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2hullsgood1hullbad
2nd November 2008, 05:48 PM
Just a thought, but if you're looking for a fast, lightweight cat, why would you choose a Fastcat? A Schionning is a faster, lighter boat, with a proven track record, and can be yard built if you don't want to do it yourself. An owner showed me over his Cosmos 1350 (a stretched 1320) that he had yard built in Australia and it was lovely - very comfortable and spacious, and very well put together, apparently very fast, with daggerboards, and cheaper than a Fastcat. I'd love to be able to say that was finished on time but actually it came in a few months late...
I'm sure there are plenty of other similar boats out there as well.
I've never really figured out who Fastcats were being made for - they don't appear to be particularly fast, or light, so why not just buy a production boat and spare yourself the agonies that the owners of "Butterfly" have gone through?

44C
2nd November 2008, 08:15 PM
I couldn't afford one anyway. IIRC it's 900,000 EURO's for a 45 footer. Youd get a 50 foot boat built here for less. Or if you went for an Oram you could get a 60 footer built for less.

Nordic
2nd November 2008, 11:36 PM
Fastcats are a dated design, or to be specific the Fascat 435/455. They are built by people with limited boat building experience, with an absentee owner sitting 10000 kms away most of the time.

There has been alot of hype about these boats on another forum:) Despite all the fantastic innovations claimed by the company owner,the boats seem to weigh pretty much the same as a comparable size FP cat, with less space and amenities.

The owner of the company has made numerous claims that have proven to be downright lies, regarding the weight, speed and number of boats on order.

I was on one of the boats at the La Rochelle show a couple of years ago, and found the finish a bit shoddy, especially the woodwork and veneer work.

The 2 boats sold and built for customers have both been delayed by about 6months, with numerous problems and long snag lists.

The owners of Butterfly have done the right thing, and stuck with the project and not compromised in their demands to get what they ordered, but what an ordeal!

In the case of Butterfly, despite the weigh scales reading around 8.5 tons lightship, Gideon still claims 6.5 tons and claims the 2 tons difference are extra options.

I agree that there are alot more boats out there that will perform better and be cheaper and also better long term investments.

A Chris White Atlantic 48 is 30% less and will run circles around a Fastcat, as will some of the others mentioned above.

A Fastcat has only about 65 cms clearance under the bridgedeck, as well as large protrusions to fit the aft beds in.

The Fastcat 48 is in fact a St. Francis 48, the Fastcat 30 is a Rayvin 30, much talked about because of numerous build quality issues...

I would give Mr. Goudsmit a very wide berth when looking at a new boat, and save myself a whole lot of anguish and frustration.

Alan

2hullsgood1hullbad
3rd November 2008, 04:31 PM
Yes, that's my point really - it seems you can buy a Fontaine Pajot or similar for less money and have a boat with similar performance to a "Fastcat" without the delivery delays and unproven build quality, and if you really want a fast cat then look around, there are plenty available for "Fastcat" money that really are fast and light, and can be built by reputable yards to a high standard. I know which cat I won't be buying...

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 05:10 PM
I have found the whole Fastcat experience bordering on fantasy.

I am amazed that in a poll for their dreamboat some 12.5% on the CF forum voted the Fastcat as their dreamboat.

The Fastcat was on my short list and I went to Amsterdam for what turned out to be a surreal experience.

The amazing thing today is that such incredible claims are still being made by Gideon as he delivers such deplorable service. For all the hype, he has only ever sold 2 new boats and both have problems.

I hope that once fixed a Fastcat turns out to be a great boat because that is what the owners of Barnacle & Butterfly deserve.

I do have to thank Gideon for one thing though - that is being the root cause of me leaving the CF forum to establish this one:)

I only wish he would join this one and defend himself - he is more than welcome to do just that.

IreAneY
3rd November 2008, 06:40 PM
I don't think he will join as most of the people who have seen through his claims on the other site, are here on this site and appear to spend a lot more time here as the information is freely coming, very informative without the bull shit.
I sometimes wonder if there was a tie between him and the other site as he was able to get away with continually marketing his products on normal threads which 'Was against their policy':rolleyes:, because when he was confronted 'The Moderators';) stuck up for him and not tried to resolve the issues in a professional and unbiased manner:(

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 06:59 PM
The final straw for me was the moderator closing a thread to protect him and then adding his own personal bit after the thread was closed in in that bit having the nerve to criticise the owners of Butterfly & Barnacle.

I reported this and lost then battle then a more senior moderator agreed that it was wrong to have added the comments but any telling off had to be done in private - no moderator was ever allowed to be wrong in public.

My problem was that no matter what the subject Gideon was in there with points I wanted to challenge but could not because you were not allowed to point out his total inconsistent points as that was considered to be bashing him.

I found myself so hand tied that when he joined a thread I felt I could not take part anymore.

Anyway as he claims to be producing 7 boats a year now rising to 12 a year and none have arrived from the factory in the last 6 months- we must be due for them popping out in quick succession in under a month each for the next 6 months.

I am tempted to publish the video I took in Amsterdam but do not feel like working to post such a negative conclusion.:)

2hullsgood1hullbad
3rd November 2008, 07:25 PM
Paul, please publish the video, it has to be of value to prospective Fastcat purchasers?:eek:

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 07:33 PM
Things did not go well.
With 26 knots of wind we had to use the engines to tack and it really was a shanles.

Lesley told me that is that is what sailing cats are like at sea then she will not be with me in one!!:):)

Video is a very powerful media to use in a negative manner and I never try to do that.

Wait until you see the video that I am working on now - it will do St Francis a lot of good.

IreAneY
3rd November 2008, 07:37 PM
The final straw for me was the moderator closing a thread to protect him and then adding his own personal bit after the thread was closed in in that bit having the nerve to criticise the owners of Butterfly & Barnacle.

I reported this and lost then battle then a more senior moderator agreed that it was wrong to have added the comments but any telling off had to be done in private - no moderator was ever allowed to be wrong in public.

My problem was that no matter what the subject Gideon was in there with points I wanted to challenge but could not because you were not allowed to point out his total inconsistent points as that was considered to be bashing him.

I found myself so hand tied that when he joined a thread I felt I could not take part anymore.

Anyway as he claims to be producing 7 boats a year now rising to 12 a year and none have arrived from the factory in the last 6 months- we must be due for them popping out in quick succession in under a month each for the next 6 months.


I am tempted to publish the video I took in Amsterdam but do not feel like working to post such a negative conclusion. I understand what you are saying, but if you have the time I, and I am sure many others, would love to see what you experienced:)

The area I have highlighted in red is very interesting, some time ago I was very interested in the Fusion 40 a kit Cat from OZ, in a thread on the other forum, he critized the Fusion, see his reply below

Hallo Ireaney
I think A forum is meant to give a opinion and that is all I did.
You are right we have only build and sold 65 FastCats over the last 6 years in sizes from 39 ft up to 52 ft. and I am sure more Fusion 40 s have been build and sold with their special way of building and construction. However the Fusion is a total different type of cat for a different public and in no way a treath to us , we are sold out until the end of 2011 and have stopped selling until we can up our production in our new factory.
The FastCat has been extended to 46 ft , the roof has been raised to accomodate a headroom of almost 7 feet thru out the boat . As I stated before I think the concept is good but Quality of workmanship is lacking in the only hull deck parts as coming out of a container, I have seen coming from Thailand at a professional boat builder in South Africa.
Another thing I noticed as a critical boat builder is that in the infusion process the foam was not tight together creating resin rich spots and because of that poor infused foam parts next to these runs.If you want my opninion they have a lot to learn in Thailand before a quality boat comes out.
It is the best way to staple the foam together with nylon staples prior to the infusion process becasue the moment you apply vacuum the foam starts to shift and creates resin runs that we want to avoid at any cost.
This in only my 10 cents worth

Warm Greetings

Gideon Goudsmit


As from the information above by Mr GG we must all be wrong he has sold 65 cats:D:D:D

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 07:47 PM
65 I honestly thought that I could no longer be surprised ..... but I am:)

I just do not know how anyone can advertise other makes of boats as his - claim to be an exclusive agent for St Francis when he was not etc etc etc - I am totally amazed how anyone could get away with it all.

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 07:49 PM
By the way which make was the 52 footers he sold?:):)

IreAneY
3rd November 2008, 08:03 PM
By the way which make was the 52 footers he sold?:):)

Christ knows, Mr Walter Mitty must have designs we don't even know about, the more I read and see about this manufacturer the more I am confused as to how he still sells his boats and why people fall for the sales spiell.
I am sure that there are laws about his claims ie Office of Fair Trading, Trading Standards and Production description.

It is getting to the point of absurdity and reminds me of when I was in China watching TV in my hotel bedroom and the adverts came on, I did not understand what was being said, but you were presented with what I would call as an unattractive young Chinese lady who proceeded to rub a special cream on her face and 'Hey presto' the next shot of this young lady and she was transformed into a beauty;). I still understood what they were trying to say which would have been banned big time in the Uk.

ForumAdmin
3rd November 2008, 08:16 PM
If Gideon made that cream it would be the longest running TV advert in history as it would take 6 months and counting before any result was delivered!!! :):):)

IreAneY
3rd November 2008, 08:30 PM
If Gideon made that cream it would be the longest running TV advert in history as it would take 6 months and counting before any result was delivered!!! :):):)
That would be unfair there would be too many ugly girls around.:D:D:D

Ozmultis
3rd November 2008, 09:38 PM
Video is a very powerful media to use in a negative manner and I never try to do that.

Wait until you see the video that I am working on now - it will do St Francis a lot of good.

Well done Paul, - say your piece and be honest but don't bash the thing for ever - I think that it is appropriate, everyone here is being direct about the fastcat but not getting emotional, I think it shows a maturity of members.

TYRNTLZRDKING
4th November 2008, 09:01 PM
Video is a very powerful media to use in a negative manner and I never try to do that.

I agree that video is a very powerful media, and one should not try to make it negative, but I for one would like to view the truth.
Are you saying that any negative opinions of yours will not be shown in video?
Be objective and fair. Show the good, bad, and ugly.

Jeff

ForumAdmin
4th November 2008, 09:34 PM
I was aware of the very point you made when I decided not to publish.

It is a valid point.

My aim is never to report anything that is not true - all I say on each viceo is totally my true opinion. My aim is to report good and bad in a totally balanced fashion.

I do not want to scare people away from allowing me to make videos and frankly I am not keen to spend about 50 hours work to produce a video that, as in this case, would be very negative indeed. In fact there is really nothing good I could honestly find to say. Having to use engines to tack in 26 knots of wind is not good! The finish and obvious faults in the boat are not good. The total fabrications told to us are not good. It would be the video from hell:)

I also think that everyone knows how I feel about Fastcats or rather the owner. I also think that going over and over it would lose any weight given to my opinion - folks watching me continue to flog a dead horse would think thoughts that started to reflect on me, not the horse:)

I am working hard everyday on the new St Francis video but do get a thing called 'work' that I have to do now and again and that slows it down. When you see the new video, which is much more personal, I hope you will see that we are reporting as flies on the wall and honestly.

Lesley features on the new video a lot, so at least you will meet one side of the team:)

gideon
5th November 2008, 06:24 AM
I couldn't afford one anyway. IIRC it's 900,000 EURO's for a 45 footer. Youd get a 50 foot boat built here for less. Or if you went for an Oram you could get a 60 footer built for less.
I like the 900.000,00 euro part but why the increase from 520.000,00
That is the price for a sail away FastCat 455 , no more unless you want loads of options.

44C
5th November 2008, 08:44 AM
Sorry, it was based on my recollection of prices being discussed. I must have remembered incorrectly, or perhaps I remembered the number 900,000 which would be the approximate price in Aus dollars, but forgot that I had already converted it from Euros. Either way, it's out of my price range.

gideon
5th November 2008, 08:53 AM
Sorry, it was based on my recollection of prices being discussed. I must have remembered incorrectly, or perhaps I remembered the number 900,000 which would be the approximate price in Aus dollars, but forgot that I had already converted it from Euros. Either way, it's out of my price range.

No problem just wanted it to be correct

Greetings

Gideon

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th November 2008, 11:51 AM
Could we perhaps clear up the question of how many Fastcats have been sold? We have a few conflicting figures:

"You are right we have only build and sold 65 FastCats over the last 6 years in sizes from 39 ft up to 52 ft" (Gideon)

"we have over 50 cats in the water that regularly need the rubber put back on" (Gideon, from CF)

"For all the hype, he has only ever sold 2 new boats and both have problems" (Forum Admin, here)

So which is correct?:confused::confused::confused:

gideon
5th November 2008, 12:56 PM
Could we perhaps clear up the question of how many Fastcats have been sold? We have a few conflicting figures:

"You are right we have only build and sold 65 FastCats over the last 6 years in sizes from 39 ft up to 52 ft" (Gideon)

"we have over 50 cats in the water that regularly need the rubber put back on" (Gideon, from CF)

"For all the hype, he has only ever sold 2 new boats and both have problems" (Forum Admin, here)



So which is correct?:confused::confused::confused:

If we talk about the FastCat 435 and 455 19 are sold 4 are sailing and 4 are under construction at present.
The new 555 is still in the design phase and so is the new 405

Greetings

Gideon

Nordic
5th November 2008, 01:13 PM
So what you are in fact saying is that the earlier posts you have made are a bunch of lies?

I know I could phrase this a bit more diplomatically, but knowingly posting incorrect information is a damn lie in my book.

Gideon your credebility has long been at rock bottom as far as I am concerned, but your continued posting of downright falsehoods is not likely to win you new customers on any of the forums you frequent.

I can only reccomend any possible buyers of a new Fastcat to take their business elsewhere.

One thing I will credit you with is the fact that you don't give up:rolleyes:

So how are the 7 boats you are going to deliver this year coming along? Only Butterfly is launched, and not yet officially handed over we gather.

Were those "facts" also lies?

Alan

gideon
5th November 2008, 02:21 PM
So what you are in fact saying is that the earlier posts you have made are a bunch of lies?

I know I could phrase this a bit more diplomatically, but knowingly posting incorrect information is a damn lie in my book.

Gideon your credebility has long been at rock bottom as far as I am concerned, but your continued posting of downright falsehoods is not likely to win you new customers on any of the forums you frequent.

I can only reccomend any possible buyers of a new Fastcat to take their business elsewhere.

One thing I will credit you with is the fact that you don't give up:rolleyes:

So how are the 7 boats you are going to deliver this year coming along? Only Butterfly is launched, and not yet officially handed over we gather.

Were those "facts" also lies?

Alan

Hallo Alan

How is your fantasy coming along ? or is she still a "wet" dream like my 435 once was ?
Started building her yet ?
we are planning on 7 boats out in 2009 , our factory was delayed with 8 months so thing do not move so fast over here.
I am sure you will find out just like me , there is an expression TIA
( this is africa )
We are going along fine and are happy with the progress made including all the new upgrades in the Butterfly .
She is a beautifull cat with excellent sailing capability,s and the owners are happy with her.
Greetings and stay well.
Gideon

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th November 2008, 03:29 PM
I'm still none the wiser, where did the figures of 50 boats and 65 boats come from?:confused::confused::confused:

gideon
5th November 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm still none the wiser, where did the figures of 50 boats and 65 boats come from?:confused::confused::confused:

From previous boats we sold like the Maxim and rayvin 305 in our resin infused process
But we have stopped that and now only build own models since these are made from the outset to be resin infused and ( reasonable ) light weight.
Greetings

I still believe that the FastCat 435/455 is the lightests productionb cat in its size but if not let me know , I love to learn ??



Gideon

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th November 2008, 03:48 PM
Mmmm. So when you stated that you'd built and sold 65 Fastcats in the last six years, what you actually meant was you'd sold a mixture of 65 different boats over the last six years, not neccessarily Fastcats and not neccessarily built by you?

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th November 2008, 04:00 PM
I still believe that the FastCat 435/455 is the lightests productionb cat in its size but if not let me know , I love to learn ??

I suppose it depends what you mean by "production" - is a small scale builder like yourself building "production" boats any more than a yard that builds, say, Schionning boats to order (as they do in Australia and I believe South Africa)? If we accept that these builders are building "production" boats too, then I would guess that these boats are at least as light as yours - a Schionning Wilderness 1480 (48ft) comes in at around 7000kg. I'm sure there are many others besides...

gideon
5th November 2008, 04:06 PM
Mmmm. So when you stated that you'd built and sold 65 Fastcats in the last six years, what you actually meant was you'd sold a mixture of 65 different boats over the last six years, not neccessarily Fastcats and not neccessarily built by you?

We have build over 10 boats excluding the Lightweight rigid inflatables and have sold many more.
I started 8 years ago importing catamarans from South Africa and found out that thse could be improved a lot and that is what I first did, for instance the standard Maxim 380 had a weight of 8.5 tons while the resin infused version had a weight of 5.5 tons dramatically improving performance and payload, than the idea came up to start from the beginning with a resin infused catamaran using every possible technique available at that time to keep the weight as low as possible .
The result is the FastCat 435 and now we are in the process to produce larger and smaller versions while still improving on the 435/455.
The idea of building a retractable electric propulsion also started a few years ago and is now in its final stage.

I hope I have informed you well but if questions remain let me know

Greetings

Gideon

gideon
5th November 2008, 04:12 PM
I suppose it depends what you mean by "production" - is a small scale builder like yourself building "production" boats any more than a yard that builds, say, Schionning boats to order (as they do in Australia and I believe South Africa)? If we accept that these builders are building "production" boats too, then I would guess that these boats are at least as light as yours - a Schionning Wilderness 1480 (48ft) comes in at around 7000kg. I'm sure there are many others besides...
I think the difference is that we are CE A certified so we have to use different layup schedules from one off builders , I have heard that 600 grams of outer layer in some cases is enough, we also build in a female mould instead of a frame or male mould.
I enjoy what I do because I can keep on improving and implementing idea,s of my customers, not one boat is the same, Butterfly for instance has got more cabinets , more headroom and is longer than the original version besides many other changes like the aluminium extruded compression beam that is made for that purpose alone and has a walkway on it.
and yes we are very small builders our factory space is no more than 4000 squire meters and we employ 64 people
Greetings

Gideon

IreAneY
5th November 2008, 06:49 PM
Gideon,
On a personal note I am annoyed with both you and me and I shall explain.
I am annoyed at myself for falling for some of your posts on CF which now turn out from what I have read to be untrue, we had a little spat a long time ago over the Fusion 40 and you stated to me that you had built, I repeat built 65 Fastcats, which now turns out to be a lie, after a bit of time I started to warm to you as some of your ideas and advice posted seemed to make a lot of sense. I also started to side with you against Paul (he knows as I have apologised to him) as I felt he was putting you down on a long running thread (eventually stopped by the School Prefects as they got twitchy sphincters - wet farts IMO) on CF without realising the full truth.
Then there was the saga about Butterfly and Barnacles weight, which was stated by the owners and you still persisted in trying to change the figures to suit your own needs and try and back up what you had quoted.
Also there have been many other posts you have made where you have contradicted yourself or changed the numbers/weights etc to suit yourself, you have now stated in #30 0f this thread, that you came up with the decision to design your own boat and came up with the Fastcat 435/455, I was under the impression this boat was being made from old St.Francis moulds.
What I do not understand is why you persist in making all these claims (as all you are doing is alienating yourself and I would think jeopardising future sales)and stating facts which are being proved to be untrue.
We all know that you want to make lightweight, green, fast catamarans which I am sure we would all be interested to hear about, but please do yourself a favour and be up front with all of us, we are not going to laugh at you if you don't quite achieve what you aim for as we know you will contine to strive to get there.
I also think that most of us do not want to go everywhere all the time at 20 plus knots and cannot afford your boats, but are more interested in looking for nicely designed, good performing and well finished boats without the bull shit.
This forum I am finding to be a great source of positive and useful information without any crap (just one annoying member so far that has migrated from the other side - not you) and I hope it stays that way as I am sure it will mature to be a valuable information centre for all multihullers.

gideon
5th November 2008, 07:52 PM
Hallo Ian
I am sorry you are annoyed both with yourself and me.
I have helped build, improve and sell more than 65 yachts but only 10 within my own company.
Regarding weights I am always trying to get weights down without making boats weaker , a Fastcat 435 actually weights around 6500 kilo ready to sail which is a very low weight for a 44 ft sized cat . most have a standard weight that is close to double.
I am very willing to let all of you share in my knowledge in improving cats and since I actually build them and do not only dream about them, this works.
We do tests almost every day within our factory and sometimes have these verified by technical institutes like the tech. university of Durban .
I am a very enthousiastic and positive person and sometimes to positive.
I will try to dampen that a bit.
If you would want me to participate in this forum in a active way that is fine if not that is also fine and I will leave.
The reason for me to be here is to learn and to teach since I enjoy both.
I have never stated that the FastCat was made out of old St Francis moulds
we only started designing her in 2003 and the moulds where ready in 2004 and have been modified many times since then , always tweaking and improving.
I also do not want to go 20 knots all the time but what I do like is a good average speed and I will settle for 10 to 12 knots on a long cruise , that will make me very happy since that is a good speed.
The retractable propulsion system ( Green Motion ) if it works well will help here reducing the drag from saildrive and props or shaft drive props and p bracket.
I am always on the prowl to find ways to reduce weight , drag and optimize performance and for instance installing a wind generator on top of the mast although not your choice saves the weight of one battery.
We all try to make the cats we have better in many ways, that goes for you, for Paul, for Alan , for Big cat and all these boats are different since our wishes are different.
When I produced number 1 and it came in at a bit over 8000 kilo empty my target was 7000 hull number 2 came in at 6900 and my target lowered to 6500 , so far I have been able to meet my targets.
Improving is a hobby of mine as the Owners of Butterfly will probably tell you if asked.
I will continue to improve and all help is welcome in other words if you have idea,s that can help me let me know.

Greetings and stay well

Gideon

Nordic
5th November 2008, 09:02 PM
From previous boats we sold like the Maxim and rayvin 305 in our resin infused process
But we have stopped that and now only build own models since these are made from the outset to be resin infused and ( reasonable ) light weight.
Greetings

I still believe that the FastCat 435/455 is the lightests productionb cat in its size but if not let me know , I love to learn ??



Gideon

So now you claim that you have built Maxim and Rayvin cats as well as Fastcats?

Be honest damn it! You bought those for resale in Europe.

You have also claimed that you have an especially light St. Francis 48 due to you having managed the build.
The St. Francis 48 has now metamorphosed into a Fastcat 48 on your website, after you were caught out lying about being the St. Francis agent in Europe when you has been fired a long time previously.

Gideon, today Ian, as have others previously, tried to advise you to stop lying, and try to give straight answers.

But NO, within minutes you are at it again.

I know that you are stubborn, and thick skinned, but I hadn't expected this level of stupidity.

Some folks just don't understand that there might be others around who are nearly as smart as them.:)

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th November 2008, 09:28 PM
Ireaney,

I thought that was a very measured and sensible statement from you, hear hear! Couldn't have put it better myself.

Gideon,

If you really have a 4000sqm factory and employ 64 people (and you'll forgive my scepticism) you must be spending an absolute fortune. You must have very deep pockets. Surely your time would be better spent actually producing boats (assuming you have firm orders...) rather than spending so much time on forums which can only be hurting your business, as Ireaney so perfectly pointed out?;)

therapy
6th November 2008, 03:02 AM
...a Fastcat 435 actually weights around 6500 kilo ready to sail...

Gideon

So this is a 435---




Specifications subject to change – African Cats BVDesigner: Angelo Lavranos/ Gideon Goudsmit
Overall Length: 13,16m - 43 ft 1 in
Waterline Length: 12,59 m - 41 ft 3 in
Beam: 7,42m - 25 ft in
Draft: 1,18 m - 3ft 11in
Mast Height off DWL: 19,50 m - 58ft 4 in
Displacement: 6500 kg - 14 300 lbs
Sail Area: 119 m2. - 1290sq ft
(Mainsail 79.5 m2, Genoa 39.5 m2)
Water Capacity: 400 litre 500 optional
Fuel Capacity: 300 litre 500 optional
Engines: 2 x electric motors or 2 x 30/40 Hp diesel
Berths: 2 x 2, up to 8 berths
HULL, DECK AND BULKHEADS:
�� Dry laid-up construction using multi layers
of Quadraxial glass roving ,Kevlar under
waterline and partial Carbon reinforcement
in hull deck and bulkheads
�� Epoxy Resin and other highest grade
material with the VECTOR-K infusion
process
�� Divinycell Closed cell foam for strength and
minimal weight
�� Heavy duty marine foam on critical
structure bulkheads for added strength and
stiffness
�� Carbon reinforced fitting areas for rudders,
keels, mast, chain plates and deck fittings
�� Forward and Rearward water tight
compartments with horizontal bulkheads
�� Balanced carbon fibre Spade rudders with
aluminium rudder stock and Jefa bearings
�� Low aspect keels, reinforced for beaching
with Carbon Fibre and Aramide/Twaron or
optionally Dagger Boards
�� Copper Coat anti fouling
DECK FITTINGS:
STAINLESS STEEL, Grade 316:
�� Bow pulpits with seats push pits on stern
�� Brackets for two life ring buoys and bracket
for overboard light
�� Stanchions and stanchion bases
�� Swim ladder
�� Grab rails on coach roof
�� Double guard wires
DECK EQUIPMENT:
�� 2 x Primary winches on console Meissner
44ST
�� 2 x Secondary winches for Genoa 52 ST
�� 1 x Electric winch Meissner 48STE for
Halyards (Manual optional)
�� Tracks, cars, jammers and blocks by
Harken
�� 10 x Aluminium mooring cleats
SAFETY EQUIPMENT:
�� Basic safety equipment: flares, first aid kit
and 2 life rings 2 X escape hatches in
forward bathrooms
�� Automatic engine fire extinguishers
�� 6 life vests
�� 2 safety harnesses
�� 3 fire extinguishers in hulls and saloon
�� 1 fire blanket
�� safety lines Dyneema on deck, saloon and
between hulls
�� 1 safety buoy
PLUMBING:
�� 6 x Automatic electric bilge pumps
�� 1 x Calorifiers (hot water system) 40 litres
dual coil
�� Self draining cockpit
�� Pressurised hot & cold deck shower 2 x
ultra silent sensor max pump
�� 2 x Black water systems with tanks
�� Seawater deck wash and sea water kitchen
faucet
HATCHES AND WINDOWS:
�� 10 Hatches: 11 Port lights: and 8 tinted
Safety glass windows or Lexan opt.
�� Lexan double entrance door
�� GRP locker lids: 3 x foredeck, 2 x cockpit
RIGGING:
�� 7/8th fractional rig
�� Aluminium mast and boom supported by
single spreaders, intermediate and cap
shrouds
�� 2 x single point reefing lines luff pendant
�� LED Navigation lights and VHF antenna
�� Spectra side stays and Dyform front stay
�� Lazy jacks
�� Double purchase main halyard
SAILS:
�� Fully carbon fibre battened main, 3 reef
points, 10,3 oz cross cut Mylar
�� Roller Furling Genoa cross cut Mylar
�� Stack pack with lazy jack
�� Sheets and control lines
COCKPIT:
�� Aluminium steering leather covered
African FastCat 435 Vector-K
Sail Away Specifications


And this boat (subject to change has been noted) as listed above (a copy of your website) weighes 6500 kilos, right?

This is a simple yes or no question OK?

gideon
6th November 2008, 05:24 AM
Yes this is it and the weight as specified below is 6500 kilo give or take a few

Greetings




So this is a 435---




Specifications subject to change – African Cats BVDesigner: Angelo Lavranos/ Gideon Goudsmit
Overall Length: 13,16m - 43 ft 1 in
Waterline Length: 12,59 m - 41 ft 3 in
Beam: 7,42m - 25 ft in
Draft: 1,18 m - 3ft 11in
Mast Height off DWL: 19,50 m - 58ft 4 in
Displacement: 6500 kg - 14 300 lbs
Sail Area: 119 m2. - 1290sq ft
(Mainsail 79.5 m2, Genoa 39.5 m2)
Water Capacity: 400 litre 500 optional
Fuel Capacity: 300 litre 500 optional
Engines: 2 x electric motors or 2 x 30/40 Hp diesel
Berths: 2 x 2, up to 8 berths
HULL, DECK AND BULKHEADS:
�� Dry laid-up construction using multi layers
of Quadraxial glass roving ,Kevlar under
waterline and partial Carbon reinforcement
in hull deck and bulkheads
�� Epoxy Resin and other highest grade
material with the VECTOR-K infusion
process
�� Divinycell Closed cell foam for strength and
minimal weight
�� Heavy duty marine foam on critical
structure bulkheads for added strength and
stiffness
�� Carbon reinforced fitting areas for rudders,
keels, mast, chain plates and deck fittings
�� Forward and Rearward water tight
compartments with horizontal bulkheads
�� Balanced carbon fibre Spade rudders with
aluminium rudder stock and Jefa bearings
�� Low aspect keels, reinforced for beaching
with Carbon Fibre and Aramide/Twaron or
optionally Dagger Boards
�� Copper Coat anti fouling
DECK FITTINGS:
STAINLESS STEEL, Grade 316:
�� Bow pulpits with seats push pits on stern
�� Brackets for two life ring buoys and bracket
for overboard light
�� Stanchions and stanchion bases
�� Swim ladder
�� Grab rails on coach roof
�� Double guard wires
DECK EQUIPMENT:
�� 2 x Primary winches on console Meissner
44ST
�� 2 x Secondary winches for Genoa 52 ST
�� 1 x Electric winch Meissner 48STE for
Halyards (Manual optional)
�� Tracks, cars, jammers and blocks by
Harken
�� 10 x Aluminium mooring cleats
SAFETY EQUIPMENT:
�� Basic safety equipment: flares, first aid kit
and 2 life rings 2 X escape hatches in
forward bathrooms
�� Automatic engine fire extinguishers
�� 6 life vests
�� 2 safety harnesses
�� 3 fire extinguishers in hulls and saloon
�� 1 fire blanket
�� safety lines Dyneema on deck, saloon and
between hulls
�� 1 safety buoy
PLUMBING:
�� 6 x Automatic electric bilge pumps
�� 1 x Calorifiers (hot water system) 40 litres
dual coil
�� Self draining cockpit
�� Pressurised hot & cold deck shower 2 x
ultra silent sensor max pump
�� 2 x Black water systems with tanks
�� Seawater deck wash and sea water kitchen
faucet
HATCHES AND WINDOWS:
�� 10 Hatches: 11 Port lights: and 8 tinted
Safety glass windows or Lexan opt.
�� Lexan double entrance door
�� GRP locker lids: 3 x foredeck, 2 x cockpit
RIGGING:
�� 7/8th fractional rig
�� Aluminium mast and boom supported by
single spreaders, intermediate and cap
shrouds
�� 2 x single point reefing lines luff pendant
�� LED Navigation lights and VHF antenna
�� Spectra side stays and Dyform front stay
�� Lazy jacks
�� Double purchase main halyard
SAILS:
�� Fully carbon fibre battened main, 3 reef
points, 10,3 oz cross cut Mylar
�� Roller Furling Genoa cross cut Mylar
�� Stack pack with lazy jack
�� Sheets and control lines
COCKPIT:
�� Aluminium steering leather covered
African FastCat 435 Vector-K
Sail Away Specifications


And this boat (subject to change has been noted) as listed above (a copy of your website) weighes 6500 kilos, right?

This is a simple yes or no question OK?

gideon
6th November 2008, 05:26 AM
So now you claim that you have built Maxim and Rayvin cats as well as Fastcats?

Be honest damn it! You bought those for resale in Europe.

You have also claimed that you have an especially light St. Francis 48 due to you having managed the build.
The St. Francis 48 has now metamorphosed into a Fastcat 48 on your website, after you were caught out lying about being the St. Francis agent in Europe when you has been fired a long time previously.

Gideon, today Ian, as have others previously, tried to advise you to stop lying, and try to give straight answers.

But NO, within minutes you are at it again.

I know that you are stubborn, and thick skinned, but I hadn't expected this level of stupidity.

Some folks just don't understand that there might be others around who are nearly as smart as them.:)


Yes

I have infused a maxim 380 and a rayvin 305
and yes I have overseen the build of my st francis 48 and she is very light hull number 004

Greetings

Gideon

catty
6th November 2008, 11:36 AM
Nice to see you here defending your product. We all have our own short comings. I enjoyed researching and learning about some of the building materials and methods you used in the fastcats construction. Hopefully you will continue posting here.

gideon
6th November 2008, 11:44 AM
I will keep on posting info on the way we build and any new development we are doing.
I feel I build a very good product and where I try to make a difference is the fact that I ( try ) to keep on improving .
Greetings

Gideon

gramos
11th November 2008, 04:11 PM
oh jesus ! here we go again- the bullshit has started ! I and possibly many , got so pissed off with all the bickering on "the other multihull site" about weight , delivery ,wait , slate,bitch , give us all a break and DROP IT !Paul, lets have a clean site for real multihull enthusiasts .

ForumAdmin
11th November 2008, 04:37 PM
I really am sorry but I believe in free speech and providing its legal and conforms to certain common sense standards, free speech means just that.

I think everyone knows my own view on the subject of Fastcats and I have clearly stated that as ForumAdmin, it would be unfair of me to get involved in any disputes.

Free speech cuts both ways and that means that Gideon has a right to say anything he wishes and be held accountable for it here.

The great thing is, of course, that the Fastcat Forum is a separate Forum that you can choose to enter or not. The subject is not mixed in with the main forums.

I can only hope after thinking about it that you will agree.:)

ForumAdmin
11th November 2008, 06:13 PM
I thought I would also add this point.

The strength of this forum is and will continue to be its members. I strongly believe that if I ensure that the members are the priority, the forum will prosper. I believe that when this is not the case forums decline.

This means that I should not impose my own views good or bad on the forum - my editorial control is strictly limited and will always be limited. I became very frustrated when I could not voice my opinion elsewhere without the post being removed and an infraction point. It meant that proper discussions could not take place. I do not want to see that here. So my task is to ensure that there are a growing set of tools and facilities to serve the multihull community, it is not to stop, even those I disagree with most, from airing their views and opinions.

imagine2frolic
11th November 2008, 08:45 PM
Did I die, and go to frikking hell? Or is it just dejavu? I think you guys that have a bone to pick with Gideon need to take it to the street, so you can just tar & feather him.::)

I truly do understand exposing the truth, but repeat, repeat, repeat...yikes. In my opinion this will turn members away. I will try again in a few days.....BEST WISHES in getting things out of your systems....all of you including Gideon:confused:...i2f

TYRNTLZRDKING
11th November 2008, 09:01 PM
I truly do understand exposing the truth, but repeat, repeat, repeat...yikes. In my opinion this will turn members away. I will try again in a few days.....BEST WISHES in getting things out of your systems....all of you including Gideon:confused:...i2f

If the truth sends members away, then let it be.
I suspect CF will suit your preference. No need to check in to see if we meet your standards.
Thanks for posting the nude photos of your bare white ass on CF. :)

IreAneY
11th November 2008, 09:19 PM
For those who seem offended by some of the things said, mind you it appears to me that all has quietened down so no need to kick it off again.

Basically

If you don't like what you are likely to read in this thread, then don't read it.
This forum is so designed that you can steer away from it and just read the excellent threads that are being posted, much better than any other forum I have visited.

imagine2frolic
11th November 2008, 09:47 PM
I get an e-mail, and open it. This is it? Slow mentality venting a wee bit of anger. My post was pionting out this same beat the dead horse topic is old. Just like mono vs multi.

To me Mr. Lizard that sounds nearly likely a challenge. Kind of like the smart ass kid on the other side of the fence. If you feel the need to humilate me. You can send me a pm, and get my address if you like.

Perhaps some nude photos of your white ass may attract your desired crowd?
If you are trying to insinuate I am a homo***ual. Possibly you should look at my gallery. My lovely li'l brown love is probably only something you can dream about.

Paul,

That was constructive criticism. Repeating it over & over doesn't make it any more true. It's your site you can do as you wish, and allow who you want to interact with others. I would think long term. BEST WISHES in getting the weeds out of what can possibly be a very successful garden.....i2f;)

TYRNTLZRDKING
11th November 2008, 10:03 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding an email?
I have never emailed you.

I never suggested that you were a homo***ual.
(not that there would be anything wrong with that).

As you know, I was referring to the picture you repeatedly posted on CF of your BWA. I can provide a link if you desire.
When I objected to you posting it over and over, my posts were deleted and I was reprimanded.

ForumAdmin
11th November 2008, 10:07 PM
I have to say that I really do not think that insulting anyone in the way that has been done here is the way to go.

I would appreciate it if members would try not to get so personal in such a manner.

Its possible to go back and delete posts that have been posted in the last few hours so I hope that common sense will prevail and some may consider its best to delete their own posts themselves? It would show consideration.

TYRNTLZRDKING
12th November 2008, 02:31 AM
Paul, It's your site you can do as you wish, and allow who you want to interact with others. I would think long term. BEST WISHES in getting the weeds out of what can possibly be a very successful garden.....i2f;)
:confused::confused::confused:

2hullsgood1hullbad
13th November 2008, 04:17 PM
I agree to an extent that this subject has been done to death on the other forum, but I also feel that it is tremendously important that if someone is using this or any other forum to sell his products, directly or indirectly, he must be taken to task if he is found to be being less than truthful. Some contributors to the other forum even went so far to suggest that it was perfectly normal and acceptable, even expected, for a "salesman" to be untruthful. Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I would perhaps expect a "salesman" to accentuate the positives and downplay the negatives, but I wouldn't expect him to lie to me. Imagine being shown a car by a salesman and being told it will do 150mph, when actually it will only do 100mph - that's lying, pure and simple. You wouldn't buy a car from this man surely?

In this particular case it seems pretty obvious that Gideon has done his business enormous damage by continually being caught out with what could generously be called exaggerations. Anyone considering buying a Fastcat may well have second thoughts having read items on this and the other forum - I know I would. In his shoes I would do all I could to remedy the situation, if that's possible, and that starts with being open and truthful from here on in, and then the bickering that imagine2frolic and gramos object to will naturally cease. :eek::eek::eek:

neelie
17th November 2008, 11:14 PM
C'mon guys, y'all killin' me with these rubbery numbers.

Number of boats built: 65? no! 2? ..who knows.. Lets compromise - I say 3.1416 - as in Pi in the Sky (and for the pedant, lets call it a Rounded Pi in the Sky) ::) .. I was just itching to try out that smiley - I think I earned it.

Weight of Boat: 4500 Kg? 8500?.. Damn it, all those zeroes and fives floating around and then there's that nasty eight just waiting to pounce and lay itself down somewhere inconvenient like at the beginning of the string. So how about we settle on say 4.002602? An entirely appropriate number as its the atomic weight of Helium and every bit meaningless as the claims made on behalf of the boat.

gideon
12th December 2008, 03:11 PM
Yes

TanJera
6th March 2009, 06:40 AM
Is Gideon perhaps related to the other famous SA cat builder, Mr Eric Schoeman?
Hennie

KGP
29th July 2009, 10:23 PM
If we talk about the FastCat 435 and 455 19 are sold 4 are sailing and 4 are under construction at present.
The new 555 is still in the design phase and so is the new 405

Greetings

Gideon

What is the status of these so called 4 other 435/455's that were under construction November 2008? How many of the 19 others that you claim sold have begun the construction process?

By stating 4 are sailing (November 08), I am sure you are including hull number 4, which you did not construct, and in fact is a St. Francis 48. Is that correct?

2hullsgood1hullbad
5th August 2009, 09:02 PM
By stating 4 are sailing (November 08), I am sure you are including hull number 4, which you did not construct, and in fact is a St. Francis 48. Is that correct?

As far as I can work out, Hull no.1 is the one that may or may not have been sold to Andreas. Hull no.2 is a demonstrator that is moored in Holland. Hull no.3 is African Seawing, sold to a Belgian chap. Hull no.4 is Butterfly. The African St Francis Goudsmit Fastcat 48, or whatever the hell it's called, is moored in Holland where it's been on sale for at least four years. Maybe he should rename it, maybe, I don't know, call it a St Francis 48. That and a more realistic lower price and it might even sell...:D

KGP
5th August 2009, 09:11 PM
Hull no.2 is a demonstrator that is moored in Holland.
Gotcha. Forgot about that one I guess. Surprised he's not claiming 5, because as we all know, that 48 is a Fastcat.
::)

Aram Vos
3rd September 2010, 04:34 PM
I am sorry but for legal reasons the poster has requested that I delete this post.
ForumAdmin

TanJera
3rd September 2010, 09:23 PM
The chickens are coming home to roost ..........
::):):(:p:mad::confused:;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek::ee k::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::cool::cool::cool::cool :

Wish I could help though.

Jail the bast....

Hennie

KGP
3rd September 2010, 09:41 PM
Good luck getting water out of a rock. Talk is cheap (but plentiful) with gidders...
Check out his response to Dick and Karen's Dyneema warranty issue (http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/). :eek:

BackonLand
10th November 2010, 11:59 AM
Greetings on the forum.

I just joined the forum after I've been offline for almost 2 years sailing from Norway to Australia on FastCat 435 hull number 1: African Innovation.

It seems like this forum was first created to sink the reputation of Fastcats and Gideon Goudsmit with it. I have owned and sailed well over 20,000 nm miles on a FastCat, so I know one or two things about the boats. I'm not going to dive into a big defense of anyone, or attack anyone, but if anyone has questions for a FastCat owner, you can ask me.

While I was offline, busy sailing, I have been attacked on forums, my ownership of AI has been questioned and my integrity has been questioned. It's interesting to have people that you've never met, sit and make things up about you. At least Paul (Forum creator) has met me once and remembers me as a nice young man :) Hopefully that won't change when I say what it has really been like sailing on a FastCat.

Best regards,

Andreas

In case people are wondering why I'm back on land: I've finished my trip and AI is for sale in Australia.

ForumAdmin
10th November 2010, 12:22 PM
Hi
Firstly this forum was not created to sink the reputation of Fastcats - it was created to allow free speech for multihullers where there was none. Even your post above would have probably been banned on the CE forum.

Secondly your boat is still registered in Gideon's name.

Are you willing to state that Gideon owns no part of your boat and you owe nothing to him for the boat? I ask because of what I discovered when I met those on board your boat in the Leewards.

I believe you are an honourable person and I hope that when the boat is sold you come out of this experience OK.

I have not changed my view on you one bit but if you as a fair person take a look at the problems of the other two Fastcats sold then I am sure you will agree that they Fastcat does not have a good record for customer service.

By the way, I was with Dick & Karen the other day and they stated as they always have that their boat sails very well. That is not the issue.

African Seawing
10th November 2010, 10:06 PM
Hi forum members,

We are the owners of a Fastcat 435 called African Seawing, hull #3. Hating a bit forums where endless discussions lead nowhere, I for once will speak and then go silent again. Forgive me my English since I’m speaking normally Dutch. Me, that is Frank married to Martha. If one has the right to speak, it is us who live on the ASW (African Seawing) for almost 3 years. We know it all, we’ve seen it all. Where do I start?

I’ll start to say that I’m disappointed in the forum in general where the discussions is often tackling the man and not the ball. Despite some troubles we had on our boat, we are happy to have an African Fastcat. Living on this boat is a joy, the space is fabulous and without compare, so is the sailing. All boats we encounter have some degree of problems. So what’s new?

Often in the forums some refer to us as if they know us. Often what is written about us is wrong or badly translated. I would like very much that forum members leave us out of the discussion if they don’t know what they are talking about. Always it’s about two boat owners who are not happy. Well, it’s not us. We are happy.

So, the man, we had our bad times with Gideon. Mostly because of the frustration of the delay in delivery. Now that is over, we can only say that Gideon is very well co-operating with us on all possible issues. Thanks to him we had many things replaced in guaranty which were out of date. Also on a number of things (where I won’t go in detail) he compensated us for the inconvenience very fairly. And all with the speed of light. We have no complains about the service. We have frequent contact via Skype. If there’s a problem he always search for a solution. And he always find one no matter the effort or the time it takes. And remember, this is the busiest man I ever encountered. Do you know other boat builders doing that?

Gideon is a special man. He’s a workaholic. 14 hours a day 7 days a week and I know cause I was there in Durban for 4.5 months. He has one goal, one dream, and that’s to build the ultimate green luxury well sailing owners catamaran. In doing that he sometimes places the clients on a second level. He is also the man with the pink glasses and can see the positive things in a way that he often forgets about the negative things. A man with a high IQ but a bit a low EQ. That’s normal for geniuses. He calls him selves a innovator and that's true but also a copier Japanese style who brings together all the best so far and try to improve it. It made Japan big did’t it? He sometimes exaggerates, that’s his nature. Ones you know, you can live with that. Who is perfect hey?

So, if you don’t like Gideon, good, stay away from him. If you don’t like the Fastcat, good, buy an other boat, but please don’t kill someone who is moving boundaries. He is not even doing this to make him richer, no, opposite, he’s getting poorer. Some people use forums to protect future ‘victims’ (clients) from buying a Fastcat. From what I read, the only target is damaging the firm as hard as they can for some revenge.

Boat #1 has sailed from Norway to Australia without any problems. He crossed many oceans. Still got his rib. Boat#2 was shipped over and is the showboat in the Netherland’s. Boat#3 is us and crossed 2 oceans with no structural problems. Good sailing in almost at home condition on the boat. We still have our rib and running it is no problem. We where the first hybrid boat with internal Solomon motors and are so far pleased with it. Boat#4 seems to have crossed the ocean with no major problems. Those People where on our boat in Madeira. It’s Butterfly and they’re here in Grenada now for one and a half year. Their stories are on their blog. Boat#5 is the Green E-motion and crossed well an ocean, stunning many reporters on trips in Holland. It’s the first hybrid with retractable motors. Boat#6 is almost ready to go. Those owner sailed with us from Madeira to Cape Verde to learn the boat. They where very impressed about the sailing and the living space. Boat#7 is ready (has normal sail drive engines). Those people where for one week on our boat in Madeira. We know the owners of boat#8 and 9 by the private Fastcat forums. From boat owner #6 we know a full carbon boat is infused. It will be Gideons boat#10. Beyond that I lost track. I know and have prove from custumer #6 Gideon is building a 60ft hospital boat. I also know he is building a hybrid motor catamaran in an other factory.

If you want to be part of a new generation of boats and you accept to be a little bit a guinea pig and have a lot of patience, then you're in for a big adventure. Remember you will have an epoxy boat and therefore no osmoses. Always good for resell later on. And if you treat Gideon correctly, he will always be helpful. He will help you to correct all the flows and you will have live long services (at least as long as the man and the company are around)

Considering the magazines, they have to report the momentum of the day. Of course the boats improve and you can not compare hull#5 with hull#1. Every time more then 150 improvements are introduced., even while boats are under construction these improvements are realized. Magazines can not look backwards, they can only report what they see. It’s the product they want to test and not all the gossip. And it is gossip because we don’t complain about bad service. So, all that nonsense of giving up your magazine because of the past makes no sense. The critics he gets not giving good service are wrong. As far as I know only one boat owner and a frustrated forum holder have problems with Gideon. Non of the other clients have problems with the man.

Hope to see more fair play and stay with the boat issues. Look forward not backwards. Support the man who sticks out his neck to make a quantum leap in the boat building. The boating world will benefit later at some stage thanks from the innovations Gideon realises. Already other boat builders are using his innovations like improved foam, basalt fibre, the electronic controllers, the underwater retractable motors, the lithium ion converters and a specially purpose build compression beam now also used by other yachtbuilders.

Finally, I’m not paid to write this but the man does not deserve the treatment he gets on the forums. Not only that, there are some people who want to ruin the firm but also those people don’t mind at all to bring down the value of all the boats regardless if those owners are satisfied with there boats and the treatment of African Fastcats (by the name Gideon Goudsmit). That’s the only reason I took the pen to put things right en to let you hear an other bell.

And now I go silent again.

ps. Had placed 3 replay on the electric drive topic to correct some misunderstandings.

pss. I can see Pauls boat from here. So no excuse for not checking te story.

ForumAdmin
10th November 2010, 10:29 PM
Gideon has simply been getting what he deserves.
Gideon latest escapade is a court case with a client in Holland and Gideon not turning up....... what are we to make of that?

You are more than welcome to come over to our boat for a drink and chat - we leave in the morning but will be back in a few weeks.

imagine2frolic
11th November 2010, 12:17 AM
I see that Gideon is watching as I post. This will get interesting::).......i2f

ForumAdmin
11th November 2010, 12:48 AM
Gideon
The coordination of two Fastcat 'Owners' posting almost together indicates some form of coordination.

In particular when one was already registered under their own name and then joined again under another user name.

When I last met you you over two years ago you stated you were building 20 boats a year, so by now we should have passed 40 boats built - where are they?

It would be much easier if you just posted here.:)

African Seawing
11th November 2010, 02:12 AM
Hmmm, very hard to stay quite.

Still playing the man hey Paul, not the bal. Is this a Catamaran forum or is this a witch hunting forum.

Gideon has simply been getting what he deserves. Deserves what Paul?

Gideon latest escapade is a court case with a client in Holland and Gideon not turning up. Non of your business Paul. That’s a private matter. What if he wins hey? What if he loos, does that makes the Fastcat boat bad?

Wrote my letter 7 days ago and wanted to think all off it over to be sure what I was writing. When I saw Andreas letter I thought now it’s time to post. No Gideon involved in my case. Again, you see ghosts. Go on Paul .....

Indeed I may have been logged in before but I lost the coordinates and I logged in again. Is that a crime? Ghosts again Paul , getting a habit hey.

Here we go again on numbers of boats. Or any numbers. Gideon fantasize some times, that’s his natures, does that make the Fastcat a less boat. Again playing the man. You doing well Paul.

Hope to see soon something about the Fastcat itselves, as a boat ........on what supposed to be a boat forum.

BackonLand
11th November 2010, 10:54 AM
Are you willing to state that Gideon owns no part of your boat and you owe nothing to him for the boat? I ask because of what I discovered when I met those on board your boat in the Leewards.
I own 100% of the boat, but it took me some time to pay down what I owed Gideon on the boat. So when I cast off from the Netherlands I hadn't paid AI (my boat) off fully, and when you met AI in the Leewards I still owed some money, but at that point in time I owed very little. For the last year and a half she has been all mine and I owe Gideon nothing, except my gratitude for how he has treated me.

It is true that she is still registered in Rainbow Nation Ship Building, but that was originally for tax reasons, then in order to get the cheaper insurance a company can get.

I've sail by the skin of my teeth, meaning I need to stretch ever cent I use, something as simple as re-registering the boat would have cost me more than I wanted to, especially when there was no need to.

I hope that clears up some misconceptions.

- Andreas

BackonLand
11th November 2010, 11:16 AM
Gideon
The coordination of two Fastcat 'Owners' posting almost together indicates some form of coordination.
For what it's worth, Gideon never told me to post anything, but told me about this forum. I wanted to see what people were writing and felt compelled to write my side when I saw what was written, since I actually know "slightly" more about FastCats than most people here, with the exception of Frank on African Seawing. I haven't spoken to or emailed Frank since I met him when I was in the Netherlands in the summer of 2008, so to call it a coordinated "attack" is a bit far fetched.

I also noticed there was a discussion about the Africa Cat dinghies ... My yellow dinghy rocked and was the envy of most of the boats I sailed with on the Pacific crossing, because it was so light. Certainly most of the cats I met wanted one, but I didn't want to sell. I certainly had no problems maneuvering her like they've had on Butterfly. It could of course just mean that I am a superior helmsman ;)

- Andreas

sigmasailor
11th November 2010, 03:10 PM
I also noticed there was a discussion about the Africa Cat dinghies ... My yellow dinghy rocked and was the envy of most of the boats I sailed with on the Pacific crossing, because it was so light. Certainly most of the cats I met wanted one, but I didn't want to sell. I certainly had no problems maneuvering her like they've had on Butterfly. It could of course just mean that I am a superior helmsman ;)

- Andreas

Hi Andreas, we never met but like you I have been following this (and other) websites for some time. First of a question: are you back on land really?

I got to know Gideon a couple of months ago and he was kind enough to invite me for a test sail on Green Emotion (the Fastcat with retractable props). It was simply a wonderful day; these were my (firsthand) experiences:

As it happened the test sail I was invited for was on the second day of the interview Chris carried out for his article in YW. What I saw was a beautiful cat with a perfectly working hybrid (and sail) system. We started from Hoorn and left the marina under electric power (nice: no noise, vibration) and had a really nice sail to Amsterdam. I was made to believe cats wouldn't point (the Lagoon proved this) but was amazed she would continue to sail at 30 degrees against the wind. Allowing some more room (50 -60 degrees) made Green Emotion pick up speed up to 8-9 knots and all that in (far) less that 15 knots of wind (like 3-4 Bft); I didn't see a boat faster than us the whole day.

In Amsterdam we had to pass a bridge, a lock and the crowds of Sail Amsterdam 2010. The boat effortlessly did all this on just electric power; Gideon demonstrated her top speed of 8.4 knots (the instruments showed she could maintain this speed for some 30 minutes so we slowed down to a more relaxed speed). The lack of noise and vibration were impressive. Oh, while in the locks we showed off by raising the props and removing lots of plants which are growing in the Markermeer; beats snorkeling any time.

Chris used the light weight dingy which performed as it should. I think it had a 10Hp 4stroke engine with which it plained easily carrying two persons. The dingy was surprisingly light and was stored on the trampoline. The 4stroke engine felt heavier than its 2 stroke Tomatsu counterpart I'm more familiar with. I wouldn't even try lifting a normal dingy on the trampoline but with the light weight version it really was easy.

And no: I haven't been in contact with Gideon for some weeks now, nor has he asked to post this. Like Frank and Andreas I want to show some positive comments on one of the nicest cats I have seen. I also happen to think Gideon is a nice guy who deserves a fair chance to market his, more or less unique, hybrid concept. Keeps me wondering how many 'bashers' have really sailed on a Fastcat or know Gideon firsthand.

Eric

bigwow
11th November 2010, 04:54 PM
Looks like someone has been reading up on the tactics of Rommel and are trying to get Paul in a pincer movement



::)

IreAneY
11th November 2010, 05:40 PM
How many aliases does Gidders have :D:D:D:rolleyes:

ForumAdmin
11th November 2010, 11:40 PM
Ok -now anchored in Carriacous and have a liitle time to respond.

I shall try to answer ll the points;-

African Seawing
I read translations on your own blog some time ago that were less than favourable to the problems you e


Gideon latest escapade is a court case with a client in Holland and Gideon not turning up. Non of your business Paul. That’s a private matter. What if he wins hey? What if he loos, does that makes the Fastcat boat bad?

Wrong - its a matter of public record. It is not private and given the history of fabrication which you seem to accept as Ok, the cae may well be a pointer to how gideon treats some customers.


If Gideon wins by some miracle after not turning up to defenc himself then you can be sure that will be reported just as him losing will be reported.


Here we go again on numbers of boats. Or any numbers. Gideon fantasize some times, that’s his natures, does that make the Fastcat a less boat. Again playing the man. You doing well Paul.

So in your book it is Ok forf a boat builder to invents statisitcs in order to impress customers??????? That is what you are excusing and i find that incredible.


Hope to see soon something about the Fastcat itselves, as a boat ........on what supposed to be a boat forum.

The integrity of a boat builder is the direct concern of every potential customer to claim otherwise is absurd.

I think that answers all your points.

I have every respect for you so please do not take my defence if this pincer movement in a personal way:)

ForumAdmin
11th November 2010, 11:48 PM
Andreas

I
own 100% of the boat, but it took me some time to pay down what I owed Gideon on the boat. So when I cast off from the Netherlands I hadn't paid AI (my boat) off fully, and when you met AI in the Leewards I still owed some money, but at that point in time I owed very little. For the last year and a half she has been all mine and I owe Gideon nothing, except my gratitude for how he has treated me.

I do not dispute a word you say but it deos seem incredible that for what was a little money owed Gideon grabbed back your boat in the lLeewards.


It is true that she is still registered in Rainbow Nation Ship Building, but that was originally for tax reasons, then in order to get the cheaper insurance a company can get.


But it is still in the name of gideon today and not you - yes or no?

If yes then I ask you for your owns sake to consider changing that.

I have nothing against you Andreas I think you are a straight regular chap.

However the deplorable record of false claim and fantasies spun by Gideon with the only apparent reason being to mislead customers means that you must try to stand back and understand why Gideon has had such a dramatic reaction in the market place.







- Andreas

ForumAdmin
11th November 2010, 11:50 PM
BigWow

Looks like someone has been reading up on the tactics of Rommel and are trying to get Paul in a pincer movement

But remember Rommel lost to the British and the british had Ultra and knew every move Rommel was making:):):)

jkd
12th November 2010, 01:20 AM
If you want to be part of a new generation of boats and you accept to be a little bit a guinea pig and have a lot of patience, ................. And if you treat Gideon correctly, he will always be helpful. He will help you to correct all the flows and you will have live long services (at least as long as the man and the company are around)


Please forgive me if I have interpreted incorrectly, as I know you have stated that English is not your first language.

You are suggesting that the buyer of a product needs to defer to the seller in order to be granted the right to purchase or operate a revolutionary design? I suggest that this is a bit parallel to the manner that Bernie Madoff 'marketed' his 'innovative products', and we know how that turned out. This is a bit of marketing in the manner of the emperor's clothes.
If the marketing is based on 'volume' and 'proven' design it is one thing but if the buyer is aware that each is a "one off" and knows it, there is a different dynamic involved.
I personally think that some of his ideas are novel and workable but really, the man needs to do a better job of managing his marketing to give a truer sense of what he is selling or there will always be questions of his motives.


John

BackonLand
12th November 2010, 07:09 AM
I do not dispute a word you say but it deos seem incredible that for what was a little money owed Gideon grabbed back your boat in the lLeewards.Where on Earth did you get that from? I had two friends of mine captain AI for 3 charters, while I worked for Royal Caribbean to make a little extra money. Now I know they would never have said what you claim, so you must wildly have misunderstood them... Probably a language barrier since they were Norwegian and have only had English since 2nd grade in school.




But it is still in the name of gideon today and not you - yes or no?It is not in his name, but in a company he owns.



If yes then I ask you for your owns sake to consider changing that.
I thank you for your concern, but I have no trust issues when it comes to Gideon.



However the deplorable record of false claim and fantasies spun by Gideon with the only apparent reason being to mislead customers means that you must try to stand back and understand why Gideon has had such a dramatic reaction in the market place. It's funny that you base all your warranty claims on what has happened to Butterfly ... Have you ever considered that they are over-dramatizing? I'm not saying they are, but to base everything on 1 owner, when all the other owners are happy? When it comes to the court case, I know nothing about it and honestly don't care, because it really doesn't affect me.

- Andreas

ForumAdmin
12th November 2010, 11:02 AM
Ok so now we have a situation were the boat is registered to a company owned by Gideon but you are so trustful of Gideon that you leave it like that!!!! I find that incredible and not a normal sale in anyway. It ties you to Gideon in anything other than a normal buyer/seller relationship. Can you not yourself understand how that looks?


The false claims of Gideon are not restricted to B&B. I changed my pans and flew to Amsterdam because of a series of false claims made by Gideon. I was told that he had crossed the Atlantic with an average speed of over 10 knots (over 240 miles a day). I was told i would be boat 13 out of the 20 boats he was building a year and so on. Gideon has made many claims not associated with B&B that have proved false. He has claimed boat builds that never were - the Fastcat 48 being a St Francis 48 and so on.


When it comes to the court case, I know nothing about it and honestly don't care, because it really doesn't affect me.

So if it does not effect you why are you here discussing these points?

therapy
13th November 2010, 12:29 AM
, but to base everything on 1 owner, when all the other owners are happy?

- Andreas

All the otherrr.........ummmm..........owner = singular.........meaning one (1) I believe.

errr. Have I missed something. Ummmm.......

BackonLand
13th November 2010, 11:12 AM
All the otherrr.........ummmm..........owner = singular.........meaning one (1) I believe.

errr. Have I missed something. Ummmm.......

ummm ..... errr ... yeah, I think you ehhh ... mmm .... did ... Frank chimed in earlier and ummm.... eeeerrr ... He's a happy owner too. Wow, doesn't two people make it plural or have am I mistaking? I'm afterall just a dumb foreigner that doesn't understand the intricacies of the English language.

ColdFusion
13th November 2010, 04:43 PM
...but to base everything on 1 owner, when all the other owners are happy?


Frank chimed in earlier and ummm.... eeeerrr ... He's a happy owner too. Wow, doesn't two people make it plural or have am I mistaking? I'm afterall just a dumb foreigner that doesn't understand the intricacies of the English language.

I must admit, "all the other owners" does sound as though there are rather a lot, when the reality is that there were only two others, as far as I knew, when Gideon tried to tell me otherwise, and from what I've read, one of them has had numerous and ongoing problems with their Fastcat and they are far from "happy" with Gideon's response to their warranty claims.

therapy
13th November 2010, 11:47 PM
ummm ..... errr ... yeah, I think you ehhh ... mmm .... did ... Frank chimed in earlier and ummm.... eeeerrr ... He's a happy owner too. Wow, doesn't two people make it plural or have am I mistaking? I'm afterall just a dumb foreigner that doesn't understand the intricacies of the English language.

Well then I guess that makes three total, though I have heard different.

Pretty small sample for statistics I guess.

African Seawing
15th November 2010, 02:16 PM
You are not helping the existing Fastcat boat owners Paul, not even Butterfly as by always looking to the past, nagging, nagging and nagging the same old stuff you are bringing down the value of our boat's. And that's far more then your 1400£ loss. Far far more.

What service considers, at St Maarten a package will wait for us with 8 new bilge pumps, epoxy poles for the trampoline, all in guaranty. Also new Dynema SK90 for 50% of the price of the old one. That's a fair deal considering we will have the net for 4 years and 8 years guaranty was provided.

The bilge pumps where connected in the bilge and that was a wrong approach leaving only 15cm wire on the bilge pumps. Salt water then capilated into the pumps. So, I get 8 new ones.

The trampoline was my doing building this system myself in Durban. At the time then we all seemed to be happy with it. Unfortunaly we had no time record yet. 2 mistakes where made, 1 the RVC poles should have been polished, 2 the pulling ropes should not come in contact with the net. That's all solved now and I've been well compensated for an error where I was on the first hand myself.

Gideons seems to be not telling the full trouth and exaggerations are hopefully in the past. He had to learn himself not to do so. It is proven he does not do that anymore since you can only dig up old stuff. I think amnesty is not in your book.

Only one boat seems to have bad service and we all now how that happed hey Paul. You can not expect to have full good service from people who's only goal is to prevent Gideon to sell one more boat, can you? You and Butterfly call that "warning future buyers from becoming victims of Gideon". Well I think you have succeeded Paul. There's enough rubbish to be found on internet. You can stop now and try to get in real time modus now.

I think that my loss in second hand sale would be something around 100.000€. Over all the boat sold so far we get near 1.000.000€. Even Butterfly who told me they don’t care anymore about the value of there boat will one day do.


Thank you for helping us Paul. Please stop helping us.

Frank

Don’t play the man, play the ball.http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yoga O
15th November 2010, 05:15 PM
Was the Dyneema SK90 replacement due to UV damage?

African Seawing
15th November 2010, 05:54 PM
Was the Dyneema SK90 replacement due to UV damage?

Ha, first sensible conversation on behalf Fastcat.

I'm getting now SK90 witch seems to be improved for UV. My old Dyneema has a smaller grid, don't no the type. An no, not yet UV was the problem but the shaving over the RVS poles and the pulling ropes. Whenever you step on it things start to move and therefore shave. Both problems are now solved. Eventually UV will kill the nets but the firm gives an 8 year warranty on that so they must be convinced that it can stand UV for a long time.

I'm not an expert. The nets can be found on internet via Google or Gideon can tell a few things about it by now after all the experience we all have now. Gideon@africancats.com (Gideon@africancats.com)
Frank

Don’t play the man, play the ball.http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

African Seawing
15th November 2010, 06:01 PM
Well then I guess that makes three total, though I have heard different.

Pretty small sample for statistics I guess.

You damened right. Specialy if only one boat is complaining. That's a very small sample don't you think?

Frank

Don’t play the man, play the ball.http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yoga O
15th November 2010, 06:05 PM
OK, so it was a "chafing" problem where the ropes that attached to the "RVS" poles (what is "RVS"?) chafed when this rope was attached to the Dyneema? Sorry, I am not completely following.

How will you attach the new Dyneema to prevent this from happening in the future?

Fair Winds,
Mike

sigmasailor
15th November 2010, 06:48 PM
RVS is roestvaststaal = SS or Stainless Steel (316 or 304).

ForumAdmin
15th November 2010, 07:13 PM
Frank
I am not sure which world you live in or if you have now developed Stockholm syndrome.

You agree about the misleading information.
You agree about the fantasies.
You yourself on your own blog have suffered terrible quality problems - for example the cross beam failing to join the two hulls!!!

You just brush all under the carpet and that is incredible. Anyone reading your posts and blog would in my opinion be put off buying a fastcat!!!:)


Gideons lies and exaggerations are hopefully in the past.
There you state he has lied, you state he has excaggerated so who is to balme for the reaction? Those who call his bluff on those lies???:)

:
he had to learn himself not to do so

Well gee abd by gosh at his age he has to learn not to do what most people manage to learn in their early childhood!!!!:):):)



It is proven he does not do that anymore since you can only dig up old stuff. I think amnesty is not in your book.

What about the new stuff like the court case that he does not even turn upo to defend himself at???


Only one boat seems to have bad service and we all now how that happed hey Paul. You can not expect to have full good service from people who's only goal is to prevent Gideon to sell one more boat, can you? You and Butterfly call that "warning future buyers from becoming victims of Gideon". Well I think you have succeeded Paul. There's enough rubbish to be found on internet. You can stop now and try to get in real time modus now.

Your own boat Frank has had major problems!!!! Read your own blog.


I think that my loss in second hand sale would be something around 100.000€. Over all the boat sold so far we get near 1.000.000€. Even Butterfly who told me they don’t care anymore about the value of there boat will one day do.

I have many times stated that once sorted i am sure they are good boats and all the owners agree they sail well.

are you wanting to join Andreas is selling your boat?

If so that would mean the 2/3rds of all fastcats are on the market. If that is the case at least I can understand your motives for these posts.

Do not forget frank - i was sitting happily without a thought for Gideon in my head when i was asked to help in a Court Case for his latest victims. Then the massive misleading article appeared in a UK magazine who did not know about the history of what you call lies and I have always called untruths.

All gideon has to do is behave to B&B as well as he has behaved to you and maybe he can start putting the past behind him.


Thank you for helping us Paul. Please stop helping us.

African Seawing
15th November 2010, 09:05 PM
i was asked to help in a Court Case for his latest victims

May I ask what kind of help was asked you to do? Being not involved, being not there when some sort of contract was signed. Would like to know.

the massive misleading article appeared in a UK magazine

What was the massive misleading article all about Paul? Something wrong with the numbers of preformance of Green E-motion? Your not refering to the past again are you? Reporters are not interested in the past nor do they know the past, do they? Unless they read your forum. Pissed of by a positive article hey, that's the way I start to know you by now.

Frank

Don't play the man, play the ball :)

ForumAdmin
15th November 2010, 09:19 PM
Frank - I am getting a little fed up with your attitude
I was asked by the lawyer of the clients to allow some information that I had provided to be used in the case. Are you not believing me?

Gideon has a long history of false claims - you yourself call him a liar and anyone reading that article would think that he was at the leading edge of yacht design when in practice all he manages to lead in is faulty construction such as was the case in your own boat - did not the cross beam part from the hulls?

You may be happy to mislead innocent people - I am not. If i can I warn them.

Please stop posting the hypocritical not playing the man but the ball - you have played the man very much with me.

What you are claiming is that people should be happy t0 buy a boat from a man that you call a liar, a fantasist and a person who treats customers like guinea pigs ...... that is totally irrational. You should take a step back and ask yourself why any rational person would want to deal with the person that YOU describe.

smj
15th November 2010, 09:28 PM
What you are claiming is that people should be happy t0 buy a boat from a man that you call a liar, a fantasist and a person who treats customers like guinea pigs ...... that is totally irrational. You should take a step back and ask yourself why any rational person would want to deal with the person that YOU describe.

I think that about says it.

therapy
15th November 2010, 10:10 PM
If they knew at the time they were Guinea Pigs and contracted anyway then it would be OK.

I am not sure they knew all these were a brand new trial build.

I seem to think they were told that many had been built if not the same then similarly on the production line.

I bet they were told that lots of boats had been built too.

bigwow
16th November 2010, 06:50 AM
Is someone posting under a couple of pseudonyms on this subject?:(

ColdFusion
16th November 2010, 08:58 AM
Is someone posting under a couple of pseudonyms on this subject?:(

I'm glad I'm not the only one finding the sudden defence of Gideon a bit suspicious. I'm also suspicious of the new users on the ybw thread that registered there just to make posts to defend Gideon.

Talbot
16th November 2010, 11:49 AM
I dont think all these defence of Gidders posts are suspicious, but what I do suspect is that some owners have suddenly discovered the downside of getting assistance to nail down the warranty work - that second hand value has plumetted.

If I was an insurance company and read up about some of these serious defects (for example the cross beam defect affecting 30% of the vessels) I would be adding a big hike on the premiums.

Present owners seem to be wanting to have all the advantages of a big publicity campaign to assist in gettiing the warranty work, without recognising the consequences.

Anyone who checks on Paul's career would see that he has a history of support and work to make builders own up to their problems, and that those builders who ignore the initially nice approach eventually recognise their error, or go out of business (check Traders in UK)

bigwow
16th November 2010, 11:54 AM
I am of the opinion that they are orchestrated, it is too much of a coincidence that they all appear simultaneously. :(

ForumAdmin
16th November 2010, 12:25 PM
All it has done is make the matter worse for Fastcats not better.

The two owners in question should stop denying the past and concentrate on making sure their boats are sound and can pass any customer survey. I am sure one all the work is done they are fine boats that sail well.

Thank you for the kind comments about my history. It was a pity that Trader went onto defraud more owners and totally shatter their dreams. The BBC program I think managed to deal a fatal blow to the family business that grew out of those ashes and possibly prevent a new cycle of victims.

African Seawing
16th November 2010, 10:24 PM
Hi Talbot

If I was an insurance company and read up about some of these serious defects (for example the cross beam defect affecting 30% of the vessels) I would be adding a big hike on the premiums.


Let us analise how easy it is to create drama and alow me to create an exaple of drama myselve.

First, there are 7 Fastcats present at the moment. One, as you say, with a crossbeam problem. In my calculation that's about 14%. Hey, looks already better.

Let me explain the problem. Crossbeams are attached on adapting blocs since the hull is not parallel to the other hull. To keep the bolds and nuts in line you need also to have those adapting blocs on the inside of the hull. They didn’t have done the inside adapting bloks. As a result, the bolds started to adapt themselves bending a little. That resulted in a gap on the outside upper adapting bloc. You can see pictures on my blog somewhere. What I did was re-enforcing the inside of the hull with 3 layers of the thickest glass I found. Filled the gap with resin and laminated the outside adapting bloc in with the outside hull. After an ocean and now more that 10.000M not a single crack appeared.

I blow the wistle on that one towards Butterfly. They have now also the inside adapting blocs as all others Fastcats for that matter. I told Butterfly many things and at that time they were greatfull for that.

So, at the present 0% problems with Fastcat crossbeams. There is always a learning curve on building boats. I was compensated with 25kg basalt and a month salary (also for other stuff) by Gideon.

Now my turn to create drama. It's easy.

If I was an insurance company I would be more concerned about a St Fransis 48 (Pauls) who suffered 3 electric fires on one ocean trip. A crossbeam failure can result in loosing a mast, a fire can result in loosing the whole ship. Fixing a crossbeam is quit strait forward, fixing electrical problems can be too but where does it stop.

You see, how easy that was. All over this forum this play is going on. I would very much like to see it stops and no more assumptions or guesses start to become a life of there own.

Frank

African Seawing
16th November 2010, 11:01 PM
You cannot change the past nor change who Gideon is but you can change your boat to ensure that she is a sound vessel that functions well and is a pride to own.

This statement I copied out of the YBW forum and is from Paul.

It makes me very happy cause there are finally some statements what I try to prove for so long now.

Indeed, we can not change the past. So please let the past rest and look forward as I was asking in my first long letter.

We can not change Gideon. Right you are again. So what do we do with this. Either it mains you will have to confront Gideon over and over again with who he is and what he have done until the end of your days. Or we accept who he is and let him build that perfect green phenomenal catamaran.

Name me one Fastcat owner who bought a boat because of his numbers (in general). I give you a tip, it's not Butterfly being the first on paper to buy a boat. No witch hunting in those days. Give you a second tip, it's not us. I have chosen the boat and nothing else. So give me a name?

Cause that's what it's all about hey, misleading the costomer. To be fair, if any costumer should choose a boat on that criteria, then I feel very sorry about this customer.

Frank

Yoga O
16th November 2010, 11:19 PM
Frank,

Stop being engaged in this silly tit-for-tat. It is just unbecoming dude! Just because another boat has a serious problem does not mean that your boat's serious problem(s) may be ignored.

Keep on telling us about the good things about your boat. About challenges you faced and overcame, or even instances where you believe the build of the boat surpassed your expectations.

FWIW, the loss of a crossbeam can compromise and cost you the entire vessel. The loss of the mast can also compromise and cause the loss of the entire vessel depending on the conditions.

Fair Winds,
Mike

African Seawing
17th November 2010, 12:48 AM
Frank,

Stop being engaged in this silly tit-for-tat. It is just unbecoming dude! Just because another boat has a serious problem does not mean that your boat's serious problem(s) may be ignored.

Keep on telling us about the good things about your boat. About challenges you faced and overcame, or even instances where you believe the build of the boat surpassed your expectations.

FWIW, the loss of a crossbeam can compromise and cost you the entire vessel. The loss of the mast can also compromise and cause the loss of the entire vessel depending on the conditions.

Fair Winds,
Mike

In general I agree with you. But I've been over and over put in defence by drama stories that are not correct concerning my boat.

Take the crossbeam, never never there was any danger of loosing the cross beam. You don't just pull out a back plate 6 big bolts connection out of the hull knowing that the forces are upwards to the mast. There where non cracks what how ever on the outer skin of the hull that would prove a pulling out of the cross beam was the case. Vertically almost, can you imaging something like that? Why do I feel the need to defend all the drama that is created by people who don't know what they are talking about. I deeply wich I would not have to defend myself and the boat like that. Sure I was not happy about the event but I deal pro active with the matter and got well compensated by Fastcat. I’m I not aloud to tell good endings?

Telling the good things, please read my blog where I'm honest in telling everything. Also the mishaps. But please forum members, don't blow up the story and please remember the Google translation is not always the correct way of putting the story correctly. I translated a while the blog in English but it came to much of a task for me to keep on doing this. Sorry about that.

I will keep the blog updated with the goods and the bad. Please don't take advantage of the bad to use in some Gideon war where I don't want to be part of.

Replaying if I want to sell my boat. Yes, one day for sure like all boat owners one day will do. But not yet now. It's to much fun to sail this boat and live on it. I feel very sadly the Fastcat itself is going trough the mud because of some behaviour of Gideon. How does that help me to enjoy my Fastcat? and keep the value up to the point this boat deserves.

Frank

Yoga O
17th November 2010, 01:18 AM
In general I agree with you. But I've been over and over put in defence by drama stories that are not correct concerning my boat.

I don't know all the details certainly, but perhaps the translation is defeating your purpose. It sounds as though you have put things right AND been supported in doing so by Gideon, but it is hard for me to completely understand why you have been treated so well, while B&B have not.

Regarding the crossbeam specifically, help me understand. Was this a problem that you identified and received support from Gideon on fixing it. In other words, did he say "here is how to fix it." and "thank you for finding this error, we will change how we build all future boats to prevent this from happening again."? Certainly, you are allowed to tell that all turned out well in the end (just as Paul has done with SFM).


Take the crossbeam, never never there was any danger of loosing the cross beam...
Sure I was not happy about the event but I deal pro active with the matter and got well compensated by Fastcat. I’m I not aloud to tell good endings?

Telling the good things, please read my blog where I'm honest in telling everything. Also the mishaps. But please forum members, don't blow up the story and please remember the Google translation is not always the correct way of putting the story correctly. I translated a while the blog in English but it came to much of a task for me to keep on doing this. Sorry about that.

... I feel very sadly the Fastcat itself is going trough the mud because of some behaviour of Gideon. How does that help me to enjoy my Fastcat? and keep the value up to the point this boat deserves.

Frank

On this last point, I can only say that you are asking the wrong people for relief. It is Gideon that you should send this request to. As I said in another post, Gideon needs to tell us that he has been "too enthusiastic" and "over-stating" the facts - NOT YOU!

It is Gideon who needs to do the right thing and help B&B fix the problems on their boat and/or compensate them as he has compensated you.

The members of this forum want to see FastCat succeed on the same terms that other manufacturers succeed, not through false, misleading claims. Make quality products, support them, deal with the original owners honestly, admit mistakes and correct them, be innovative, etc, etc.

Fair Winds,
Mike

ForumAdmin
17th November 2010, 01:21 AM
Frank
Your explanation of the cross beam problem is a clear demonstraion of how a structurally defective boat was supplied to you. After that the lesson was learnt and that is good.

I have been totally open an honest plud even handed in the manner in which I dealt with my own problems (on a St Francis 50 by thye way not a 48). I am not very happyeith the boat.

So what is the difference?

A great deal my builder does not fantasize, tell untruths, provide misleading information to lure customers in etc and there yhou have the problem. To put matters right Gideon has to change and he can start by putting the latest client out of their need to fight through the legal repossession orders and just give them their deposit and costs to ate back.

There is no evidence that Gideon has mended his ways and there is no real evidence that Gideon can build a great boat.

I understand a fourth boat has been launched and is currently under trial. That makes 4 sales in total.

I have no doubt at all that when fixed the boats a very good and sail well.

I repeat my question - is yours for sale? If so open a thread explaining what has been done to it, how sound it is and then arrange a survey and publish it.

jkd
17th November 2010, 01:34 AM
I feel very sadly the Fastcat itself is going trough the mud because of some behaviour of Gideon. How does that help me to enjoy my Fastcat? and keep the value up to the point this boat deserves.
Frank

Frank,
As an outsider I have to agree that you need to just enjoy what you have and hope for the best later. With a limited production run vessel the boat name is firmly attached to the name and reputation of the builder. If he is seen as unfair or uncaring to even a few it reflects on the entire fleet in a more pronounced manner.
If FP or Lagoon mess up a couple of boats their entire line does not become effected to the extent that a small run build does. Right or wrong its reality.
I wish you the best in the future, but maybe your best move forward is to ask the builder to please help out all owners as well as he has helped you to protect the value their and your investment?

John

Talbot
17th November 2010, 08:35 AM
To me there are four issues

Is the boat a good design evidence would suggest yes.

Is the builder reliable evidence would suggest that there are some shortcomings

When the boat was sold was the information provided clear and unambiguous Evidence would suggest a problem

Is the warranty work being carried out quickly and to the satisfaction of the owner All the blogs from all the owners of these boats would indicate some severe problems in this area

Can a fully sorted Fastcat be a good purchase All the evidence would suggest that a well built and fully sorted fastcat should be a good boat

African Seawing
17th November 2010, 04:32 PM
Is the warranty work being carried out quickly and to the satisfaction of the owner All the blogs from all the owners of these boats would indicate some severe problems in this area

I'll give up. No matter how many times we've explained that the service on African Innovation en African Seawing is good an correct, always some one pups up keeping the lie alive.

Just like the smart Andreas, I will leave this forum cause nobody wants’ to listen to the cry out loud of keeping to the facts.

Instead of being happy, finally 2 owners speaks up, the only replies we've got is being attacked for telling something positive.

Since Paul himself has stated "we can not change Gideon", the only solution of this forum is to bring down the firm African Fastcat and to make sure he won't sell an other boat.

Good luck to you all.
Frank

bigwow
17th November 2010, 05:46 PM
Since Paul himself has stated "we can not change Gideon", the only solution of this forum is to bring down the firm African Fastcat and to make sure he won't sell an other boat.

Good luck to you all.
Frank


Unfortunately Gideon is African Fastcat, not a separate entity.

Yoga O
17th November 2010, 05:59 PM
Is the warranty work being carried out quickly and to the satisfaction of the owner All the blogs from all the owners of these boats would indicate some severe problems in this area

I'll give up. No matter how many times we've explained that the service on African Innovation en African Seawing is good an correct, always some one pups up keeping the lie alive.

Just like the smart Andreas, I will leave this forum cause nobody wants’ to listen to the cry out loud of keeping to the facts.

Instead of being happy, finally 2 owners speaks up, the only replies we've got is being attacked for telling something positive.

Since Paul himself has stated "we can not change Gideon", the only solution of this forum is to bring down the firm African Fastcat and to make sure he won't sell an other boat.

Good luck to you all.
Frank


I am reminded of something....YES!

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!"

Fair Winds,
Mike

ForumAdmin
17th November 2010, 06:14 PM
Frank - I even offered to make a free video (if at all possible) to help you sell your boat providing what is shown is all true and not misleading. I did this on the YBW forum.

Andreas left because he basically wanted to suppress other opinions. All his posts stand as do your as declarations of the good service you testify to.

Who has at anytime stated that you did not receive good service?
Who argued that? Nobody that i could see.

What was being pointed out was that there is no evidence that gideon has changed and in fact there is current pointers he has not I(he current court case).

No matter what you do when you yourself call the boat builder a liar etc etc you cannot expect to escape the cloud that he in behaving this way hangs over you. Only he cn clear this cloud with his actions.

The problem for you is that the facts have been stated and you do not like them - in fact you do not even like your own 'facts' when it comes to describing Gideon.

There are two current issues. the first is the current court case - he could just settle that instead of choosing to not even turn up to Court and face reality. The second is the article in the UK magazine that in my opinion is very misleading and it needed to have the dangers of believing it all pointed out. Maybe he should go about submitting his latest boat to a series of independent testers to do an in depth review and prove his points but even if that came out all positive there is still the historic Gideon problem and regardless of what you think people judge builders by their actions to date.

I truly think, as has already been pointed out, that we would all like Fastcats to be a success. We would like them to have good customer relations and build the advanced boats they promise. What we cannot tolerate is more misleading stuff such as in the YM article.

The funny part about you leaving the forum because nobody would listen is absurd - members have listened, they have not even disagreed with your service history - they simply have tried to explain that Gideon needs to change in order to put it all right. Gideon could be working with us all rather than standing with his heads in the clouds.

sigmasailor
18th November 2010, 08:53 AM
Hi there all you Fastcat lovers,

Good job! After managing to bash Gideon off this site you now, within a week, managed to frustrate both Frank and Andreas to such a level that I doubt if they will ever reply. Pity; the only lines to people who really know (firsthand) what it is like to own a Fastcat have been expertly cut.

And why; still didn't get an answer. All I keep reading are the same old stories.
How many of you have actually seen the latest version of the Fastcat? The YW article is a collection of facts that I believe cannot be disputed.

Gideon is Fastcat? Fastcat employs lots of people apart from Gideon; please remember that.

Eric (sailed on Green Emotion once and loved it).

bigwow
18th November 2010, 10:54 AM
Gideon is Fastcat? Fastcat employs lots of people apart from Gideon; please remember that.




Gideon is the decision maker, and the unacceptable face of Fastcat, not his unfortunate employees :(

ForumAdmin
18th November 2010, 03:51 PM
Eric
Nobody has knocked off the two Fastcat owners - they freely expressed their opinions and those opinions stand on record for anyone to see offering a balance to the negative opinions. In essence they were claiming that this was not the place for them because most disagreed with them not about their good service but about how they see Gideon from what appeared to be a very blind sided view.

Gideon was not bashed off - he basically misled the readers with claims such as never calling the St Francis 48 a Fastcat only to have a post that showed the page on his web site he had deleted. He was not able to survive in the real world and so chose to remove himself to Gideon world.

If you followed your logic about employees you would never complain about any products in fear of it hurting the employment of those making the product.

The point about the latest article is that people who read should understand
that Gideon has all the attributes that Frank so well describes him for and these include false claims, wishful thinking etc. Gideon to date has proved nothing but a very poor boat builder. He should subject his new boat to external independent testing to gain some credibility.


Paul - sailed on a Fastcat once and did not like it.

sigmasailor
18th November 2010, 08:07 PM
Fastcat Lovers,

Of course they weren't knocked of literally. But if you put yourself in their position wouldn't you give up? Whatever argument they put up, it was countered with the same old (and second hand) information over and over again like none of you even tried to understand what they were trying to say. Maybe (I can't tell firsthand since I never even heard about a Fastcat more than 6 months ago) things have changed; is that so hard to admit?

When was the last time anyone else but Andreas or Frank put foot on a Fastcat? I have only seen the newest version of the Fastcat; it sailed well and it was nicely finished. I simply do not believe anyone really appreciating boats would not like to sail it.

Eric

TYRNTLZRDKING
18th November 2010, 08:36 PM
Eric,
Andreas has his Fastcat for sale.
You sold your boat and are "looking around".
Why not buy African Innovation?
With this forum bringing down the value of such outstanding boats built by a genius.
Seems like this would be a chance of a lifetime for you.

sigmasailor
18th November 2010, 08:48 PM
Dear TYRNTLZRDKING,

I'm afraid you're over estimating my back account. I have sold my Sigma 33 OOD for 37000 euro's (like 50k USD). That is roughly a zero less than Andreas wants for his African Innovation.

I have been puzzeling about your nickname for some time now; would you mind sharing with us what is stands for?

Eric

TYRNTLZRDKING
18th November 2010, 09:02 PM
I don't know what Andreas paid, but I doubt it was that much.
He is maybe 30 years old? He bought and paid the thing off in a few years working as a cabin boy for a cruise ship and a short time as a laborer working for African Cats. Might be worth asking him how much?


tyrant lizard king

ForumAdmin
18th November 2010, 10:14 PM
Eric
Forget the old stuff about Fastcats and just look at the current situation.

A court case with a client trying to get his deposit back with Gideon not turning up. A matter of interest to anyone considering becoming a client.

Frank a current owner calling gideon a liar, treating customers as guinea pigs etc ... all current stuff from a Fastcat owner that would put anyone off.

With friends like frank Gideon does not need enemies.

Failure to show at the La Rochelle boat show and is excuse of weather does not wash.

A current refusal to pay for the tramps that have failed on Butterfly.

Gideon could easily arrange to prove how good is boat is by allowing an extended trail by an independent observer.

I really hope that the new boat is as good as he claims because we all gain if it is - it would push the bounderies and all would gain.

If Gideon just acted responsibly towards the latest client in the court case that would be a start ....... He seems hell bent of self destruction.

So just taking the current facts into account Gideon has some things to do - why does he not do them instead of just acting the victim.

sigmasailor
19th November 2010, 08:55 AM
Dear Paul,

Again the same repetition of old, put into another perspective and mostly second hand statements (in Dutch we say: 'dragging old cows from the ditch').

Since this is your site I will shut up about this subject and give you the privilege (nice boat type by the way) of the 'last word' (also translated from Dutch expression) in this matter.

I know you understand this is not personal; I just do not get why you put so much energy in repeating yourself over and over again.

Eric

bigwow
19th November 2010, 09:23 AM
I know you understand this is not personal; I just do not get why you put so much energy in repeating yourself over and over again.

Eric


Pot and black spring to mind :rolleyes:

ForumAdmin
19th November 2010, 10:20 AM
Eric
I have to agree we live in different worlds.
I have raised the current points time and time again but have never had an answer.
I know you are sincere in your views but I still find it hard to swallow that if you were buying a boat you would at least want to be aware of the nature of current problems with your supplier such as court cases, unresolved issues with owners etc.
The only response I have had to the Court case was from Andreas who basically stated it was not the business of anyone else.

There is no reason to defer to me as site owner either - that goes against every shred of the principles upon which the site is founded - free speech. I have no different rights to that than any other member.

The old cows from the ditch remarks are unfounded - i quoted current problems that you simply choose to ignore.

How you expect any customer to deal with Gideon after Franks current description of him as a lair etc defeats me. Why do you not argue with Frank over his Gideon descriptions that are based on the historic Gideon that for some unexplained reason we are supposed to ignore because of your pleasant few hours trip on a fastcat?

Answer those questions and we can maybe get somewhere.

bigwow
19th November 2010, 10:31 AM
I note that Gidean is now hiding behind his wife’s skirts, Mrs Gidean has posted personal insults trying to defend her husband on the YBW forum, post 85 of the ongoing saga “Yachting Monthly oversight perhaps?”
Interesting:D

ForumAdmin
19th November 2010, 11:16 AM
I post here Gideon's wife response on the YBW forum

he Righteous Man
Your quizmaster isn’t Gideon because, believe it or not: building special and beautiful catamarans in South-Africa is a cumbersome task and he’s in a rush to finish all the high quality level communication with well-experienced sailors (among them: journalists of other yachtmagazines) here in the Netherlands about the Green eMotion, before he’ll take off again to Durban today.
But here she is, the second best quizmaster: Gideon’s wife Elske!

“Welcome, dear people of this forum for our new show called: The Righteous Man.
For this first time we found a man, who puts men like Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela in a shade: Gludy alias of Paul Burgess. Lets give him a warm applause!!!”

Gludy, nice to have you here straight from the pigsty “Multihulls4us” on this YBW-forum.
For the ones who don’t understand why you were the chosen for this program.
Well folks, since Gludy wrote on the 2nd of November 2010 on this forum:

I only state things that are true and can be proved to be true.

and he seems to be such a narcist, we’d like him to give him the full attention, he’s so desperately craving for. In this show he can demonstrate his knowledge of sailing, Fastcats, the buyers and many things more.

Gludy, just to make you feel completely comfortable: you’re a man well in his sixties, not exactly in good physical shape, who decided in 2008 to switch from motorboats to sailingboats while you couldn’t sail, isn’t it? We don’t know yet if we should congratulate you for being such a brave man or if we should pity you. Could you inform the readers where they can find your sailing blog so that they can learn more about your current experiences with your St. Francis 50?
I’ll give our readers just to amuse them a hyperlink where Gludy received some sailing advice on the Cruisersforum, before he came to the Netherlands to test the FastCat:

see post #13 and 14.

Ok, now it’s time to ask Gludy the first question, to exhibit his righteousness.
Gludy, you wrote on post # 25, the 20th of October 2010 on this forum:

Even the only sale of a rib to the owners of A Fastcat 'Butterfly and Barnacle' resulted in a rib they could not use because they could not steer it!!! They had to dispose of this as soon as they started to use it!!!

I’d like you to have a look on the following link:

http://www.africancats.com/site/gall...atalite%20RIB/

And Gludy, can you tell the forum: who are the people you see in the pictures 6-12 and where were these pictures taken?

Because you might be too nervous to answer the question correctly, I’ll give you as an escape: Frank, owner of African Seawing! (Frank, because I didn’t ask you beforehand: I hope you don’t mind to help Gludy if necessary?)

Waiting for the right answer, I’ll spend my time on ‘more useful (or fun) issues’ but I’ll be back soon enough. See you!Words fail me for the depth of the personal attack here, Even i am amazed at what level Gideon's 'organsiation' will lower itself to.

I believe in free speech and if that means letting such personal degrading attacks see the light of dayt so they can reflect on their writer then so be it.

ForumAdmin
19th November 2010, 12:09 PM
This, for the record, is my response on the YBW forum.

Elske
Personal attacks such as yours are against forum rules but i ask the forum admin to leave the attack standing as it a stark example of the manner in which your company reacts.

Leaving out the personal attacks from a person who has never even met me, you seem to question my sailing skills. Well as a lot on this forum and my own forum know I a novice to sailing (not boating) and have never claimed anything different, so we actually seem to agree on that one.

However ia m not a novice at experiencing bad boat builders and may be that is closer to the skills required in this case.

My own experiences on my boat are well documented by me on my own forum. I am pleased to report that there is not a single outstanding issue and all the bills I paid out have been repaid. However, again - what has this to do with African Cats? Nothing.

Now to your only question about who is in the photograph - you provide the answer as Frank. I accept that the image is Frank the very same person who has currently and in public accused your husband of lying, indulging in fantasies, using customers as guinea pigs etc etc. Frank has every right to state what he thinks is truthful and to still praise Gideon despite Franks claimed attributes but most people would be concerned at buying a boat from a boat builder with such attributes.

Other prospective buyers may be concerned that the wife of the boat builder indulges in such low personal attacks.

However now your on the forum - how about explaining why Gideon did not turn up to the recent Court case in Holland where a client was suing your company?

Also tell us do you agree with Frank's descriptions of your husbands character?

Please note, for the record ,that I have never called your husband a liar. All I have ever done is state that he was not telling the truth.

It would appear that besides Butterfly who has openly reported their problem history with their boat it seems that the other two boats are either up for sale or due soon to be up for sale. So on balance out of the three boats there is one with an unhappy history and two that are on the market!!!!

African Seawing
19th November 2010, 02:14 PM
My boat is not for sail. It's your own invention Paul. Read carefully where you started to say something like, "If you where selling your boat, I could understand your statements". From there on in your mind the boat is for sail. Copy/paste the sentence where I state the boat is for sale???

I'm waiting for an answer here.

Frank

African Seawing
19th November 2010, 02:24 PM
Copy/Paste or give me the treat number where I state "Gideon is a liar" in those words.

I'm waiting for your answer.

Frank

smj
19th November 2010, 03:28 PM
Copy/Paste or give me the treat number where I state "Gideon is a liar" in those words.

I'm waiting for your answer.

Frank

In post #83 you stated Gideons lies and exaggerations.

bigwow
19th November 2010, 03:34 PM
In post #83 you stated Gideons lies and exaggerations.


Touché, hoisted with your own petard methinks :D

ForumAdmin
19th November 2010, 04:57 PM
Thank you BigWow.

Frank I have asked you if you planned to sell your boat and you never answered me.

So I will ask again so there is no misunderstanding.

Do you have any plans to sell your boat within the next year or so?

I never claimed your boat was up for sale I claimed that it was due to be up for sale. So a clear answer will settle it.

Also frank - i try to answer every question you throw at me - you simply do not answer most of mine.

You even forget that you accuse Gideon of being a liar when it is there in black and white.

Do not give up your day job to start a career in marketing:):):):)

I even offered to make a free video to help you sell the boat but it all falls on deaf ears.

African Seawing
19th November 2010, 09:46 PM
No, African Seawing is not for sale. Not for long. And I did answer.

Yes, I wrote Gideon is a liar as it seems but the word is taken out of it's context by not publishing the whole sentence. It was supposed to tell that Gideon mite have changed but if so that will not stop you.

It was wrong to join this forum as I can not express myself as I should being English not my first language.

Now and for ever until you die you will use, "Frank says ........"
Now and until forever you will state "Who needs an enemy if Frank is your friend".

Divide and conker. Two flies in one stroke. You must be happy now.

Frank

African Seawing
19th November 2010, 09:48 PM
Btw, I can make my own video. God nows what you will do if your on my boat and what we are going to read next.

So no thank you.

Frank

ForumAdmin
19th November 2010, 10:41 PM
Frank
It is appreciaterd that English is not your first language but there is little room for doubt in the full sentence you wrote:-


Gideons lies and exaggerations are hopefully in the past. He had to learn himself not to do so. It is proven he does not do that anymore since you can only dig up old stuff. I think amnesty is not in your book.


You say you hope these lies etc are in the past then go onto say that it is proven he has changed,

Can you please explain. and clarify what you mean for the record.

Frank here is a question i would like answer to:-
Have you at anytime changed your blog to remove criticism of Gideon/Fastcats?

Amnesty is in my book Frank but the current situation ref the trial for examples a clear demonstration to me that he has not changed. You never answer questions about the current situation.

Pleased to hear there are no plans to sell the boat - this means that you do not have to be so concerned about resale value and Gideon has lots of time to change his ways and establish a good reputation.

ForumAdmin
20th November 2010, 12:30 PM
Frank
The video offer you turned down was a gesture of help so that you could realise the best value for your boat and seeing as we are in the same marina again next month it was possible. It could have also shown what a good fixed fastcat is like and how well she sails.

I am pleased in a way that you turned it down as it would have been a few days work for me at the very least but i do consider that you really have an incorrect focus on this Gideon matter.

Whilst some may engender a feeling of sympathy for Gideon, all you have to do is think of his victims.

All was silent on the Gideon front until the latest court case.

The court case is about a couple trying to purchase the St Francis 48 who paid a deposit subject to survey. The survey was very bad as the boat has been sitting there for years and Gideon refused to pay to have it put right. The law on this in the UK and probably within the EU is that the dealer (not an indvidual private seller) has an obligation to list the faults before a contract is signed or failing that to fix the faults shown in a survey. Naturally some allowance is made for age etc.

Gideon then refused to fix the boat or refund the deposit and was taken to court by the couple. He failed to even turn up for the court case!!! The next step is for them to apply to the court for seizure of assets so as to get their money back. This is the current procedure that is active.

If Gideon had turned up and defended his position then fine - the outcome would have to be awaited but that is not the case here.

So is it not reasonable for any prospective buyer to be aware that the seller is currently engaged in a process of assets being seized? That is the current situation, not history. You seem to think not. I think that a buyer should be aware. So no history there Frank, no dragging up old things - a current situation and I would like you to be honest enough to comment on it for it goes to the heart of if Gideon has changed as per your comment in the above posts.

I would also like Eric to comment on it.

In many of the posts defending Gideon, I have been constantly accused of dragging up old things but when I highlight current matters there is no response. The boot is on the other foot - it is the defenders who constantly drag up the 'old things' as a defence whilst they totally ignore the current situation. So if you wish to defend please deal with the current situation.

In your world Frank you would not have had anyone go public like Butterfly did .... correct? You would have preferred to keep all the problems under wraps so that a constant stream of victims could continue to be supplied.

You blame the messenger even though that messenger tries to help you and ignore the cause of the problem which is Gideon's behaviour. A behaviour that you yourself see as wrong.

You wrongly claim that because nothing has happened for a while Gideon must have changed but that is not so - current things are happening showing the exact opposite.

I think that lots of Gideons ideas are great and I wish they would work. I wish fastcats could turn around and become a huge success. The problem is that i have no evidence that Gideon has changed so that can happen. The evidence is the exact opposite.

When it came to my problems with my boat and i was not satisfied I went public applying the same standards that I do when trying to help others. Today I have all my bills paid and no outstanding issues with the builder on the boat. It was all settled over this last summer and the builder sent staff out to Grenada to deal with the problems. Had Gideon acted the same way with Butterfly then IMHO he would have many more customers today because the saga would not have happened.

There is another builder today that is behaving very badly with customers and this forum has tried to help even if it only results in emotional support. That story is far from over and the builder seems set to take that saga all the way.

I am contacted a fair amount with such problems and would always try to help if I can. I prefer trying to settle the matter without publicity and have only gone public went left with no choice.

Why do I do this? Because I have been there as a victim and will never forget the heartache caused. The same reason that many charities are founded by those with a personal experience of the aims of the charity.

Nor do I blindly accept what i am told by a customer. I am a businessman and really can see the other side.

There is not a cat builder out there who does not make mistakes in the building of their boats but the good builders actually gain more credibility in how they address the issues.

So that is my position Frank. I hope one day you can understand it.

sigmasailor
20th November 2010, 08:06 PM
Paul and other Fastcat fans,

I don't like reapeating myself like some of you seem to do.

My answer is in post #31 of the YW topic:

..........
I don't know Gideon well enough to ask him about matters which I believe are not my business. I do know that internet is quite full of biased information. Mind you, I am not saying there isn't any truth in blogs but before I judge I would like to hear the other parties story. .........

Eric

TYRNTLZRDKING
20th November 2010, 08:30 PM
..........
I don't know Gideon well enough to ask him about matters which I believe are not my business. I do know that internet is quite full of biased information. Mind you, I am not saying there isn't any truth in blogs but before I judge I would like to hear the other parties story. .........
Eric

Someone should let poor Gideon know about all this online negativity directed towards him so he could defend himself!
I know he is a member of this pigsty. Maybe his wife should make him aware what is going on, or his lawyers could remind him to show up in court! Where is he?

ForumAdmin
20th November 2010, 09:11 PM
Eric
Your post 31

Hi Paul,

Nice to see you on this forum for a change.

Yes, I did read about B&B and their dingy. All I can say is that the dingy Chris used to make photos worked fine and steered in straight lines as well as curves; maybe the design was changed. I don't know. Pity; I now realize I should have tried it myself to give my own firsthand opinion.
As far as I know Green Emotion is the only Fastcat with the Green Motion system which I became interested in. Again: I have seen it working without any problems.
I don't know Gideon well enough to ask him about matters which I believe are not my business. I do know that internet is quite full of biased information. Mind you, I am not saying there isn't any truth in blogs but before I judge I would like to hear the other parties story. I agree the tramp doesn't look good but don't know the whole story behind that. I find it difficult (impossible) to have an opinion about that; anyway that was not the subject of the article.

Eric

I am sorry but that response does not answer the current questions.:):):)

African Seawing
20th November 2010, 09:38 PM
Frank here is a question i would like answer to:-
Have you at anytime changed your blog to remove criticism of Gideon/Fastcats?

No, any rumours on that one? Witch bring me to the question, after you forces St Francis to cope with your battery issue (your idea as I understand, the battery thing) did you erased some topics in that respect? Would like an answer on that one.

In your world Frank you would not have had anyone go public like Butterfly did .... correct?

Not correct, as I did in my own blog, I tell everything. It’s all there to read but please translate correctly (not Google). Nothing was and is erased. In fact, all you know is what you red in butterfly’s blog and mine (and maybe in Andreas). The rest is guessing.

There is not a cat builder out there who does not make mistakes in the building of their boats but the good builders actually gain more credibility in how they address the issues.

But you are determine the standards now. Paul is god all mighty who determines what’s good and bad. In a forum with no moderator he is like king with an army of armchair sailors by far not interested in Fastcats but having fun in the soap. (excuses to the real sailors) Got St Francis on his knees also for his own profit with the power of the forum. It all reminds me to the little corporal with the moustache in 1930. Eventually he went down and lost. Enjoy your power now Paul as long it will last. The downfall will come soon.

sigmasailor
20th November 2010, 09:41 PM
Paul,

Unlike you I only comment on matters that I have experienced first hand.
I have seen the dingy handle normally and I know nothing about a court case (simply not my business). So, I cannot comment on the latter but did so on the dingy.

I have a hint (first help line) for you with regard to the YW gameshow: look at the name of the dingy; recognize the sailors inside it?

Eric

TYRNTLZRDKING
20th November 2010, 09:56 PM
[I] Paul is god all mighty who determines what’s good and bad. In a forum with no moderator he is like king with an army of armchair sailors by far not interested in Fastcats but having fun in the soap. (excuses to the real sailors) Got St Francis on his knees also for his own profit with the power of the forum. It all reminds me to the little corporal with the moustache in 1930. Eventually he went down and lost. Enjoy your power now Paul as long it will last. The downfall will come soon.

I am sure our god Paul will shortly defend your personal attacks, and answer any questions. He does pretty well on his own.

You complain that this Forum has no moderator?
What would you want a moderator to do? Would you want them to delete posts which go against the Forums owners opinions? I am confused. :confused: There are plenty of members on this Forum which do not always agree with Paul and express there oposing opinions. This is not the CF! I believe that is were your little friend with the moustache rules.

bigwow
20th November 2010, 10:10 PM
I am sure our god Paul will shortly defend your personal attacks, and answer any questions. He does pretty well on his own.

You complain that this Forum has no moderator?
What would you want a moderator to do? Would you want them to delete posts which go against the Forums owners opinions? I am confused. :confused: There are plenty of members on this Forum which do not always agree with Paul and express there oposing opinions. This is not the CF! I believe that is were your little friend with the moustache rules.

Obvious init, Gideons new possee want all posts they don't agree with deleted, seems that way to me anyway.:eek:

African Seawing
20th November 2010, 10:23 PM
This is not the CF! I believe that is were your little friend with the moustache rules.

Never been on CF. Paul is setting the standards where boat builders should stick too. He’s ruling that world now. With a lot off supporters.

Obvious init, Gideons new possee want all posts they don't agree with deleted, seems that way to me anyway.

No. Please don’t delete anything. Will come in handy later. Btw. We copy everything, also the deleted treats. You never know.

TYRNTLZRDKING
20th November 2010, 10:35 PM
I think you should try the CF. You would love it!

Why do you have a problem with Paul attempting to set high standards for boat builders? When your boat was being built, did you not want things done right?
I am having a boat built and I will be very pleased if such high standards are all met. This is what I am expecting.

Is that some kind of a threat about posts being copied to "come in handy later"?
What threats against you were deleted? Since you made a copy, please share with us. I know of no threats or posts being deleted.

ForumAdmin
21st November 2010, 03:17 AM
Frank
I asked the question because I know your blog listed a fair amount of problems and with your current attitude thought you had forgotten them:)

No threads or posts have been deleted other than the one placed by the lawyers for the clients and that was done at his request.

The whole point of this forum is free speech and that means for everyone - its the exact opposite to the world of the Hitler where free speech was not allowed. It is more akin to CF forum where you are not allowed to criticise the forum in anyway.

I am not setting standards - simply offering help to victims and trying to avoid future ones. I may be wrong in doing that, you think i am. I think not.

I have no more power on this forum than any other member.

I am not personally attacking you and will not lower myself to do it. Your points to me do not make sense because whilst you state that Gideon was a liar etc in the past you also state that as nothing has happened for a while( not true) he must now have changed.


Nothing was and is erased. In fact, all you know is what you red in butterfly’s blog and mine (and maybe in Andreas). The rest is guessing.


What guessing have I done to date Frank. I can think of one - one is that you may be planning at some point in the next year or so to sell your boat and that guess was wrong. Please outline my other guesses not confusing questions with guesses.

You fail and fail again to discuss the current points I have raised time after time. Even now, no answer no matter how clear the questions.

Your points about records and deleting posts sounds like a threat. Well I am subject to personal attacks from you and Gideon's wife - such attacks reflect poorly on you both. I will not be deterred by threats.

My guess is that you will just go on refusing to answer my main points. You are obviously very upset but you Frank have managed to cause Fastcat's reputation a great deal of harm that is seems you cannot understand.

smj
21st November 2010, 03:26 AM
Funny, just now on cf Pblais made the comment that you have the freedom to think on cf but there is no freedom of speech.

ForumAdmin
21st November 2010, 03:28 AM
Never been on CF. Paul is setting the standards where boat builders should stick too. He’s ruling that world now. With a lot off supporters.


I suppose i am Frank:):):)

I expect a boat builder not to lie, not to deceive customers, not to use customers as guinea pigs, not to see the world through rose coloured glasses at the expense of customers, to honour all their obligations to all customers ..... all the things you have written that Gideon has done but that you accept, I do not accept. So I suppose that makes me unique in your eyes but i think most people would not expect that lists of faults in a boat builder.

I am more than ready to accept that Fastcats has changed and turned over a new leaf if it were not for the current situation with two clients.

I do not see any other boat builders sending in their wives with bitter personal attacks and not for the first time has that technique been used by Gideon.

It seems that to disagree with you, which is all I have done you can only counter with such attacks rather than answer questions openly about the current situation.

Frank, IMHO, nobody reading your posts would ever go near gideon to buy a boat. After what you have written and Butterfly - the record is not good and that is without me saying a word.

TYRNTLZRDKING
21st November 2010, 04:16 AM
Funny, just now on cf Pblais made the comment that you have the freedom to think on cf but there is no freedom of speech.

"Thinking what you like is your freedom but there is no free speech at CF! We are not the government and this is a private venue. All members will conduct themselves in a manner that exhibits the better nature of sailors and post ideas and comments meant to enrich the sailing experience for one and all be thy big or small or even just a question that might lead to more answers. Asking simple questions to find answers is what we do the most of here and is appropiriate.

We all seek true answers to many questions and we welcome sharing in a friendly environment. It's why sailors come here and why they come back.

If you have a second agenda we can easily with the click of a mouse see that you leave without return and with no wake left behind."

ColdFusion
21st November 2010, 05:03 PM
"Thinking what you like is your freedom but there is no free speech at CF! We are not the government and this is a private venue. All members will conduct themselves in a manner that exhibits the better nature of sailors and post ideas and comments meant to enrich the sailing experience for one and all be thy big or small or even just a question that might lead to more answers. Asking simple questions to find answers is what we do the most of here and is appropiriate.

We all seek true answers to many questions and we welcome sharing in a friendly environment. It's why sailors come here and why they come back.

If you have a second agenda we can easily with the click of a mouse see that you leave without return and with no wake left behind."

I've had several posts deleted on Cruisers Forum because I obviously broke their rules by asking the wrong questions, and asked further questions if the answers given didn't add up or were contradictory and I asked for clarification, or if I questioned a moderator about why a post or whole thread was pulled and suggested it was because they were protecting a paying advertiser and they were biased in their favour. You get the picture?

Free speech on Cruisers Forum most certainly does not exist and the moderators do not want to help highlight deficiencies in the boat industry in order to help stop their registered members becoming victims. As long as the advertising revenue continues to roll in, they don't care in the slightest. Some might call it unethical, some might call it something much worse...

African Seawing
21st November 2010, 05:35 PM
Frank, IMHO, nobody reading your posts would ever go near gideon to buy a boat. After what you have written and Butterfly - the record is not good and that is without me saying a word.

Hmmm, I mite consider then to erase my honesty on my own blog cause it’s not my intention to harm Fastcats nor Gideon who is building, or try to build, the best cat ever.

Explain IMHO, I don’t now this word.

Would you repeat your questions I did not answered. It’s your tool to put questions in a matter so you can later on use it against me or Gideon. Divide you know …… When I started to use your tool you where quickly where “Fed up” with me.

I will replay all questions about my boat and my service from Fastcat. I will not, not anymore, replay questions about the personality of Gideon because you are using this against me or Gideon.

Frank

sigmasailor
21st November 2010, 05:46 PM
Explain IMHO, I don’t now this word..

Frank, die is makkelijk: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=imho.

Eric

ForumAdmin
21st November 2010, 08:00 PM
Frank - l am really not trying to trap you.

I also accept that currently you have no intention of hurting Gideon. I think the difference between us is that you think Gideon should be left alone to just build a new boat without comment about his actions up to this point and the latest and current court case.

I can see no evidence for any change in his business practices and would ask anyone interested in pursuing a boat from him to Google and check out the history up to this day.

Gideon has tried to totally mislead me and others. it is a fact that he does exaggerate and make claims that are not true. I would be more than happy to forget the past if he has changed in his ways but i can see no evidence of it. In fact I see the same old Gideon with tactics of setting his wife lose for bitter personal attacks just as she did to Dick and Karen reference the door that fell apart in crossing the Atlantic.

That is the difference between us.

Who is right? Time will tell but I hope you are right because if you are the world will be offered a really great new breakthrough cat that could change cat design forever. So in other words I want to be wrong!! I cannot say fairer than that.:):):)

African Seawing
21st November 2010, 11:45 PM
This letter I posted on YBW but I put it here also to read.


Dear forum members,

Once, a long time ago, I had a dream of sailing the world seas. In that time I was hungry for information and so I red countless blogs of people who where on the road (sea). I was not interested in aunty Nany or uncle Sam or the even the kinds at visit, no, I was eager to find out more about the nice spots, the anchor places and most of all the mishaps on the boat. Not that I am a ramp tourist but there’s so much to learn from it that you become well aware of what can happen to a boat. After doing that for 5 years it was as if I was already long time at sea. Big thanks to the blog owners of those days to be blond about there problems.

So when we became boat owners ourselves 4 years ago I started our blog to with the promise to write the goods and the bads. Doing so I pay back the knowledge so many people have giving me before. The boat builder (Gideon Fastcats) was by far not always happy about my blog stories but never it came to a state of burned bridges.

Little did I know that 4 years later and 4 years living on our boat a man called by the name Paul would found a forum ( http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/ (http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/) ) to protect customers (called by him as victims) to use my blog to extract knowledge that would be used against us for the benefit of Butterfly (boat #2) ( http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/ (http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/) ) and some mysterious law case in Holland. Paul lifted out what he needed of our blog leaving the contexst out. It like cutting a reportage wich can be done positive wise or negative wise.

Sadly, I’m now confronted to censure my own blog because a forum holder who gets all his information out of it as well out of Butterfly’s blog. I give you a few examples.

Frank, IMHO, nobody reading your posts would ever go near gideon to buy a boat. After what you have written and Butterfly - the record is not good and that is without me saying a word.

Not only he is confronting me with my own writings but even attacks me with it.

Who needs an enemy when you have Frank as your friend.

I asked the question because I know your blog listed a fair amount of problems and with your current attitude thought you had forgotten them.

More samples are;

Fastcats need no help from me in turning customers away - they have Elske who does a fine job as well as Frank who is an honest man telling the history as he sees it. IMHO anyone reading their posts would not want to go near one of their boats.

Lifting out the bad story and not telling the outcome of it is manipulating the news. Russia was good in that. Paul also. He forget to tell the forum members that eventually all was dealt whit an I was compensated very fairly on all occasions. Whether it was parts, or even labour work. But that’s to positive to say hey?. There’s a good reason why Butterfly get not the treatment I get but I leave it up to them to explain that one. Please Karen tell the people of this forum what you told me shouting out load at the factory floor with all workers present. Tell them also what you told me Gideon is air to you and you are finally free of him. Tell also the people of this forum you don’t care anymore about the value of your boat. Please tell me if I’m lying here. So, is it a wonder you are not treated the way we are treated? After all, Gideon as strange as he my be, he is human.

At least since Andreas and me came on this forum few big lies (or should I say misunderstandings) are cleared.

- There are more than 2 sold boats.
- There is only one not happy boat owner, not two.
- There are more than one yellow dinghies
- There is only one unhappy dinghy holder. Hey, the same !!!
- There are eventually no aliases called Gideon.
- There are 3 boats who sailed many oceans with no big problems.
- There are 2 boats ready to go (one in water now)
- There are 2 boats existing and ready to finish (also sold boats)
- We had contact with all boat owners some of witch where on our boat.
- We are helping all boat owners as we also helping Gideon with feedback.

This is far more a different story from when we came on this forum or better Pauls forum. And it’s not over yet. We will continue to defend our selves and our boat. Paul is not that different from Gideon in looking at things. Gideon has pink glasses seeing only the positive things, Paul has black glasses seeing only the negative things. But if you have to choose, who would you choose? Paul's option is no option. If he wins he will bring down Fastcat and non of us will gain. Not even Butterfly. It’s a downhill road. If you choose Gideon, maybe if he can sort out things we can all benefit from it, even Butterfly but for sure the other boat builders. I like to be on the positive side of this story.

I already know the answers of Paul. He sad nothing. It was me and Butterfly. He is helping the victims of Gideon. Witch victims may I ask? He will replay with the court case in Holland as he did over and over again, Gideon not showing up but it’s clear now Gideon send his layer. He will refer to what he found in my blog and use it against me, that’s why I’m forced to remove the story now. He will say I agree with the behavoir of Gideon. Over and over the same old song.

Eventually, we will overcome. We, being the happy Fastcat holders. The non moderated almost anarchistic forum of Paul will fall in unbelief. I really hope this forum (YBW) will not stop this treat. At least I agree on that one with Paul. CF is over moderated, Pauls forum is the wild west. This forum is in between. It’s the only forum where Fastcat lovers are to be heard without to be countered like on Paul’s forum. They are more careful in what they write on this forum.

Frank, owner of a Fastcat 435 and has all the reason to speak up.

ForumAdmin
22nd November 2010, 12:42 AM
Frank
I really tried to offer some closure for you on my last post but there is simply no stopping you.

I could go on and respond in detail to very point raised but you cnnot just raise points without the personal attack. You no longer even claim responsibility for what you wrote on this thread.

You even have a go at Karen and Dick now painting them as the bad guys and Gideon as the good guy who it seems has to tolerate them .... truly amazing. Your conversion to the world of Gideon is complete.

I have never quoted you out of context. Your quotes about gideon being a liar etc (which are preserved) was you explaining how he has been up until recently but he has changed - that Frank was your point and context in which you wrote it. I have not lifted things out of your blog out of context - that is absurd.

All that has happened Frank is that posters have disagreed with you - that is all.

This forum is hardly the wild west. It has open discussion and this is the first case were vindictive personal attacks have been used in place of reasoned argument and discussion.

It is totally impossible to reason with you and I give in.

African Seawing
22nd November 2010, 12:53 AM
Oh, I forgot to tell you to visit the topic "Fastcat 605" on http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/ (http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/)

You will see how the wolfs are let loose without Paul to moderate even a bit. The boat does not even exist yet and is sink to the bottom already.

Democratie is a nice thing. Freedom of speech too. But even in democratie there are limits. Sure the limits are surpassed here.

I let you conclude ...

Frank

ForumAdmin
22nd November 2010, 01:07 AM
I would like to see someone answer Scotties post on the 605 here
---------------

Somebody tell me if my math is wrong. Since we are talking DC systems, I'm going to use KW and KVA equivalent as V*A=W, and ignore efficiency losses and Peukart's Law. The data below is taken from various threads, and I believe it represents the latest claims and published data.

3 hours of motoring time is claimed. The motors are supposed to use 10-25KW. Let's be the most generous, and use the 10000W figure, and let's assume we run at 75% power with two motors, so 15000W. So after three hours, that's 45000WH.
So let's say this is a model without a diesel generator.
Let's ignore wind and water generation for the moment, and just focus on solar - how many solar panels would it take to generate 45000WH?
One of the biggest available panels is the Kyocera 210 Watt panel. Let's again be generous and say we get the full output of the array for a full 7 hours (very much a generous figure). That's 1470WH per day per panel.
45000 / 1470 = 30.6.
So, in order to recharge 3 hours worth of usage in 24 hours, it would take 30.6 solar panels.
Now lets put up a couple of wind generators. The Air-X specs are for 100 watts in 15MPH winds. Let's again be generous and say we get 24 hours of wind averaging 15MPH. That's 2400WH per generator, 4800WH for both. That brings our 45000WH down to 42600WH left over.
Now lets throw in hydrogenerators. Things get a bit iffier here, but I found a thread about a Lagoon 420 hybrid where they saw 864W per shaft at 8knots. Let's figure on a 6knot average, which is 648WH per shaft for 24 hours with two shafts is 31104WH, again under perfect conditions. Hey this is really great, bringing our 45000WH down to 13896WH.
At 13896WH we now "only" need 9.5 of our solar panels to make up the surplus energy requirements to motor 3 hours in a 24 hour period under fairly ideal conditions being under constant motion of 6knots with a 15MPH apparant wind with a system that's perfectly efficient with no losses.
Again, I probably screwed up the math, and please feel free to correct my figures above, but assuming it's right, and all things are even, want to bet anyone would consider NOT getting a generator?

We're at 10 solar panels before we've considered anything but electricity for propulsion - we still need power for refrigeration, lights, nav gear, etc.

Sorry but the math just doesn't work out for me, and in the real world with system losses and non-ideal conditions we probably need to make up somewhere on the order of double this amount. Where are you going to mount 10 of these big panels on a 60' cat - much less 20 of them!
-------------------------
That is a sensible basis for discussion.

TYRNTLZRDKING
22nd November 2010, 01:09 AM
Oh, I forgot to tell you to visit the topic "Fastcat 605" on http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/ (http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/)

You will see how the wolfs are let loose without Paul to moderate even a bit. The boat does not even exist yet and is sink to the bottom already.

Democratie is a nice thing. Freedom of speech too. But even in democratie there are limits. Sure the limits are surpassed here.

I let you conclude ...

Frank

I believe this is a better link to the thread you desire. Anarchist Wolves!

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1335

African Seawing
22nd November 2010, 01:10 AM
Frank
I really tried to offer some closure for you on my last post but there is simply no stopping you.

I could go on and respond in detail to very point raised but you cnnot just raise points without the personal attack. You no longer even claim responsibility for what you wrote on this thread.

You even have a go at Karen and Dick now painting them as the bad guys and Gideon as the good guy who it seems has to tolerate them .... truly amazing. Your conversion to the world of Gideon is complete.

I have never quoted you out of context. Your quotes about gideon being a liar etc (which are preserved) was you explaining how he has been up until recently but he has changed - that Frank was your point and context in which you wrote it. I have not lifted things out of your blog out of context - that is absurd.

All that has happened Frank is that posters have disagreed with you - that is all.

This forum is hardly the wild west. It has open discussion and this is the first case were vindictive personal attacks have been used in place of reasoned argument and discussion.

It is totally impossible to reason with you and I give in.

Very poor answer Paul.

African Seawing
22nd November 2010, 01:18 AM
I would like to see someone answer Scotties post on the 605 here
---------------

-------------------------
That is a sensible basis for discussion.

To start with,

Regeneration is 3kW an not 800W (something). I can generate 750W at 6 kn and 1.5kW at 8kn. Not that I'm doing that often. I keep my lead batteries full all the time (in case). Just count 1 to 6 for regeneration.

When I bouth our hybrib it was just a bit to soon. Now with the Hydrid metal batteries the world of hybrids is open. See the auto bussiness starting to bloom now.

So the calculations are not right. I agree on one thing. You should still have a generator as like we we had to motor 60h in the doldrums. Unless you stay in the Caribs. There you will not need a generator. Always wind enough.

Frank

African Seawing
22nd November 2010, 01:42 AM
It is totally impossible to reason with you and I give in.

Oh, now that you got my attention. That soon Paul. I'm just beginning.

Nice hey to found your counterpart. Sure you will not give up yet.

Frank

Karen
22nd November 2010, 12:02 PM
There’s a good reason why Butterfly get not the treatment I get but I leave it up to them to explain that one. Please Karen tell the people of this forum what you told me shouting out load at the factory floor with all workers present. Tell them also what you told me Gideon is air to you and you are finally free of him. Tell also the people of this forum you don’t care anymore about the value of your boat. Please tell me if I’m lying here. So, is it a wonder you are not treated the way we are treated? After all, Gideon as strange as he my be, he is human.


Frank -

Dick sent you an email last night. I ask that you read it and reflect on it a little. We have never publicly insulted or attacked you as you have us these past few days. In fact we have to date maintained a discreet silence on information that you have shared with us, even though we believe it would cast a very different light on some of the posts you have made.

We await your private response before commenting further.

Karen

dickj
22nd November 2010, 01:22 PM
I also noticed there was a discussion about the Africa Cat dinghies ... My yellow dinghy rocked and was the envy of most of the boats I sailed with on the Pacific crossing, because it was so light. Certainly most of the cats I met wanted one, but I didn't want to sell. I certainly had no problems maneuvering her like they've had on Butterfly. It could of course just mean that I am a superior helmsman ;)

- Andreas

Hi Andreas,

I do not know which version of the AFC dingy you have, I do know that Frank on ASW has a different design to the one we had.

I summarised my experiences with our dinghy on Cruisers Forum back in June 2009.

Having re-read that CF post I still think it a reasonable (if somewhat understated) summary. What I forgot to mention at the time was that in contrast to our current AB lightweight aluminium dinghy, which needs air about twice a year, the FastCat dinghy needed pumping up every 2-3 weeks. And no, it did not appear to have a leak.

Anyway, here's my summary:


Hi all

When I was originally discussing the spec for the rib / outboard that was to be supplied with Butterfly I specifically wanted one that would plane with 2 people on board.

Gideon rightly convinced me that the best approach was to have a light weight rib and engine with enough power to make the rib plane. I was assured that the 6 hp, 4 stroke Tohatsu combined with an AfricanCats rib would do the job.

When we first tested the rib in flat water in Durban harbour our main focus was still on Butterfly and getting her completed after many months of delays and countless problems. In reality we did not spend enough time testing the rib / outboard.

The rib design is wide, the hull is very flat - a slight V at the bows with slight twin hulls at the stern. The tubes are attached very high on the deck.

Having had a lot of experience with this rib / engine (and quite a lot with other designs) I would summarise the advantages / disadvantages as follows –

Getting into the boat

In flat water the wide hulls ensure the boat will not turn over – it is easy to get into. In choppy water because the tubes are so high the rib rolls and ‘wobbles’ a lot, getting in is unusually difficult.

Using the rib

In flat water with one person on board it does12 .5 knots (it is planeing). With 2 people on board it does 6.4 knts (it just does not make it up onto a plane ). The ride is fine.

When it is choppy water and the wind is blowing (which is normally the case where we are sailing), with one person on board the flattish bottom makes the ride ‘hard’ and when not planeing it is difficult to control direction. With 2 people in it does not plane but direction stability is improved. It tends to be a wet design.

When landing the rib on a beach the light weight rib / engine is a plus.

I did not appreciate until our outboard failed how important being able to row a rib is. The positioning of the oarlocks combined with the short oars / high sides of the boat make rowing it ineffective. Moreover we can’t row it at all at present, since one oarlock detached on first use and the inflatable seat deflates.

In summary

In the real world, when living aboard a boat, you depend on your rib in all sorts of conditions. This design / engine is not a good compromise. OK for flat water - not if it is choppy. It does not row well as delivered. It does not plane with 2 people as promised.

Regards

Dick
__________________
of Butterfly and Barnacle (http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/)- sailing blog
I hope you will see that I tried hard to provide a fair and reasonable appraisal.

Regards

Dick

therapy
22nd November 2010, 06:00 PM
.............

Yoga O
22nd November 2010, 06:06 PM
.............

?????????????

therapy
22nd November 2010, 06:19 PM
?????????????

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365&page=4

#66-->

I have no idea why the email system drops me out.

If I do like the Lizard says it starts back up agian.


????????

TYRNTLZRDKING
22nd November 2010, 10:13 PM
http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365&page=4

#66-->

I have no idea why the email system drops me out.

If I do like the Lizard says it starts back up again.


????????

I only said that as a test trying to diagnose the problem. :)

Once my emails were started back up, I have not had any new problems with notifications.
If I lost a notification to a thread I am interested in, I try to come up with something wise to say, and make a post, or do as Paul suggested and subscribe to thread above.

.............. will not do!:mad: This is not a pigsty!
Try to post ideas and comments meant to enrich the sailing experience for one and all be thy big or small or even just a question that might lead to more answers. Asking simple questions to find answers is what we do the most of here and is appropriate. :)

I will no longer tolerate total anarchy!
Click of my mouse, no return, no wake :)

therapy
23rd November 2010, 02:34 AM
I only said that as a test trying to diagnose the problem. :)

Once my emails were started back up, I have not had any new problems with notifications.
If I lost a notification to a thread I am interested in, I try to come up with something wise to say, and make a post, or do as Paul suggested and subscribe to thread above.


)

Well, it worked last time and again this time.

All I did was go the the threads that I am subscribed to (with the little check in the blue square) post the dots and now I am getting emails again so I can easily keep up.

Before it was open them all up and try to remember the last date I had read and start from there.

Note: I also got email from one I did not post on as it was far in the past. But I got one. The one about your problem with UPS and Tina.

scotte
24th November 2010, 02:45 PM
Regeneration is 3kW an not 800W (something). I can generate 750W at 6 kn and 1.5kW at 8kn.

I used 648WH per shaft at 6kts - that's pretty darn close to 750 watts, considering the data I had to go off of (not much!). If you work through it all again, I think you will find 100 watts does not materially affect the outcome.



So the calculations are not right. I agree on one thing. You should still have a generator as like we we had to motor 60h in the doldrums. Unless you stay in the Caribs. There you will not need a generator. Always wind enough.

I guess the calculations are indeed correct, but one assumption was incorrect by 100 watts. I do believe your assertion is not correct that in the Caribbean just wind generation is enough for 3 hours per day of propulsion. Again, you can work through my calculations to see why I came to that conclusion, and as above, I am more then willing to accept hard data over my assumed values - but it just doesn't add up.



When I bouth our hybrib it was just a bit to soon. Now with the Hydrid metal batteries the world of hybrids is open. See the auto bussiness starting to bloom now.

Yes, I recall seeing on your blog that you were considering removing the electric propulsion system and replacing with standard diesel engines. I still think we are a long, long way from electrical propulsion being a viable option for long-term cruising. Even in the auto industry, it's a rather immature technology.

scotte
24th November 2010, 03:00 PM
Sadly, I’m now confronted to censure my own blog because a forum holder who gets all his information out of it as well out of Butterfly’s blog.

I have to say I find it very interesting, but also disheartening, that you would rather censure yourself in order to protect African Cats versus say what you really feel and would like to say.

When you publish a blog (or post on a public forum, etc), you just have to accept that people may use your own words, or even challenge them. There is nothing wrong with this - if you don't want it to be public, then simply don't make it public to begin with. Unfortunately for you (and African Cats), the cat is already out of the bag on this, and the serious quality and build deficiencies and problems you've had with African Seawing are public. It's good that you have gotten better warranty support on your boat, though if you have to be under Gideon's thumb to do so, I'm not sure it's really worth it!

(Sorry for the late replies on this thread - first time I've had internet for a couple of weeks).

African Seawing
24th November 2010, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by African Seawing http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?p=28664#post28664)
Regeneration is 3kW an not 800W (something). I can generate 750W at 6 kn and 1.5kW at 8kn.

I used 648WH per shaft at 6kts - that's pretty darn close to 750 watts, considering the data I had to go off of (not much!). If you work through it all again, I think you will find 100 watts does not materially affect the outcome.

Think you mis understood me. I can make 750W at 6kn and 1.5Kw at 8 or more. We've got in total 9Kw motors. So that's about 1 to 6 for regenaration.

Green E-motion has 18Kw motors in total and can therefore make 3Kw at the best. That's far different from your calculations. You used my numbers for E-motion.

Anyway, not that important to have a fight for.

I do believe that the new generations of batteries will make soon the differce. Even in the car industry. Time will tell and I'm looking forward for that.

Frank

African Seawing
24th November 2010, 07:13 PM
Edit on post #83

Gideons seems to be not telling the full trouth and exaggerations are hopefully in the past.

Because Paul has used over and over my earlier statement Gideon being a "l***r" out of the context of the full sentence I replaced that wrong word with the expression Paul rather uses. It's for sure better English.

I was a bit fed up with Paul hiding himself behind that word written by a costumer, trying to divide and rule between me and Gideon. See for your selves the numerous times he used that wrong word of mine.

Since this is a forum of free speech, it mite be also a forum where one can correct a wrong word specially when English is not my first language.

Lets hope Paul is not going to use the words of "clients" or "victims" in so called statements to "help the clients" as he pretend to do with this forum.

He was not really helping me with that wrong word, was he?

Frank

Yoga O
24th November 2010, 08:04 PM
Frank,

While recognizing that English is not your first language, surely you might understand that "not telling the full truth and exaggerations" can actually be the same as telling a lie, since they are not exactly the truth.

Now depending on how you want to view the exaggerations and who is telling them, you might have a different view of an exaggeration than the next guy. Are you familiar with the saying, "it depends on whose ox is being gored/"

For example, if a boat builder says their boats are made from superior material that makes the boat lighter than the exact same design from another builder, and that boat ends up being the same or higher weight as the original design when produced, you might feel you were lied to. Note, this is just an example and has no basis in fact that I know of.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with you changing what your blog says in the pursuit of greater accuracy. The written word can often be a poor way to express one's feelings. It can be extremely frustrating to have your own words used against you especially when the meaning you tried to convey is twisted.

Again though I would ask that you try and stop defending Gideon by attacking the messengers. There is current "stuff" that he is not doing. From what I have seen he still exaggerates and tries to avoid answering questions directly. His latest tactic seems to be provide a huge amount of confusing data rather than give a simple direct answer. As a result, I have given up trying to understand if he is telling the truth/exaggerating/being over-enthusiastic or just out and out lying.

Fair Winds,
Mike

TYRNTLZRDKING
24th November 2010, 08:06 PM
Frank,

Nine days after making your original post, you decide to go back, edit it and say Paul was taking it out of context?
Here is the full sentence you originally posted....


Gideons lies and exaggerations are hopefully in the past. He had to learn himself not to do so. It is proven he does not do that anymore since you can only dig up old stuff. I think amnesty is not in your book.

TYRNTLZRDKING
24th November 2010, 08:18 PM
I have to say I find it very interesting, but also disheartening, that you would rather censure yourself in order to protect African Cats versus say what you really feel and would like to say.

When you publish a blog (or post on a public forum, etc), you just have to accept that people may use your own words, or even challenge them. There is nothing wrong with this - if you don't want it to be public, then simply don't make it public to begin with. Unfortunately for you (and African Cats), the cat is already out of the bag on this, and the serious quality and build deficiencies and problems you've had with African Seawing are public. It's good that you have gotten better warranty support on your boat, though if you have to be under Gideon's thumb to do so, I'm not sure it's really worth it!

I agree. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Others/others-249.GIF

scotte
25th November 2010, 12:22 AM
Think you mis understood me. I can make 750W at 6kn and 1.5Kw at 8 or more. We've got in total 9Kw motors. So that's about 1 to 6 for regenaration.

Nope, I understand... But the figures were based on a 6 knot average, so everything stands and is fully understood.



Green E-motion has 18Kw motors in total and can therefore make 3Kw at the best. That's far different from your calculations. You used my numbers for E-motion.

Actually, I used figures from a Lagoon hybrid, as at the time there was NO other available data.



Anyway, not that important to have a fight for.

I am not searching, in any way for a fight or argument with anyone - just discussion regarding facts...



I do believe that the new generations of batteries will make soon the differce. Even in the car industry. Time will tell and I'm looking forward for that.

Well this really goes back to my whole assertion at some level - that the battery bank is irrelevant without means to charge it. A bigger bank means more charging is required, and without a generator (i.e. diesel-electric hybrid as opposed to a full, fossil-free system as claimed by African Cats) the technology just isn't there yet today - assuming the battery bank is required for propulsion (not just regular house power requirements). So again, if you go back to that original post, it was not about a diesel-electric hybrid, or about using solar+wind+hydro for house banks - it was related directly to African Cats claims about having a fossil-free electric propulsion system, and at this point it still sounds like it's just another Gideon fantasy...

Thank you for the discussion!

Caspar_s
26th November 2010, 04:05 AM
It does need some real world experience with it though - how often do cruisers motor every day?
Generally when they do motor it will be for a couple of days while making passage. Larger/lighter batteries would mean supply for those passages - that can then be replenished while they are at the destination.

scotte
26th November 2010, 05:13 AM
how often do cruisers motor every day?

A heck of a lot more than we ever think we will! :) or :( or maybe :rolleyes: or even :eek:

Caspar_s
26th November 2010, 02:45 PM
:) I guess that is true too.:D