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Nordic
31st December 2008, 04:31 PM
Sadly, it seems that the poor folks on Butterfly have run into a new batch of problems, and despite hanging around for 8 months, still have not got a boat where everything works!
Shoddy workmanship, poor design of certain details like doors and bilge pump outs seem to be the order of yet another day...

Gideon,

when do you expect to deliver a boat that works to these people?

Alan

IreAneY
31st December 2008, 05:41 PM
CHRIST:eek: Just read the latest blog of B&B, I would be demanding my money back by now and giving severe grief due to such poor workmanship and some silly and totally unnecessary mistakes.:o
Mind you if Gideon is wanting to save more weight (this is one of the first areas I would look at), then may I suggest he makes his internal doors out of foam and then laminate them instead of using heavy wood, surely they would not warp then :D

KGP
31st December 2008, 08:23 PM
Yikes! Too much time spent dreaming up better mouse-traps and not enough attention toward building what's already sold.

majika
31st December 2008, 08:31 PM
i can only asume that they dont double clip all there hoses
or check any systems and inspect all joints
they are lucky to have such a patient customer but once your in so deep there is no going back.
its a shame as gidion talks sutch a good product
idears are great but if you cant carry it through its still an idear:(

therapy
31st December 2008, 08:45 PM
Ian,

I am with you, but I am an American in the land of instant gratification (we invented it no?) and would be "slotted" as such if I would be in that position.

I don't think I will ever have a boat built but if I do I will have a lawyer draw up a contract that would let me out with a full refund if things like this occur.

It is just fantastic and too hard to believe.

I cannot believe their patience. I would have filed a suit by now.

I feel so sorry for them as they cling to the dream. I would have had to start another by now.

OMG.

I just don't know how to express what I feel................

ForumAdmin
31st December 2008, 09:17 PM
I am not going to comment on other than my understanding of what its like to have such problems.

I had a new boat built - I waited a year and it fell to bits - the keel fell off - the engines detached themselves - it was extreme. After about a 18 months of clinging to the dream I let go and embarked on a campaign to get a full refund. It involved a lot of publicity and a TV show but in the end I got it.

However, the result was that it will now be 2.5 years without a boat by the time my next one is built. Customers that situation have to count the time lost living their dream and its hard to reject the boat and by so doing lose all that time.

My boat was 6 months after hand over at the builder yard then another 12 months before I finally gave in.My experience was that if a boat causes such problems before she is in use, you can expect many more problems after you start to use her. That boat was a large power boat used for coastal cruising - not ocean voyages.

My heart goes out to the owners in this case but I do understand why they have tried so hard to cling to the dream and i hope they can start to fulfill that dream very soon.

therapy
31st December 2008, 09:24 PM
Paul,

What sort of contract do you have now?

I had a house built once and "Never again without a "real" contract with TEETH! comes into my mind.

ForumAdmin
31st December 2008, 10:26 PM
Basically about 40 per cent balance is held back until after sea trails acceptance and survey.

However, I think the biggest protection is the people that you are dealing with - I am very comfortable with St Francis.

With my refund which topped $2m, I was told that there was no chance but I used the Internet and media in such a way that i estimated a $20m loss of business before the company gave in.

After that I went into another deal that also turned sour and I ended up using the law and sending in bailiffs on that one.

So I am now very wary of the boating industry. I have helped some others fight their fights and maybe I am ore sensitive about the whole matter than most.

In the end it was that history combined with the censorship of the cruising forum that led to me starting this forum and my very clear objective of minimal censorship in an open forum.

My attitude throughout that 18 months is mirrored in the attitude of these owners in Durban - I was very optimistic always thinking the solution was near at hand but it was always just peeling back another onion skin to another set of problems.

IreAneY
1st January 2009, 11:49 AM
Just a few more points as I am agreeing with everything written by everyone else.

1) If this company is unable to get the little things, like the jubilee clips right and have cut corners here, where else have they got MAJOR things wrong which cannot be seen by the naked eye by cutting corners.:eek:

2) According to Gideon he cannot take any more orders as his order book is full until 2011 - does this mean he as 1 other order for a boat I.E. 12 months to build it and then a minimum of another 8 months to re-build it ::)

3) I know the boat industry is far more personalised and in a way all boats are in some way semi-customed, but why does it appear that they all have some faults (not as bad as this) when the car industry, pumps out millions of cars a year and the % of badly built cars with faults is in fact very small, AND the world has been making boats far longer than it has cars :)

KGP
1st January 2009, 08:33 PM
From reading the latest comments (http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/y%e2%80%99know-i-never-thought/#comments) of the B&B blog, it's sounding like they are running out of patients. I wonder how far Gideon is prepared to go in order to make things right? If these owners don't get taken care of, this could be disastrous for African Cats. Gideon might have all sorts of wonderful ideas, but if he is underestimating the power of the internet in getting the word out about his company's shoddy workmanship, he would be making a critical mistake. He seems to be the master of using the internet for spreading his kool-aid around, and somehow I think he is just oblivious to the potential harm that can (predict will) come from the B&B situation.

I have to say that in the early days on the CF forum I just didn't understand why people like Alan and Paul would jump on Gideon's statements and rip him apart. Obviously it became clear to me at some point that Gideon was full of BS. But I still wanted to believe. It's odd. He does such a good job of spreading news about how great his new products are going to be that you just want to believe what he is telling you.

Bottom line: These folks are owed some compensation. Gideon better start putting some brain-power into figuring out how to save this situation from escalating to something that will ruin his company. I find it hard to believe that it hasn't already cost him some contracts...

Nordic
1st January 2009, 09:10 PM
Of the 4 cats built by Gideons company that were sold before they were built (i.e. not demo boats) BOTH have had the same kind of experience, the first one sold to a Belgian guy was also heavily delayed with all sorts of quality issues, it just didn't get much publicity as his blog was mostly not in English at that time (it is now).

There seems to be some common features to the delivery of a Fastcat.

Delivery is very late.
There seems to be no structured and defined testing of the boat systems.
Poor or shoddy workmanship.
Lack of knowledge on systems design and implementation.

This seems to be due to lack of or poor management of the boatyard, with no well defined areas of responsibilty.
Inexperienced people at all levels in the company.
No built in quality management system.
No learning from prior mistakes.
This lack of coordination and management leads to a "fire fighting" approach, where separate teams are despatched to fight each little fire. No one has or is acting on the total overview of the situation.


I'm already feeling sorry for the poor souls next in line who have ordered a so called green motion boat, with electric drives and a much more complex electrical system! This is a disaster waiting to happen IMO. If we consider the problems Fastcats have in just delivering a standard boat, where simple things like hose runs and tanks are leaking, imagine what the next boat will be like.

If I was them I would cancel now, regardless how smooth talking or charming the owner of the company is.

In my experience, some of the very best sales people I have come across have all had psychopathic tendencies to some extent, to them it's all a game where they need to feel that they are the winners. Unless they work in an organisation that can deliver what they have promised, the customer loses every time....

As stated above, Gideon has done a great sales job on CF, and had a fan club going..people where just lapping up all the so called innovative ideas and fantastic performance statements. Once you start analysing all the quotes the inconsistencies become clearer and clearer.

Gideon still quotes a Fastcat 435/455 at around 6 tons yet the boats weigh at least 1-2 tons more empty.
His speed quotes for an Atlantic crossing are up to 30% higher than they in fact where, as proven by the log he originally posted, deleted from his site and then claimed that he didn't know how it disappeared from his site????? (Very convincing and trustworthy statement;))

My only conclusion is: Stay away from a boat built by African Fastcats.

Save yourself many a sleepless night.

Alan

ForumAdmin
3rd January 2009, 10:38 AM
Coming back to the owner options in this matter.

When I was faced with such a situation the legal route meant a delay of years with high costs on the way.In fact a legal case started by someone else with the boat builder at the same time has only just reached partial conclusion some 4 years later!

So taking the legal route in any such situation may mean choosing to lose years of living the dream and replacing it with years of hassle and extra expense. That is what held me back from the legal route and made me choose the publicity route. The publicity was such that the builder had to choose to stay in business and refund me or lose the business - that is how bad it got before they gave in.

The builder succeeded in having a lot of posts removed from a forum using legal threats but within an hour, I had my own forum live with all the documents on it and links from the main forum to those documents. In the end the forum did allow more and more publicity as it realised that i followed 2 golden rules - only publish the truth and only publish truth that you can prove to be true.

I am not commenting on the rights or wrongs of his case - I am just pointing out that the decision by the owners to take the legal route is a hard one - they may consider themselves trapped in a situation that has helped many a boat builder escape their responsibilities.

KGP
3rd January 2009, 04:43 PM
There's always two sides of every story. Love to hear the builders version. Seems he has time to post solutions to other things. In fact, I'd like to hear whether or not he would be willing to offer the B&B owners a complete refund if they got fed-up enough and asked for it.

IreAneY
3rd January 2009, 05:33 PM
There's always two sides of every story. Love to hear the builders version. Seems he has time to post solutions to other things. In fact, I'd like to hear whether or not he would be willing to offer the B&B owners a complete refund if they got fed-up enough and asked for it.

Yes, and all he is doing again is Marketing his own boats and blowing his own trumpet in the normal forum area :mad: and NOT in the vendors section as he did recently when he brought up the design of his FastCat 555 (SLOW RE-BUILD CAT) which is against CF rules but the police there :p seem to like him and don't uphold their rules and laws with him just other people who tell the truth.:mad:

He is too scared here to reply (we know he reads all the posts here) because he does not have the Moderators (school monitors) in CF to protect him. ;)

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 05:14 PM
He is very active on CF, funny how similar some threads on CF are like ours, no plaigarism of course :rolleyes: to which I have responded (not posted for a long time over there as the quality of threads is well below the standard compared to over here) and changing his stories to suit himself but he will not respond here as he probably realises it is a lost cause as we can see through all the BS, no loss as far as I am concerned.:)

KGP
4th January 2009, 08:03 PM
Butterfly is setting the record straight. Good thing Gideon has a two year back-log of orders!

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 08:27 PM
Butterfly is setting the record straight. Good thing Gideon has a two year back-log of orders!

The owner of B&B, Dick has replied to Gideons lies and bull shit and it shows him up makes him look stupid, when will this man learn that lying is not the way to sell boats.

Click on the link above and in KGP'spost and ENJOY:)

His 2 year backlog of orders are from a long way back when the Anglo Saxons made their first coracles I think.::) and they still leak:D

KGP
4th January 2009, 08:45 PM
A few choice quotes from Gideon:

"The Butterfly is the best boat I have ever build and the next will even be better." Probably can't get any worse!

"I am only doing this for fun..." And for the agony of a few unfortunate souls who sucome to the kool-aid. And it's evident that it's not being done for reasons of business success.

"p.s. I think if I asked the owners of the Butterfly what boat they would purchase now if they could choose again they would probably go for the same cat." Open mouth, insert foot.

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 08:52 PM
A few choice qutes from Gideon:

"The Butterfly is the best boat I have ever build and the next will even be better." Probably can't get any worse!

"I am only doing this for fun..." And for the agony of a few unfortunate souls who sucome to the kool-aid. And it's evident that it's not being done for reasons of business success.

"p.s. I think if I asked the owners of the Butterfly what boat they would purchase now if they could choose again they would probably go for the same cat." Open mouth, insert foot.

::)::)::)::)::)

Excellent, could not have put it better myself. :cool:

KGP what nationallity are you?

KGP
4th January 2009, 08:56 PM
USA

ForumAdmin
4th January 2009, 08:57 PM
I am truly amazed and angry that the subject has been closed down yet again by the censorship on CF!!!
Just take a look now the censor has stepped in yet again!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 09:07 PM
KGP, thanks, there must be some English in you as shown in your sense of humour. :)

KGP
4th January 2009, 09:09 PM
I am truly amazed and angry that the subject has been closed down yet again by the censorship on CF!!!
Just take a look now the censor has stepped in yet again!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Well let's just invite that discussion elsewhere! :D

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 09:10 PM
I am truly amazed and angry that the subject has been closed down yet again by the censorship on CF!!!
Just take a look now the censor has stepped in yet again!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Communists :mad:

What did you expect, I thought it was going to get closed down much sooner and that we got away with what we did was truly amazing.

He still will not reply here because he know's that we can see through his BS and lies as now he has been fully exposed by Dick of B&B, poor bugger.:(

KGP good luck with the link on CF but I expect it will get nobbled pretty soon as it is against their rules to have a link to a competetive site ;)

ForumAdmin
4th January 2009, 09:17 PM
Gideon
I am aware that you have read this thread.

I am requesting that you answer to put your side of the story.

ForumAdmin
4th January 2009, 09:35 PM
For the record, CF have not just deleted the link they have deleted all the subsequent posts after the censor stepped in.:)

If the there is thread drift - then transfer the posts to another thread ..... why not solve it that way!:)

I am simply angry for the lack of respect shown to Dick and Karen

KGP
4th January 2009, 09:49 PM
PM I got from the CF forum censor:


Hello, KGP.

I'm sorry to say I had to delete your post in the "ideal multihull" thread. Continuing the off-topic posts and linking to another sailing forum is not appropriate.

Best regards,

Hud

KGP
4th January 2009, 09:52 PM
If the there is thread drift - then transfer the posts to another thread ..... why not solve it that way!:)



Excactly! It is SOOO easy to merge and manage posts for that specific reason. It just further shows that censorship is alive and well.

IreAneY
4th January 2009, 09:53 PM
PM I got from the CF forum censor:


Hello, KGP.

I'm sorry to say I had to delete your post in the "ideal multihull" thread. Continuing the off-topic posts and linking to another sailing forum is not appropriate.

Best regards,

Hud

I knew it would happen.:) as I said in #24

KGP
6th January 2009, 07:55 AM
Gideon
I am aware that you have read this thread.

I am requesting that you answer to put your side of the story.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oWt4bKHPl14

Woodbrook
6th January 2009, 08:57 PM
At this time I think it's appropriate to once again thank Paul for all his hard work in providing us all with a platform for such discussion. We are all aware of the circumstances behind the origins for this site; hats off to you for actually doing something about it!

Being a rookie I, like many people on the other forum, was impressed by the claims of FastCat. Had it not been for the wealth of experience of you seasoned salties I and many others could have ended up in the terrible situation of B&B. So a huge thank you to each and every one of you for contributing your thoughts and experiences. Keep up the good work!

Let's hope others will be encouraged to join this forum community for continued (uncensored :)) discussion.

neelie
7th January 2009, 12:20 PM
It has never ceased to amaze me that Gideon is given such a soft ride at the Cruising Forum. He blatantly advertises the "miracle" of his product and not a squeek from the moderators yet woe betide any other vendor who even mentions his own product in a remotely positive way.

There can only be one answer - Gideon has a substantial financial interest in the Cruising Forum and possibly owns it. He uses it as a marketing tool for his product, cleverly slipping in false advertising under the guise of factual and genuine postings. Its a magnificent scam!..

You have to admire the cleverness of it. One hopes that the hapless owners of the B&B blog were not persuaded by the musings of Gideon on the Cruising Forum. If that were the case, the Cruising Forum and the moderators may well be called to task.

IreAneY
7th January 2009, 09:41 PM
Nodic started a thread on CF to get a reaction from Gideon and an honest reply from him,and apart from some soft headed Gideon lovers trying to say 'Stop it, leave the poor man:rolleyes: alone' it has again asked why Gideon can get away with murder, and what has happened - the MODS have threatened to close it down, yet again - no freedom of speech over there.

Is Gideon a good friend of the owner of CF or does he pay a lot to promote his 'HOBBY':rolleyes: on CF :confused::confused::confused:

44C
7th January 2009, 09:46 PM
Given there is supposedly a huge waiting list, it should be no problem to offer the owners of Butterfly a full refund.

IreAneY
7th January 2009, 09:51 PM
CF have closed the thread - how surprising::mad:, to me they are endorsing unethical and misleading, business and trade practises:mad:
Why are they protecting this guy :confused::confused::confused:

KGP
7th January 2009, 10:09 PM
Posted by David M on the thread on CF:
"Most of us have seen this type of thread before. It usually turns into a thread that adds nothing to the knowledge base of this forum and is actually quite counterproductive to the goals of the forum. This type of thread is not why most people come to CF, to read this kind of soap opera stuff involving personalities."


I was just going to reply to that statement but the thread was just closed. Adds nothing to the knowledgebase? Is he kidding? Not allowing the discussions' is PREVENTING the building of the public knowledgebase! That forum would rather allow certain manufactures to freely advertise un-proven claims, but care not about the community of cruisers who might fall prey to what might be an unscrupulous builder. I absolutely find it deplorable that for so long they have let that builder get away with breaking their own rules, all the while he builds a customer back-log by doing so, yet can't allow honest debate about the short-comings that have been publically posted by the person who contracted to have the boat built.

Disgusting.

By the way, I learned long ago that profit is a good thing, and to beware of anyone running a business as a hobby.

ForumAdmin
7th January 2009, 10:27 PM
Gideon
When I opened this forum, I tried my best to provide everyone including you with a open and fair forum.

I have allowed you and will continue to allow you to promote your products and ideas on this forum. That will always be the case. I will always also allow those who wish to praise or criticise you on the forum the same privileges.

You have made good use of this free advertising in the Links Library and the new products forum and I hope you agree that my treatment of you on the forum has been fair.

I do read the CF forum and find that once again they have closed a thread - even quoting the fact that it sort of unfair because you have not responded!!! Yet it was totally within your power to respond! You not responding is your choice and cannot be laid at the feet of those criticising you.

I am personally staying out of the actual discussion of the problems with the boat but I am involved in making sure that all are offered a free and fair platform to air the problems. That airing is in the interests of all 'multihullers' everywhere - providing the truth is told.

If the truth is not told then here is a forum where that can be openly challenged. This forum is not biased against you.

The only vested interest this forum has to protect is one of free speech and the firm believe that honest, open speech can only improve matters. That will always be the principle of the forum. That even extends to threads criticising forum administration which are allowed on here without censorship.

Seeing as CF has closed the thread and refused to allow free discussion of the issue, I am once again asking you to respond and once again promising you fair hearing if you do. This is the only place left where you can freely respond to the multihull community without censorship.

IMHO, and I have experience in these matters, this issue will not go away, in fact it will escalate and your business will suffer more and more over time.

It is obvious you have many very good ideas and it would be a shame to see all that wasted by your failure to post and deal with the issues.

It is within your power to respond and then hopefully put this matter to bed once and for all. Please use that power.

IreAneY
22nd February 2009, 03:54 PM
Oil in both engine rooms, auto pilot problems which should not have happened, you read you decide :confused:

http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/

solarbri
22nd February 2009, 07:01 PM
I've read the blog and am deciding that you really have a bone to pick with Gideon.
Why not mention how much joy they are getting from the bread machine that Gideon installed?
A bit biased are we??

majika
22nd February 2009, 07:10 PM
I've read the blog and am deciding that you really have a bone to pick with Gideon.
Why not mention how much joy they are getting from the bread machine that Gideon installed?
A bit biased are we??

i think if you reread the blog Gideon supplyed the bread maker and the owners have instaled it:D

scotte
22nd February 2009, 07:20 PM
Who cares about the autopilot and saildrives as long as the bread maker works? ;)

IreAneY
22nd February 2009, 07:41 PM
I've read the blog and am deciding that you really have a bone to pick with Gideon.
Why not mention how much joy they are getting from the bread machine that Gideon installed?
A bit biased are we??

I think what I am trying to say is that after all the problems that Gideon has encountered during the build of B&B which has given him nothing but bad publicity, and in respect of the Auto Pilot fiasco, would you or me in his position not have made 101% sure that all these niggles were properly fixed so as not to reappear within a few weeks of confirming all was OK.

I understand that Gideon did not do the work himself but he is employing someone to carry out the function of Production/After sales Manager who looks like he is letting him down, I think I would have replaced this guy a long time ago, depending on what the story behind the scenes really are, we will never know.:confused:

Admittedly the oil in the engine rooms, we do not know why or for what reason, and I hope it is just due to the bashing they encountered over the last few days, but should this have occured? and in both engines??, I am sure in the end we will hear the reason and all will be made clear.

I am delighted to hear that Gideons bread maker is working so well, so some good has come out of it.:)

If it looks like I am Gideon bashing, I am not, it is more a sympathy feeling for Dick and Karen who seem to be very nice and patient people, who I think we are all hoping can enjoy their new baby and put behind them all the hassles they have had over the last 8/10 months.:)

IreAneY
22nd February 2009, 07:44 PM
Who cares about the autopilot and saildrives as long as the bread maker works? ;)

You are right, I love fresh bread, maybe I should just chill out and realise that so long as the important things work all will be OK, at least you can use the loaves to soak up the oil. :D

BigCat
23rd February 2009, 01:58 AM
It's as if Bernie Madoff decided to build boats- you don't even have to be a very good liar when dealing with people who want something that is too good to be true. Ask Bernie Madoff, who is still snug at home sipping his aged cognac in front of his fireplace. In his penthouse, it is too far from the street to hear the howls and imprecations of his recently disillusioned customers. Before the confession, those who said the emperor had no clothes were shouted down or ignored. ::)

"As stated above, Gideon has done a great sales job on CF, and had a fan club going..people where just lapping up all the so called innovative ideas and fantastic performance statements. Once you start analysing all the quotes the inconsistencies become clearer and clearer.

Gideon still quotes a Fastcat 435/455 at around 6 tons yet the boats weigh at least 1-2 tons more empty.
His speed quotes for an Atlantic crossing are up to 30% higher than they in fact where, as proven by the log he originally posted, deleted from his site and then claimed that he didn't know how it disappeared from his site????? (Very convincing and trustworthy statement"

KGP
23rd February 2009, 06:18 PM
A bread machine can bring such joy. Problem with leaking sail drives? Problem with an auto pilot? Problems with alternator pulleys not aligned and splitting belts? Problems with the boat's construction "manager choosing to ignore them [problems] when he was first made aware of them?"

No problem a batch of bread can't fix! ::)

Aram Vos
3rd September 2010, 04:30 PM
I am sorry but for legal reasons the poster has requested that I delete this post.
ForumAdmin

ka8uet
3rd September 2010, 11:03 PM
I am confused. Is the Fastcat made by St. Francis, or Gideon? In some of the other threads there seems to be some connection. It is stated that a Fastcat, built by St. Francis Marine, is for sale by Gideon.

IreAneY
4th September 2010, 09:58 AM
Alledgedly I believe that this particular Fastcat was built by St.Francis but Gidders was basically claiming that it was a Fastcat due to some changes and therefore misleading people as one of his hundreds of boats sold:rolleyes:.

If I am wrong someone please correct me. :)

paulrack
4th September 2010, 09:19 PM
The same for his "fastcat305", it is actually a Rayvin 30.

ForumAdmin
5th November 2010, 02:23 PM
Alledgedly I believe that this particular Fastcat was built by St.Francis but Gidders was basically claiming that it was a Fastcat due to some changes and therefore misleading people as one of his hundreds of boats sold

The boat was built with some mods as per any St Francis by St Francis. Gideon had no more right to call it a Fastcat than i have to call it a Paul50 - in fact as my mods were greater I have more right:)

As it happens it does now seem that Gideon has only sold 2 Fastcats in all this time - I think the boat we counted as a half before may be down to 1/4 to at the most 2.25 boats - note the decimal:)

I think the publicity has prevented more victims.

BackonLand
12th November 2010, 08:43 AM
As it happens it does now seem that Gideon has only sold 2 Fastcats in all this time - I think the boat we counted as a half before may be down to 1/4 to at the most 2.25 boats - note the decimal:)The decimal play while, incredibly ::)is unfortunately wrong. I own the AI, so you don't have to count in decimal points any more.


I think the publicity has prevented more victims.Which is a shame, because despite what you think, the boats are excellent. Anyone who followed my thread on CF (in 2007 and 2008) on multihulls saw that I found the boat I was looking for based on advise from a ton of cruisers. I have had an amazing time with the boat and have nothing out of the ordinary to say about Gideon. If you read my blog you will see what I have experienced with African Innovation and if you talk to any of the boats I met and sailed with in the Atlantic, Caribbean or Pacific, you will see that they have nothing but admiration for the boat. I have yet to meet someone that either came onboard for a drink or who came and sailed with me not be converted to catamarans (and FastCats).

ForumAdmin
12th November 2010, 11:08 AM
Whilst your boat is still registered as owned by a company owned by Gideon please do understand that your refusal to even see the other issues such as false claims, the problems of B&B etc make any comment you make of little weight.

I understand that you have to sell the boat and I am sure that given the incredible conversion of those seeing the boat over to Fastcats you should have no problem.:)

BackonLand
13th November 2010, 11:52 AM
Whilst your boat is still registered as owned by a company owned by Gideon please do understand that your refusal to even see the other issues such as false claims, the problems of B&B etc make any comment you make of little weight.

Excellent work. Nothing like stifling the voice of the "opposition". Can you imagine if you had someone who actually enjoys FastCats, Gideon and African Cats after sales support on your forum? ... Oh no, that wouldn't be right. It doesn't fit with your view and a few of your friends here.

Between you, it has been made very clear that you don't appreciate and certainly don't respect anyone with a differing view from you, so instead of wasting my time here, I think it's time for me to focus on more serious forums, where peoples views are actually appreciated. Like CF.

ForumAdmin
13th November 2010, 02:59 PM
I am do anything but stifling your voice - I am simply countering your points in a factual manner. Its only here that you can actually freely express views on both sides and that is all that is happening.

Both of you have expressed your support of the after sales service, the quality of the boat and Gideon on here and not a word has been censored. So how can you possibly hold onto your point that such views are not allowed here?


Between you, it has been made very clear that you don't appreciate and certainly don't respect anyone with a differing view from you, so instead of wasting my time here, I think it's time for me to focus on more serious forums, where peoples views are actually appreciated. Like CF.

I do appreciate your view and you have stated it very clearly and I have stated my view. That is what an open free discussion is about.

By all means head off to CF but you must appreciate that there such discussions are not even allowed. Is that the type of world you prefer? A censored world were dissent is stifled.

BigCat
13th November 2010, 06:50 PM
Excellent work. Nothing like stifling the voice of the "opposition". Can you imagine if you had someone who actually enjoys FastCats, Gideon and African Cats after sales support on your forum? ... Oh no, that wouldn't be right. It doesn't fit with your view and a few of your friends here.

Between you, it has been made very clear that you don't appreciate and certainly don't respect anyone with a differing view from you, so instead of wasting my time here, I think it's time for me to focus on more serious forums, where peoples views are actually appreciated. Like CF.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! -I wonder if this is Gideon posting under an alias.