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  #41  
Old 2nd December 2010, 06:39 PM
dmmbruce dmmbruce is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
It's no good just changing Captn. John's "average" to "median", he was using a figure given as the average, so his assumption that 50% of the waves were larger is not valid. He didn't get the origin of "fathom" right either!
The size of a fathom is nothing to do with waves, the name comes from an Old English word and means a pair of arms. The fathom is the distance between a man's outstretched fingertips.
Agreed!
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  #42  
Old 2nd December 2010, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by TYRNTLZRDKING View Post
My post gave credit to the author Captain John.
I mistakenly assumed that your copy & pasted posts were your own words. I had no idea who Captain John was until you posted the link. Also, it's not a good idea to quote someone and then edit their wording to suit. Still, no harm done and all interesting stuff.
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  #43  
Old 2nd December 2010, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

After reading all these posts it seems to me that a 32 ft cat is the optimum size






Oh it just so happens I have a 32 ft cat, aren't I the lucky one
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  #44  
Old 2nd December 2010, 07:07 PM
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multihullsailor6 multihullsailor6 is online now
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by IreAneY View Post
After reading all these posts it seems to me that a 32 ft cat is the optimum size

Oh it just so happens I have a 32 ft cat, aren't I the lucky one
I would think a 32 ft cat is the minimum size, Ian, not the optimum - that's far more down to personal aspects.

Oh, and your 32 ft measurement is AFTER you included the new stainless steel bow fittings you had made and fitted?
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  #45  
Old 2nd December 2010, 07:08 PM
TYRNTLZRDKING
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by Tabs View Post
It's no good just changing Captn. John's "average" to "median", he was using a figure given as the average, so his assumption that 50% of the waves were larger is not valid. He didn't get the origin of "fathom" right either!
Found this info about waves online.
I DID NOT WRITE THE BELOW PARAGRAPH. THIS IS BY..
Dr J Floor Anthoni 2000
www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/waves.htm


"Fifty percent of all waves exceed the average wave height, and an equal number are smaller. The highest one-tenth of all waves are twice as high as the average wave height (and four times more powerful). Towards the left, the probability curve keeps rising off the scale: one in 5000 waves is three times higher and so on. The significant wave height H3 is twice the most probable height and occurs about 15% or once in seven waves, hence the saying "Every seventh wave is highest". Click here for a larger version of this diagram"

Does the first sentence not agree with Captain John?

Above quote is from following website under catagory waves and wind.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

The chart shows the average wave height as 1.77 meters or 5'10" (Captain John was not far off).
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  #46  
Old 2nd December 2010, 10:14 PM
dmmbruce dmmbruce is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TYRNTLZRDKING View Post
Found this info about waves online.
I DID NOT WRITE THE BELOW PARAGRAPH. THIS IS BY..
Dr J Floor Anthoni 2000
www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/waves.htm


"Fifty percent of all waves exceed the average wave height, and an equal number are smaller. The highest one-tenth of all waves are twice as high as the average wave height (and four times more powerful). Towards the left, the probability curve keeps rising off the scale: one in 5000 waves is three times higher and so on. The significant wave height H3 is twice the most probable height and occurs about 15% or once in seven waves, hence the saying "Every seventh wave is highest". Click here for a larger version of this diagram"

Does the first sentence not agree with Captain John?

Above quote is from following website under catagory waves and wind.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

The chart shows the average wave height as 1.77 meters or 5'10" (Captain John was not far off).

Whether or not "Captain John" got the figure about right for the average wave height. Both he, and the author of this latest article are completely wrong in saying "Fifty percent of all waves exceed the average wave height, and an equal number are smaller."

That is simply wrong.

The difference between a mean or average, and a median, are hammered into children's heads at about age 13.

By muddling these things, the whole article loses credibility.

But it is still an interesting subject!


Mike
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  #47  
Old 2nd December 2010, 10:24 PM
TYRNTLZRDKING
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

The median of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 is 4.

The average of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 is 4.
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  #48  
Old 2nd December 2010, 10:49 PM
dmmbruce dmmbruce is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by TYRNTLZRDKING View Post
The median of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 is 4.

The average of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 is 4.
True so?

the median of 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 8 9 is 1
the average is 3.33
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  #49  
Old 2nd December 2010, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

1+1 bottle of rum are 3 . . . days sleeping with the dog after messing up with the slip neighbor's wife while drunk. . .

Sorry, i couldn't resist.

Ricardo
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  #50  
Old 27th December 2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi View Post
Okay, time out.
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses, but my question is not one of power generation and outboard vs. deisel auxilary, but rather...

"Is a 32-34 foot cat, when properly loaded and sailed, a truly seaworthy and appropriate vessel for blue water and circumnavigation?"
Short answer : YES ...

Long answer : Some are and some are not, just depends on the build, select a good design, correctly built, and you'll do fine...
As already mentioned in that size and even below it has been done...
Even older designs are quite capable, to name some off the top of my head, I confirm I know of Heavenly Twins, Ocean Winds, Oceanic, ... Even an Iroquois that is considered by many as one of the 'less safe' designs as you can flip them if you push them...
[off topic] You want to go smaller ? What about a tiki 21 ? [on topic]

So again, yes it's plenty of a size as long as you are comfortable with it...
The limits of a sound boat are beyond the limits of the skipper...
:
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  #51  
Old 29th December 2010, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

When you consider that two escapees from an asylum actually crossed the Atlantic in (or should that be on?) a 16 ft Hobie, 32-34 ft seems at least adequate!
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  #52  
Old 29th December 2010, 05:27 PM
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IreAneY IreAneY is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

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Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
When you consider that two escapees from an asylum actually crossed the Atlantic in (or should that be on?) a 16 ft Hobie, 32-34 ft seems at least adequate!
Trouble was they eventually caught me and my mate
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  #53  
Old 29th December 2010, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IreAneY View Post
Trouble was they eventually caught me and my mate
Didn't I tell you to shut up





:
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  #54  
Old 29th December 2010, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djeeke View Post
Didn't I tell you to shut up





:
Yes I know, but we all know what a big mouth I have although it wasn't me that spoke, I was with an even bigger mouth escaping ................ JKD :
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  #55  
Old 30th December 2010, 03:41 AM
ka8uet ka8uet is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Just because something CAN be done is no reason that it SHOULD be done! The size of the boat crossing the ocean has less to do with a successful crossing than the capacity of her skipper/crew to endure said crossing. Even better is if everyone is still speaking to everyone else after the voyage!
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  #56  
Old 30th December 2010, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

I have been reading in several places that for a couple to go cruising, 38 feet should be about the maximum anyway.
In my mind 32-34 is somewhat small, also because the payload will be rather limited. I would guess no more than 1000 to 1200 kgs. So that is very little if you want to keep the misses happy. Well, mine anyway.
I also looked at a Woods design, but the Transit 38. Not my favo cat at the moment (mainly because of the looks and little cockpit area), but still on my short list.

Happy New Year everybody!
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  #57  
Old 1st January 2011, 12:38 AM
jkd jkd is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IreAneY View Post
Yes I know, but we all know what a big mouth I have although it wasn't me that spoke, I was with an even bigger mouth escaping ................ JKD :
My mouth only opens large enough to accept my foot (metaphorically speaking of course)! Granted we both seem to have escaped some mental care facility at one point, I can assure you we were not on the same ward or facility together as I would have remembered a strange fellow with the fascination for navel lint such as yourself.: Have you decided to donate that 600 kilo ball of fuzz to a museum yet?

John
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  #58  
Old 2nd January 2011, 08:25 PM
Sandy Daugherty Sandy Daugherty is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

In the twelve years I've been involved with the PDQ Owners Group, I don't believe there have ever been less than a third of all the boats built out cruising. That is a remarkably high percentage. I would hazard a guess that the majority are sailed by a couple, with occasional additional crew. These boats can comfortably accommodate four adults on either the 32 or the 36. Its only my personal observation that other marques are not reaching these numbers. My point is that there are some boats available that fill the needs of a cruising couple remarkably well, because their experienced crews don't see any great reward in circumnavigating.
To my knowledge, no PDQ 32 or 36 has circumnavigated. Neither has any Gemini. Yet. That has never really been a question of the capability of the vessel. Given the level of sophistication of weather forecasting and a modicum of good decisions, anyone can circumnavigate on anything. What matters most, first, last and always, is the crew. Let me propose a set of requirements for circunavigators themselves: I'll even try to rank them in order, and look forward to a great debate.

MOTIVE, MEANS , AND OPPORTUNITY OF CIRCUMNAVIGATORS
The first and most important requirement is the burning desire (expressed or suppressed) to sail around the world. This must exclude the world traveler's craving for distant destinations and different cultures. These can be visited on public transportation. All you need is a Passport, a credit card, and a guide book. If this craving is your motivation, you run the risk of either finally seeing enough, or finding a place you want to stay. The Monomaniacal Circumnavigator will press on in discomfort and expense, leaving even the most perfect Eden (or the most beautiful broken heart) in his wake.
This must also exclude the need for bragging rights; it's been done too many times already, and there is no exclusive fraternity of circumnavigators toasting themselves in front of a grand old fireplace. You can walk into any yachty bar on the coast and find three other circumnavigators with interesting stories of some remote port where wise men fear to tread. Let's don't and say we did if that's the reason.
What of the need to prove yourself?
To whom? Why? Wouldn't therapy help? And what originally made you think you needed to ? Some people are satisfied with skydiving and alligator wrestling. Other's measure their merit by their checkbook. I think the best way to do this is by catching a nice fish.
And if this is your reason, greater adulation falls on whoever accompanies you.
Next comes the means. At whatever level of opulence you aspire to, you will need time, money, crew and a vessel in that order.
Its not going to happen without money, from somewhere. External sources are limited. One might a get a grant from CBS to do a reality show. Another might get a chunk of change from the girlfriend's disgruntled billionaire father, although I would question your tactics. One more might win the lottery. The rest of you will have to work and save. Forget about earning a living underway. You will be visiting places that have no need for plumbers because there is no plumbing. Or Internet. Or whatever. If you can make a living from posting a few pages of email a few times a week, I've got to wonder why you want to do that from the middle of a Monsoon. And I've got to wonder HOW you're going to do that from the middle of a Monsoon, or becalmed in the Pacific gyre with weak batteries.
Solo circumnavigators are a special class of lunatics. Just ask one. If you can get his attention. I hope there is a club for them, with a big fireplace, and lots of toasting. Just as I wish there were such a place for Medal of Honor Wearers. These be not mere mortals.
Everyone else needs some crew. Eyes should be open and scanning the horizon anywhere within 100 miles of a sea lane.
Port and Starboard watches will eat you alive after a few days. With 3 people a 3-on, 6-off schedule can be endured from longer periods, providing the vessel can be reefed by one person. And every extra watch-stander comes with an appetite, needs water, and has an opinion. The math gets complicated when you put enough stores in for 30 days between grocery stores. And women need three times as much toilet paper.
The land of opportunity is larger now than ever before. Virtually any of us in the free world can take the time required; blow off the job, stand up the date, write a note to the family. With the price of a bus ticket to the nearest coast we can step out of one existence and shed a number of ties. Boats can be found. Sailors with great ability (or greater luck) can survive on smaller boats, while the most blatantly incompetent can court death within swimming distance of their point of origin, regardless of the "seaworthiness" of their chosen vessel. Examples abound. Success comes from the appropriate pairing of vessel and crew.
The more difficult aspect of opportunity has to do with conditions and the choice of routes. It has been suggested elsewhere, that Weather services around the world have reached a level of perfection that would allow virtually any vessel with accommodations for a 1000 mile voyage can circumnavigate in benign conditions. I would be glad to hear this objectively discussed, but will accept this premise for the time being.
the following is undeniably true: The most dangerous thing on a sailboat is a calendar. To explain this, you need to understand the true cause of all accidents. Little things go wrong. Crews accept them, and defer dealing with them either because they require time and attention needed to pursue a plan, or because the crew decides its no big thing and they can cope. The other little things go wrong. Suddenly a point is reached when there are too many things going wrong, the crew's resources are no longer sufficient to cope, backup systems fail, and tragedy results.
Little things abound on older boats. Bigger things lurk around bigger boats, like heavier rigging, more complicated systems, more expensive spares. But the universal worst thing is the decision to press on into known (or knowable) bad conditions.
The most threatening knowable condition is weather. The most common need to press on comes from having to be somewhere else before something else happens, or the money runs out, or the toilet paper gets used up. The surest prevention of this accident is the prudent navigator. That comes easiest to the one with the most experience. Everyone else relies on luck. Reading lots of books, blogs and forums can help the neophyte recognize bad developments, but nothing beats being there.
So the best answer to the any question about the seaworthiness, length, displacement, quality of construction, ease of use or general saltiness of a vessel is best answered

JUST GO SAILING!
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  #59  
Old 2nd January 2011, 10:36 PM
TYRNTLZRDKING
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

Toilet paper seems to big factor.
What kind is best?

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  #60  
Old 2nd January 2011, 11:24 PM
Sandy Daugherty Sandy Daugherty is offline
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Default Re: Is a 32-34 ft Cat truly large enough for circumnav?

reuseable.
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