October 2009, 06:02 AM
cchesley cchesley is offline
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

I'm actually quite keen on a junk rigged, biplane catamaran. Off wind sailing without chafe on shrouds is a strong motivator. (i.e. unstayed mast is something I've identified as a strong priority.)

Free standing rigs lead naturally to discussions of mast bury and the logic of mounting them in each (or one?) hull.

Another motivator is a desire to not be dependent on many parts or parts that can't be easily replaced/rebuilt/fabricated when a long way from a parts supplier.

Any additional videos and info will be appreciated. Also, I've been wondering what the maximum size might be for a balanced lug type rig with a number of full length battens. In this case not trying for a pure junk rig with it's attendant sheetlets and simple reefing but perhaps retaining a bit more (perceived?) weatherliness at some expense of simple reefing but with simpler sheeting. I would want some sort of means for managing the yard better than having it just flop down while being hoisted/lowered. Perhaps a form of fixed topping lift connected to the halyard and a higher masthead to keep the yard at a generally constant angle while hoisting.

I guess what I'm asking is can a balanced lug outperform a straight junk rig and up to what size can it be made 'relatively' easy to handle?
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Old 16th October 2009, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by cchesley View Post
I'm actually quite keen on a junk rigged, biplane catamaran. Off wind sailing without chafe on shrouds is a strong motivator. (i.e. unstayed mast is something I've identified as a strong priority.)

Free standing rigs lead naturally to discussions of mast bury and the logic of mounting them in each (or one?) hull.

Another motivator is a desire to not be dependent on many parts or parts that can't be easily replaced/rebuilt/fabricated when a long way from a parts supplier.

Any additional videos and info will be appreciated. Also, I've been wondering what the maximum size might be for a balanced lug type rig with a number of full length battens. In this case not trying for a pure junk rig with it's attendant sheetlets and simple reefing but perhaps retaining a bit more (perceived?) weatherliness at some expense of simple reefing but with simpler sheeting. I would want some sort of means for managing the yard better than having it just flop down while being hoisted/lowered. Perhaps a form of fixed topping lift connected to the halyard and a higher masthead to keep the yard at a generally constant angle while hoisting.

I guess what I'm asking is can a balanced lug outperform a straight junk rig and up to what size can it be made 'relatively' easy to handle?
I think your ideas about modifying the junk rig reflect your lack of experience with the rig. IMHO, the only innovations worth their salt have been to put camber into the rig, and to put the forward part of the batten on both sides of the mast inside of an aerodynamic shaped sleeve. The nature of the rig makes the size almost irrelevant to handling, the stresses are so well balanced and distributed.
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Old 16th October 2009, 07:36 AM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

I have been following bertrands doings for a while now. very interesting stuff.

Thanks for all the Vids.
have you looked at jonq de plesons web site. (I have probably misspelled it)
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:00 AM
2MT 2MT is offline
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

well IME the junk rig is pretty easy up the schooner size (the largest i have been around.)

most of what i had been told detracting about the junk rig i have seen in practice on my own boat and on those running it on much bigger boats have been wrong.

pointing has been show to be higher in some cases and the amount of heel experienced is much less for the power provided. One thing i found on my boats rig is that the sheet lets are not a problem in normal use. we trailer Tari Tari so sometimes i get a tangle when stepping the mast. sorts out fast however.
we also observed that once you get the sail dialed in for general running there is very little incentive to fiddle with it. however if you are looking for performance you can tune them to be Very very fast. A couple friends of ours that live aboard said why tune it to the edge when a general tune was all that was needed to provide all the power and more that you could ever want?

seems to be the general attitude of most junk rig sailors. as you said for the rig you cam fabricate every thing on board and repair it with no hassles.

the Pha sails wonderfully with the dragon wing configuration both up and down wind in light and heavy weather.
We have an extra panel in ours for light winds if we need. our light wind experiance was at port townsand sailing around the point in the morning.
there was not enough wind to wiggle the hairs on your arm and we where getting 1/2 kt. Every one else that was sailing soon dropped sail and cranked up the power plants because they could make no headway. these guys had Everything in the air including undergarments. we hadnt even opened up the last panel yet.

I dont know much about the balanced lug but i dont Think i want to use a sail that does not automatically trim. those sheetlets just run and trim the sail pretty as you please.

a word about the soft wing sails. our rig in good wind makes the same S curve without the bother of wrapping the mast we have bamboo battens.
I suspect that most folks put to stiff of battens on the sail and have no camber. so they dont develop the S curve and do get poor performance.

What i really like is the lack of heeling in the wind. the sail wants to push the boat along not tip it over.
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by 2MT View Post
I have been following bertrands doings for a while now. very interesting stuff.

Thanks for all the Vids.
have you looked at jonq de plesons web site. (I have probably misspelled it)
http://www.jonquedeplaisance.net/en/
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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What i really like is the lack of heeling in the wind. the sail wants to push the boat along not tip it over.
I think the more camber you put into the sail, the more heeling you will get, but also the more lift to windward - up to a point. Junk sails with camber rarely have more than 8% camber - sometimes more camber lower, and less aloft, so 8% in the bottom panels and maybe 6% in the highest panels.
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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I think the more camber you put into the sail, the more heeling you will get, but also the more lift to windward.
we dont have a whole lot of camber but it goes all the way down the sail.

we where sailing in twentys with gusts to thirty and didnt get much heel unless we wanted it. (we are learning that our boat likes a little bit)

however i believe the reason we get the that nice S curve in the sail is the battens. it is funny when the first curve sets about two thirds from the leading edge you can feel the sail power up a little. When the second curve sets in just around the mast its like someone just pushed you slowly and firmly back in your seat. the power up is stunning. and looking up the sail you can see the S shape acting like two wings. it really shows you how the sail works. you can see both the wing tops being pulled.

very much like a canard air craft.
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Old 16th October 2009, 04:06 PM
cchesley cchesley is offline
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

I readily concede almost a complete lack of familiarity with the junk rig. My question however was about the practical size limits (if any) of a standing/balanced lug rig, with an eye toward it also being fully battened. I also recognize that what I am describing is technically different from the junk rig in several ways. The lug (as I am describing) does not have sheetlets nor batten parrels and unlike the junk rig relies on some form of luff tension to set. Perhaps the differences lie primarily in the ease of use more than anything. But I would still like to know if anyone has explored both the practical and theoretical differences between the two, especially in sizes larger than small open boats.
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Old 16th October 2009, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by cchesley View Post
I readily concede almost a complete lack of familiarity with the junk rig. My question however was about the practical size limits (if any) of a standing/balanced lug rig, with an eye toward it also being fully battened. I also recognize that what I am describing is technically different from the junk rig in several ways. The lug (as I am describing) does not have sheetlets nor batten parrels and unlike the junk rig relies on some form of luff tension to set. Perhaps the differences lie primarily in the ease of use more than anything. But I would still like to know if anyone has explored both the practical and theoretical differences between the two, especially in sizes larger than small open boats.

I understand what you are saying. I think your size limit would be the boat and how much tension the material the sail is made out of ,would be able to handle. you would need lots of tension in order to keep the sail fair and the cut would have to be pretty exact so it would hold its shape. hmm i have not thought about it but will do so now.
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Old 16th October 2009, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by cchesley View Post
I readily concede almost a complete lack of familiarity with the junk rig. My question however was about the practical size limits (if any) of a standing/balanced lug rig, with an eye toward it also being fully battened. I also recognize that what I am describing is technically different from the junk rig in several ways. The lug (as I am describing) does not have sheetlets nor batten parrels and unlike the junk rig relies on some form of luff tension to set. Perhaps the differences lie primarily in the ease of use more than anything. But I would still like to know if anyone has explored both the practical and theoretical differences between the two, especially in sizes larger than small open boats.
By definition, all lug rigs are balanced, but some are more balanced than others, depending on the percentage of overhang forward of the mast. There is the standing lug, the dipping lug, and the Chinese rig. Without battens and parrels, I think the lug rig would be quite a handful. IMHO, the standing lug is suitable for something like a dingy, but not for a self-contained cruising vessel. The dipping lug would be something I would not want to use on any boat that didn't have a large and active crew-It has disappeared for good reason, I would say.
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Old 16th October 2009, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by 2MT View Post
since i dont want to drift another's thread i thought this would be a good place to start this sort of discussion. {My comments in these brackets}

I like my pros and cons lists so here they are.

Cons:
Heavy? {Relatively, but lower center of gravity}
not as fast? {not fast as the Marconi rig if you fly spinnakers, otherwise, faster}
wont point as high? {Points as high if you give it camber. Old fashioned flat rigs don't point as high}
not as easy to trim? {easier to trim}
hard to set up. {Do you mean build? There are no off the shelf components, if that's what you mean.}
steep learning curve. {Nope, dead easy to sail}

Pros:
easy to use.
unstayed mast.
easy to make.
easy to fix.
gybes safely.
does not shred from a hole or two.
easy to reef.
very powerfull.
force stays low in the sail.
Will self tac.

{all true}

the question marks denote things i have not observed and have not heard about from those who sail with them regularly.

so lets hear your experiences or the rumors you hear about this rig.
{I sailed across the Pacific with the junk rig, via the 'scenic route.'}
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

Just to put the cat among the pigeons! and maybe have the item moved to a new thread (please if it distracts from this discussion).

There other historic rigs that were relatively easy to use and efficient I,m not sure of the details of the rigging but now am going to investigate as these boats were often sailed with a crew of 2 (A man & boy) weighed in at up to 60 ton but could reach speed of 10+ knots

I give you the humble Thames barge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_sailing_barge



I was knock over - blown away when I got close to one under way
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by 3Psuite View Post
Just to put the cat among the pigeons! and maybe have the item moved to a new thread (please if it distracts from this discussion).

There other historic rigs that were relatively easy to use and efficient I,m not sure of the details of the rigging but now am going to investigate as these boats were often sailed with a crew of 2 (A man & boy) weighed in at up to 60 ton but could reach speed of 10+ knots

I give you the humble Thames barge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_sailing_barge



I was knock over - blown away when I got close to one under way
If you want to cruise the world in a Thames barge it's OK with me, but I think I'll pass.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

No I don't but I guess the sail plan works for shallow draft boats that sailed unballasted they relate some how. They were at the time, without modern hardware easy to handle and worked in difficult conditions.

As these worked in rivers without engines I guess they sail well. So just as i read your comments on the junk rig with interest and try to understand the technology and benefits, I hope you will also keep an open mind.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

love the way those barges look. not sure how i would go about sailing them. i am new to this blow boat business and only have experiance with gaff's, marconi's and junks.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by 3Psuite View Post
No I don't but I guess the sail plan works for shallow draft boats that sailed unballasted they relate some how. They were at the time, without modern hardware easy to handle and worked in difficult conditions.

As these worked in rivers without engines I guess they sail well. So just as i read your comments on the junk rig with interest and try to understand the technology and benefits, I hope you will also keep an open mind.

I'm Patrick O'Brian's biggest fan, I think. (Measured by weight, not volume.) I've read his volumes volumes of times.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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love the way those barges look. not sure how i would go about sailing them. i am new to this blow boat business and only have experiance with gaff's, marconi's and junks.
More kinds of rigs than most yachties ever experience. I've never sailed a gaff rigged boat.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: junk rig general discussion

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Originally Posted by 3Psuite View Post
No I don't but I guess the sail plan works for shallow draft boats that sailed unballasted they relate some how. They were at the time, without modern hardware easy to handle and worked in difficult conditions.

As these worked in rivers without engines I guess they sail well. So just as i read your comments on the junk rig with interest and try to understand the technology and benefits, I hope you will also keep an open mind.
I dont know the English rivers very well or the weather on them. However i have met a few folks sail there and they tell me that on most you dont do much tacking. you kinda establish the wind direction and set the sails accordingly then for the most part minor adjustments are all you need on those big boats. I have not observed this so all i can do is pass on hearsay.

like the Europe, China has hundreds of rigs. each has strengths and weaknesses and was developed over time for specific conditions.
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