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Medcat
21st March 2011, 04:07 AM
Does anybody know how many FastCat have been sold? All models? Thanks

ColdFusion
21st March 2011, 11:49 AM
I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but the answer is somewhere in the region of 'not very many at all'. Don't believe some of the high numbers spouted in the past from African Cats or Gideon Goudsmitt! And if you're considering buying a Fastcat yourself I would advise treading VERY carefully. Suggest you do some googling and read, read and read some more.

Nordic
21st March 2011, 12:44 PM
Does anybody know how many FastCat have been sold? All models? Thanks

If you mean boats actually built by African Cats in Durban for customers it's probably not more than 5 or 6 in as many years. There are 2 or 3 demo boats in Holland as well.

Practically all the boats have had major issues of some kind and a very unresponsive builder judging by the original blogs. (Some have been "doctored" otherwise the company would not help the owners)

These boats are no way performance cruisers, performance is pretty much like a FP or Lagoon. 8-10 tons for a 44 ft cat with the sail area they have is not going to give you the performance advertised.

I would recommend extreme caution in dealings with that company.

Alan

sigmasailor
6th April 2011, 02:46 PM
Does anybody know how many FastCat have been sold? All models? Thanks

Best way to find out is contact the company directly; I'm sure the owner would answer any questions.

Eric

Nordic
6th April 2011, 06:07 PM
With the track record Gideon has, I would be very cautious about believing any information presented. He has renamed some other boats that he has been the dealer for, as fastcats. I urge that you get enough information to enable you to verify any claims made by Gideon.

scotte
7th April 2011, 04:05 PM
Yes, African Cats will claim that they have built hundreds of boats, but they have only built maybe 4 in 8 years. Two of those boats have some pretty well documented serious issues...

Jeannius
17th April 2011, 01:14 PM
Saw one called African Seawing last week in the Tobago Cays

Nordic
17th April 2011, 09:13 PM
That was the second one, the first one actually built for a customer, It's Franks boat, they have a blog that has been "adjusted" otherwise Gideon would not help him. Some pretty big construction issues like the fixing of the forebeam etc.

I hope that all is now well with them, and that they are finally enjoying themselves.

BackonLand
17th May 2011, 07:17 PM
Hull #1 - African Innovation (Now called Double Dutch, owned by a Dutch guy) - My old boat
Hull #2 - African Love (Owned by Gideon)
Hull #3 - African Seawing (Owned by Frank and Martha)
Hull #4 - Butterfly (Owned by Dick and Karen)
Hull #5 - Green eMotion (Owned by Gideon)

This is from memory, I don't know if there has been any launches after Green eMotion launched. I know there are a 3 or 4 more boats in the pipeline, but I'm not sure how far along they are.

ForumAdmin
18th May 2011, 11:27 AM
That means that there are still the same number of owners, three in all, as when i started to look at multihulls back in 2008. Of course we do not know about any new owners there might be after the Green Motion.
I am amazed how the company can survive on such low sale volumes.

EmotionHybrids
16th July 2011, 04:55 PM
Hello all...yep this is David Tether...and yes I educated Gideon who was going to be my dealer in Holland and South Africa. He took every bit of information, and some say I am too honest, and went Dutch on me. You know the Dutch have a saying ... "Why should I invent something when I can get it for free and just make it better". But unfortunately Gideon thought it was all just too easy....and it isn't. I have spent 16 years of my life developing a system that really works. It now has several hundred thousand miles of operation in 50 different boats world wide.
Some of you have heard about me but basically I don't fight to get attention ...Like Siemens, Glacier Bay and, soon to be, Gideon they will fail miserably because they are biting off more than they can chew. Instead I quietly go about my lifes ambition .... cleaning up the water that we so desperately need, protecting the environment and reducing dependency on fossil fuel. My Customer relations is like no other. I decided that if I was going to change the paradigm I was going to change it all. You make one phone call for your motor, generator, batteries, inverter, charger, converter, gauges, throttles and even energy management system. Immediately I replace what ever is broke....then bring it back to my shop....if you broke it I bill you, if you didn't I take you to dinner to make up for your loss.
I am still in touch with every customer I have, even the very first one. I still support the boats after `13 years. Also, everything that I have developed that is new can be retrofitted to the very first system I did.

Isn't that the way we want it to be? Kinda the Do Unto Others thing. Well Gideon can make fantastic claims, and be my competition... you don't have a business until you have competition. But while all this is going on TANG, that TAG yacht mentioned in the above threads now has 8,000 miles and an Atlantic crossing on it. Waypoint, a Lagoon 410 I did 7 years ago, was in charter for 4 years, now has 70,000 miles on it, sold to the second owner who loves it, is being supported by me and the motors have still not lost one inch ounce of power...not one.

It's my lifes work..I will change the world.... and I don't have to fight Gideon to do it. It is what it is.

Dave T.

dmmbruce
16th July 2011, 08:09 PM
David welcome. I have heard of you via the forum for some time so it is very good to see you here. Good news about your systems has traveled well.

May I be cheeky and ask what has caused you to post in the way that you have. Is there something behind it? ;)

Mike

Talbot
17th July 2011, 08:01 AM
A big welcome from me as well.

I have never had any concerns about the electric motor end of the system. I have always been much more concerned by the storage of power, andthe weight/amount of power. This for boats (and vehicles) is the achilles heel. Until we get affordable powerful batteries that have lots more power per kilo, the electric option will struggle to compete on a cost basis. The new technology batteries are here (e.g. the latest lithium mix discussed elsewhere on this forum) but the cost for one battery is so high that I cannot even justify the replacement of my normal house batteries. If they were costed at anywhere near normal wet cell, I would expect the electric drives to make a major impact on boat power.

Ozmultis
17th July 2011, 11:28 AM
Welcome David. Very happy to see you in our little forum.

sigmasailor
17th July 2011, 05:57 PM
Hi David, welcome to this forum.

Isn't the system Gideon bought from you installed on the African Seawing?

I read the blog by Frank some time ago and seem to remember he had problems with heat development and not getting the power he expected (5 knots max). I cannot remember all the details but he did change some components but still wasn't a 100% satisfied. Latest news is that he is negotiating with Gideon to replace the whole system for a 'Green Motion' system.

I never saw 'your' system in action but it makes me wonder if you can really claim to be the inventor of such a system. The idea of regenerating power is not new; they did this over a 100 years ago in electric cars. Isn't the clever selecting of existing equipment and components and developing your own stuff (if you cannot buy it) a normal part of product development? I never saw pods moving up and down in any other design (don't know about Tang; their website seems to be in maintenance). Lagoon has propeller shafts I think. I also read of a number of electrical Lagoons being converted to Diesel (pity).

I admire everyone for developing clever applications to conserve energy; keep up the good work.

Eric

EmotionHybrids
18th July 2011, 04:34 AM
All,

The reason for my post was that in the past I have kept out of other peoples poorly designed products. I stayed away from pointing out their mistakes. Well, being the guy that is still here and having success at not only designing and integrating the systems, but getting them to last 13 years on the water, I have found that when someone jumps out there with a half baked idea I end up having to deal with it. Cases in point:
No I didn't sell any systems to Gideon, I spent a lot of time and money educating him and he tried to reverse engineer what I was doing - and did a terrible job. I too have heard from several people, including one of his captains, that the systems ran too hot, broke down all the time and weren't integrated well at all.
Every Lagoon I ever did is still on the water with its electric system in it. The Lagoons that are having their electric systems replaced are from when Lagoon had an internal engineer that thought he could do better than what I had....using folk lift motors at 72vdc. That was the Lagoon 420 which came out with Diesel Electric as standard. Well, that didn't work well at all and the boats only did 5 kts. I think there are only a couple left with their Hybrid systems on them.
I brought FischerPanda into this industry by having them build 144vdc autostart gens for me....within 2 1/2 years they decided they knew more and announced they were going to compete with me. I have only seen one boat that has survived and that is Jergen Mertens boat, one of the founders, and I think he is working on it all the time. Amazingly, a couple years after they started and after they stuck it up my nose they came back and wanted me to help them make their system work!! True Story!
I then went to Kevin Alston at Glacier Bay to build generators for me...I had the first 4 Glacier Bay generators which were not done too well but kinda limped along thanks to the battery packs that allowed them to turn off and cool down. Their arrogance then led them to believe they could compete so they did and immediately started negative marketing me...put about 12 boats on the water and all failded miserably. It hurt the industry because they did all this marketing about how they really made it work...they even bribed Nigel Calder into being on their Board of Advisors.

Any way you look at it I end up explaining why everyone else is failing miserably and take the hit.
Regen, no I didn't invent it, I never said I did, but what I did do is study it and then develop systems that maximize it. That includes re adjusting the motor and controller designs to make them better than anything ever has been at it. My systems regenerate better than any generator, wind mill and are only mached by power plants on the Niagra. Where else have you seen a 40 - 60 foot cat generating 6kw to 8kw from his props?
I almost exclusively use shafts and props. Sometimes Sonic Sail drives. All because they are 1:1. Screw Pods and all the rest of that mechanical nightmare....it is splitting hairs in terms of efficiency increases but taking mean time between failure to new lows....most of them have to be pulled every year regardless. Our motors were designed to push props...so they want to be 1:1 with the prop. They have built in thrust bearings and nickel plated magnets. They are true brushless DC and will operate underwater.
Gideon has, over the years, been a total pain. His is claiming efficiencies and capabilities that aren't true. He cost me a lot of money to educate him and then just blew me off. His arrogance is monumental. He is doing a dis service to the industry. But he is in St. Francis S.A. and I haven't seen much good come out of there except lions and tigers. My favorite South African boat is Gun Boat....now that is a quality built multi hull!

ForumAdmin
18th July 2011, 08:37 AM
David
Gideon is not in St Francis SA and never has been. Why do you claim that?

Also can you please make it clear - are you responsible for the TANG design? Which, of course, also comes out of the St Francis area.

sigmasailor
18th July 2011, 08:47 AM
Thanks David,

That does put a number of issues into perspective. Being relatively new (joined a little over a year ago) to this forum I have started reading on the Internet and and trying to learn something. I found your website and read all (well most of it) of that last night. I clever use of existing technology I must say; I'm glad there are even some Dutch (Victron) parts involved. Do you make your own 'motorgens'?

I met Gideon since he invited me to join him on a test sail he had with Chris last year. What I saw was a fast cat (as the name says) that handled really good (my own previous experience being on a Lagoon 380). I also saw the Green Motion system simply doing its job; no drama. The lifting pods proved to be really handy since we were able to free the propellers from lots of plants without even getting wet. Other than that it just did the job it was supposed to do, without noise and diesel fumes.

I could'n help noting you were involved on Tang; can you tell us what happened on that boat? All I see now are rumors about exploding parts and something (nonsense?) about a sine wave form. Isn't Tang using a chopped up DC (PCM) like you explain so clearly on your website?

Eric

sea garden
22nd July 2011, 12:46 AM
I have followed tangs developement for quite some time on tags website as i was truly interested in the boat. I found the tang website awhile back when it was first posted that the boat had been launched. so i had followed tangs website up till it was shut down and have read all the things that were done wrong or shoddy or not at all. One of the things that was brought up was the fact that tag yachts had failed [neglected] to install all the components for the electric propulsion. Cannot remember everything but do remember that they did not bother to install the cooling fans for the motors. I have no vested interest other than following what is going on. just felt like adding some info as to what could be part of the problems with tang

Hyprdrv
4th August 2011, 06:19 PM
I think one of the things that is making this confusing is the grouping of all things electrical under one problem. Dave designs Propulsion Systems and has nothing to do with the multitude of systems on TANG that were installed or have failed. (Haven't heard if the Vac system is still working.)

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

EmotionHybrids
4th August 2011, 08:46 PM
Steve -- thanks for the help and glad to see you are on here ! Anymore I find that the answers are better from an owner than me. As far as TANG goes EMP provided the Inverters, Converters, Chargers, motors+controllers, throttles, Breakers, Energy Management system, generators (which are built to our spec). The big problem with TANG is NO - Zero - Nein ventilation in the aft compartments or motor spaces...I am actually pretty proud of the motors which made it accross the atlantic running in 220 degree F environments. The controls would shut them selves down from time to time with over temp but then came back on by themselves. The literally left the motors on for the entire trip .... so they were running or regenerating for a month 24/7. Try that with your diesel!
The exploding things you may have heard about were the MWS modules (MWS is a load management system like EPLEX was, or CZone, or CAPI2). The modules arbitrarily caught on fire and the CE inspector insisted that there be a halon ball type fire extinguisher every where there were MWS modules. Sadly but maybe fortunately we can't find MWS on the web any more...and it seems they are shut down.
The owner had hired EMP to act a PM to remove the MWS modules, bring the wiring in the entire boat up to spec (none of it was tinned and much not the right size) and assist in getting the boat up and going. I will not comment on TAG ... my mom said if I couldn't say something nice not to say anything at all. There you have it.
Steve, who is on here has a Lagoon 410SE (Special Electric)... Great guy, the boat has a bucket full of miles on it (I personally love the 410s...just a great boat...not a race boat...but most of the race boats out there are quite litteraly BS unless they are so spartan that you have 5 gallon pails for heads. Everyone tries to combine racing with cruising and the purists know that doesn't work. The only place I have seen it even close was a Techtron Shuttleworth design...that allowed you to remove most of the amenities when you wante to race. We set the gen in the cockpit so it could be removed and the battery pack was little Group 24s....about 30 minutes at 4.5kts....when racing was done....the holding tanks went back on, the gen back in, the refrig, cushons, water back in the water tanks and it was a cruiser again....kinda.... Shuttleworths hull design is two stage that is pointy when it is light for racing and fat and round when it is loaded up. It's the best of both worlds IF you can remove a lot of the weight for racing....if you can't then you should absolutely go to a cruising hull and put lots of sail on it....there is actually less resistance. Take the Lagoon 410 and the Manta. Right out of the factory the Manta with empty tanks and no cruising stuff on it would do 13 - 14 in a blow...load it up for cruising and you are lucky to get 9 in a blow. The Lagoon doesn't care is it is stone empty of full of stones....it can do 10 to 11 in a blow and some have experienced more. A racing hull increases hull resistance with every pound you put on it...the load bearing round hulls like Lagoon take a hundred pounds with barely negligeable increase in hull resistance.
Dave

Pete Mitchell
5th August 2011, 04:10 AM
...They [EMP motors] are true brushless DC and will operate underwater.
Dave, could you please elaborate on this statement? Did you mean to say that you have submersible motors similar to the ones used on Gideon's Green eMotion? I ask because I have not seen those types of motors listed on your website. Or did you mean that your motors are encased in a waterproof housing and could possibly operate while submerged in a flooded motor compartment?

EmotionHybrids
5th August 2011, 12:35 PM
I mean they are true brushless DC...there are hall effect sensors and no commutation. Most DC motors, especially 3 phase DC motors, use brushes, contacts or optics to determine movement on the rotational part of the motor. We use a Hall effect sensors which are switched by the magnetic field of the magnets. The windings are also tripple coated and the hall effect sensors are epoxyed into the windings. Then the Magnets are Nickel plated. Also the bearings are totaly sealed.
We have spared no expense on these motors and it is said in some articles on our web site, but because this would be over the head of many users we don't dwell on it. Instead, we let some think it is sealed knowing that even if your boat is sinking the motor will still run underwater and full of water. The Controllers are a different story, but if they are mounted 6 feet above the motors then you gan litterally be going down and point your boat to shore and it will keep going until the batteries and controllers are submersed.
Gideon, I am not sure what he is using I have never looked at it. I must say it kinda angered me that he would act like my friend and want to really be a Solomon dealer for us in the EU .... and then just steal the IP and duplicate it, especially when I didn't have the money to fight it in the EU where the patent office is like the wild wild west. The rest of these Pod guys are praying their seals hold and need inspection and maintenance every year.
NO ONE makes a better motor than we do except for the Space Program, and even then it isn't better it is equal. Yes I know, it is expensive, but with fuel savings, peace of mind, 250,000 MTBF, impervious to the marine environment....it is worth every penny of it. After 15 years I still have the 1st manufactured prototype that was in the Casey at Solomon for `8 years and now 7 years later is still working and hasn't lost one inch ouce of power or one percent of efficiency.
Planned obsolescense....nope not here.... I decided that if I was going to change the paradygm I was going to change the whole thing. No more having maintenance that costs you 10% of what the motor costs every year you use it. Volvo perfected that...the motor is sold to you real cheap but the maintenance and repair parts cost you an arm and a leg. It is built as good as it can possibly be built and if you find something to make it better, give me a holler.

sigmasailor
5th August 2011, 12:48 PM
One advantage of having true submerged motors is that you have no cooling problems. For a moment I thought that the motors were used submerged as well. Now I understand they are just made to be waterproof but run in air (which heats up).
Don't you cool the controllers with water: it would mean getting rid of all the access heat and not heating up the inside of your boat.
Running the systems you need to dissipate a couple of kilowatts at least, Without water cooling you need some big fans; do I understand there was no ventilation at all? Must have been really warm in that boat. 220F is well over a 100 C; a good environment for cooking; less so for electronic stuff.

EmotionHybrids
5th August 2011, 01:48 PM
Nothing is water cooled on our system. And I don't like putting the motors in the water either as built by some of those folks...there are serious ramafications as well maintenance issues. Small motor diameter, small props, bearings that can fail, flex issues in the hull and least we forget...hit a submersed container or log doing 8kts. And no you don't need large fans either...when you are running at 96% controller efficiency an 94% motor efficiency...it is only 5 inch muffin fans, one putting cool air in and one pulling heat out.
But every one has their opinion.... Mine is to keep it simple and easily maintainable.

sigmasailor
5th August 2011, 05:09 PM
Wow, 94% efficient; that is more than I have ever heard off! Do you use niobium magnets to achieve that? Still find it hard to believe these kind of motors are better than 90-91% efficient. If the motors and controller are that efficient how did you manage to heat up the space into which they are mounted up to 220F?

That is assuming they are all mounted in different compartments and not sailing full speed but lets say at 10kW each (7 knots?). Your motor would generate a mere 600 watts; hardly enough to heat up a space a couple of cubic meters to those temperatures; something else must have played a role.

I also see you still use (hall) sensors; why not make the leap to sensor-less motors?

Something else you stated made me wonder. You mentioned earlier Gideon stole all your ideas; yet you have never seen his version of green motion. You can hardly claim that 'your' idea of using batteries, controllers and electric motors was stolen; that idea is more than a hundred years old. The way to put it all to practical use it what developers do; and that is where differences emerge.

Eric

EmotionHybrids
5th August 2011, 08:28 PM
Look Eric, I don't have time for your rhetoric. For your information they are a mix of NdFeBoron with Samarium Cobalt and flux focused magnets...ever heard of it? If they are built right they will be 94% all day long....and I have seen hand wound motors of the same geometry and magnets that are 96% efficient. And it really isn't the Magnets anyway, it is the Magnet gap, winding technique and skew of the laminations that have everything to do with efficiency for motoring or regeneration.
As far as Gideon....ASK HIM...he knows where he came up with 144vdc, the idea, even his first generators, and inverters/converters and he even asked me to help him come up with Controls (that's some Dutch arrogance) and for a while was trying to buy the same motors I use but my manufacturer won't sell them to anyone else because it is my geometry.
As far as you go, if you are so good why aren't you out here as my competition instead of being on the side lines as a flamer? And lets see, what do you think the accumulative heat build up will be over a 2 week 24/7 process....lets see, dah, 24hours X 1kw x 14 days...well that's a lot of BTUs.

Gentlemen I don't have time for this, so I think I will put this Eric on Ignore. If you have inteligent questions that I can answer I would be glad too, but I am not into battling with a sideline genius.

sigmasailor
5th August 2011, 09:12 PM
Dave,

I've never heard of that magnetic stuff. I will try to look it up in Google; I'm always eager to learn something, thanks for the info. Edit: Found out that it as mix between Neodymium (my mistake, I called it niobium) and another (weaker) rare earth magnet; the same stuff they use in hard drives.

I have been doing some reading this evening and found this: 98% (http://www.csiro.au/resources/pf11g.html). Even higher efficiency seems possible (just click the download button to find lots of info).

Had to look up 'rhetoric'; I'm sorry you feel that way; maybe there is more to the subject after all causing you to over-react? All I did was asking some questions to the builder of the 'best motor in the world' in the hope of learning something. Rest assured; it is not my ambition to become a boat or propulsion system builder; I never claimed to be 'that good', I merely asked some honest (to me) questions.

To answer your question: I do understand that heat (you mention 1000 watt meaning they were running the motors flat out all the time?) needs to be dissipated. When temperatures rises above ambient that will happen to the outside world by conducting through the boats hull and other panels. Not all the heat (Joules rather than BTU in Europe) will stay in the compartment. I find it hard to believe that a boat costing millions wouldn't have some form of ventilation in its engine room (in Europe that would result in a non compliance to EC rules). Good thing you built in temperature sensors shutting down before things really get out of hand.

I hope you find the stuff in the link useful. Does keep me wondering what happened with Tang.

Eric

Pete Mitchell
5th August 2011, 09:15 PM
Dave, thanks for that informative answer to my question. I am considering the idea of electric propulsion, so every bit of info helps in the research process.

One thing I would like to understand a little better is the concept of torque in a PWM motor. For instance, I was comparing the spec sheet for the ASMO Thoosa 9KW motor and your own 9KW motor. The Thoosa spec for their motor torque is 33 Nm rated, 67 Nm peak. Your spec sheet shows 100 Nm, although it does not specify whether it's rated or peak. In either case, your motor seems have substantially more torque than the Thoosa Lynch motor, potentially as much three times more. Yet both motors are "rated" at 9KW, which would seem to imply that at full throttle and load they will both consume 9KW of electricity.

So would my understanding be correct that I may get substantially different torque values per KW of electricity consumed depending on the type of a motor I am using?

I ask because I have seen motor torque commonly defined as T=5252*HP/RPM, which does not seem to leave room for any variation related to the specific motor construction details - except for the RPM. The Thoosa is rated at 2,500, whereas you specify 1,000 RPM as you top speed - which would account for difference in torque ratings. Would that be correct?

(BTW, I realize the motor HP is typically not specified, but it can, of course, be derived from the KW rating.)

If the answer to the above questions is "yes", then I would be interested in how your motor achieves so much more torque per KWs consumed. What determines the design top RPM of a PWM motor? Is it related to a greater flux field density available in your heavier motors vs. the lighter Lynch motors? Or does core saturation somehow come into play?

EmotionHybrids
6th August 2011, 12:36 AM
Pete - you have keyed in on a very important part of what I have done vs what everyone else is doing. Every one else is using off the shelf motors and making them work with small props and gear ratios. Years ago I first determined that the prop was the most important part of pushing boats and I found out what a prop wanted to see in terms of power and how that affected the typical displacement hull form. Props like low RPM and high torque. We actually already knew this because diesels have always out performed gas motors. The faster they go the more water that is thrown out to the side of the blade.
Looking at the history of powering boats...the higest efficiency was seen over a hundred years ago with steam engines. Steam 300 RPM, Diesel 2600-3200 rpm, and gas 4000 to 5000 rpm. The steam used no transmission and had huge props, Diesels use 1.3 -2.6 gears small props and gas is often 2.6 to 3.6 gears with really small props.
I found that we needed to be somehwere in the middle - 1000 RPM and have props in the middle between diesel and steam. Very generally RPM X Torque = Horse Power. so if I had 1/2 to 1/3 the RPM I would have 2 - 3 times the torque if the HP remains the same because they are inversely proportional. The motor design then determined that if it was in a 12" diameter package we would have 1 amp = 1 foot lb of torque at 144vdc (Also, everything about our motors is 24/7 continuous duty, torque/hp/rpm - I don't even state the peak torque or HP..didn't think it was fair). So the ASMO Thoosa motor is a higher rpm with lower diameter and therefore less torque. Beyond that the ASMO is also a motor that was designed for lower voltage and is operating in an overcurrent mode to get more power(just like the Lynch motor, oops ...has anyone checked out WHY the ASMO and Lynch are so much the same??. The EMP motor is actually totally opposite.....it can handle twice the current that it is rated for and over 200volts and hence the reason why they last a long time in bad conditions.
How does all this play out in the boat....EMP motors push big props that can transfer 80% of the torque to the water for thrust. Most other folks use a gear or belt to gear down and still have smaller props so there are losses, sometimes substantial losses in the prop. The typical Gas prop looses 60% of the energy (yes thats right 50%), the typical Diesel prop losses 40% of the power, our prop selections typically loose only 25%.

History - seems that the best guess is that 100 - 300 rpm Steam Props that were often 36 " diameters only lost 5% of the power. Somehow I don't seem my Lagoon with 3 foot props though.

Talbot
6th August 2011, 06:03 PM
The trouble with swinging a big wide bladed prop is that when not being used to power the boat, in normal installations this provides an enormous brake.

Obviously if you are using this to re-generate power, then there is a decent trade-off. Otherwise, the effect of such a prop will be very significant on speed under sail.

2hulls
6th August 2011, 06:44 PM
The trouble with swinging a big wide bladed prop is that when not being used to power the boat, in normal installations this provides an enormous brake.

Obviously if you are using this to re-generate power, then there is a decent trade-off. Otherwise, the effect of such a prop will be very significant on speed under sail.

AND - where does the power come from when the vessel is not underway and cannot re-generate power, which is the vast majority of the time?

2 Hulls Dave

sigmasailor
6th August 2011, 07:12 PM
How about wind generators and solar energy? Instead of using AC, open up the boat and let the breeze do the cooling.
You could still install a relatively small generator set (6 Kw should be sufficient) which can be run at full capacity; beats running alternators using propulsion diesels all the time. Alternatively, if you really want to be flexible install a 'range extender' (let's say 20-30 kW) to charge both house and propulsion batteries.
Ooops, that was invented already; just look at the title of this topic.

Eric

Karen
6th August 2011, 09:46 PM
Instead of using AC, open up the boat and let the breeze do the cooling.


Eric ...

I feel sure I must have misunderstood your suggestion above. You're not suggesting that a convenient sea breeze is reliable or available just when and as you require it, surely? We have whole days in the Caribbean with not a puff of wind - well not enough to actually do any cooling of anything.

Pete Mitchell
7th August 2011, 12:01 AM
Thanks for that discourse on your design philosophy, Dave, I guess I completely missed the significance of the ASMO Lynch motor gearing :o. You are right, of course, they use a gearbelt drive with a ratio of 22:48 for a prop shaft speed of 1,150 RPM, which makes it similar to your design motor RPM . After all the multipliers are applied accounting for the difference in gearing and RPM, the torque spec is still off somewhat (83 Nm vs. 100 Nm), but a lot closer than before! At last, the balance of the universe has been (partially) restored! :)

So the takeaway from all this is that with your design I am getting a motor that has been substantially overengineered and is therefore a lot more rugged and a lot better able to tolerate the occasional abuse. It has a native RPM at the sweetspot and does not require gearing. It operates at 144 V allowing for greater efficiency and lower battery current rates. All that comes at a certain price, of course, but I guess it is for the well-informed consumer to determine if the higher pricing is worth the extra features.

On another topic, I am fairly new to the concept of permanent magnet motors and I have been wondering what happens with a permanent magnet motor when it is connected directly to the battery without the intervening controller. Will it run at top speed, or will it not turn at all? Electric propulsion skeptics often like to point out that in the event of a lightning strike, the motor controllers will most probably get fried, causing the boat to be immediately dashed to little pieces on the lee shore (in these doomsday scenarios there is always a lee shore lurking nearby, just waiting for a lightning strike :D) - while they triumphantly motor out of danger with their still-chugging diesel.

So I guess the question would be how to prepare for that possibility. Assuming there is no damage to the motors and batteries, spare controllers could be connected - if they are on board and if they can be made operational before that looming lee shore strikes. Jumpering the motors directly to the batteries might be a lot quicker – if it would make the motors run. Is that a viable emergency strategy?

sigmasailor
7th August 2011, 11:18 AM
Pete,

I can answer that one for you. Without a working controller a Brushless DC (BLDC) motor is about as good in propelling a boat as an anchor.

The old fashioned DC motor has an electromagnet on the outside (stator) and a rotor reversing its polarirt using brushes; I don't think these can be damaged by lightning (unless it was a very direct hit).

The BLDC is, you can say, an old fashioned DC motor turned inside out. Since there are no brushes powerful magnets permanently reside on the rotor driving the shaft (they act like the stator of brushed DC motors). What used to be the electromagnets in the rotor is now on the outside; energizing these coils is done by a controller at just the right moment en with varying time regulating the output. In order to time correctly two possibilities are used. One (sensor-less) looks at EMP in unused coils to energize the other coils. In order for this to work the motor must turn through about 120 degrees before the controller sees where the rotor is. No problem on a boat; you won't even notice this. The second method is using hall effect (proximity) sensors; this is uses in cars since it will look funny if you go backwards a little before going forwards.

Eric

sigmasailor
7th August 2011, 03:47 PM
Hmm, no more edit button? I just wanted to put the above lightning issues into perspective. Your modern, computer or black box controlled, diesel engine would be equally useful. Induction would destroy most electronic circuits. I don't think the average motor black box is any better than a controller. Maybe the controller is even better.

A nice and simple Volvo MD7B on the other hand would still work and can even be hand started in that case. I'm not saying we need to go back to those old and 'non green' engines; old school stuff does have a few advantages.

Eric

sigmasailor
7th August 2011, 03:59 PM
Eric ...

I feel sure I must have misunderstood your suggestion above. You're not suggesting that a convenient sea breeze is reliable or available just when and as you require it, surely? We have whole days in the Caribbean with not a puff of wind - well not enough to actually do any cooling of anything.

We've spent some 10 vacations of 2-3 weeks in the Caribbean both on a boat and land based. Never had or really missed AC. The only time it became hot was when you have to stay in the marina ('evening start'); most marina's are too sheltered to allow any wind.

Remember we, like yourself, come from a 'cold' part of the world so have to get used to the heat. We've always managed that without AC (and running generators). So, you didn't misunderstand me; AC is not on our wishlist; just another system that can and ultimately will fail.

Eric

Karen
7th August 2011, 06:46 PM
We've spent some 10 vacations of 2-3 weeks in the Caribbean both on a boat and land based. Never had or really missed AC. The only time it became hot was when you have to stay in the marina ('evening start'); most marina's are too sheltered to allow any wind.

Remember we, like yourself, come from a 'cold' part of the world so have to get used to the heat. We've always managed that without AC (and running generators). So, you didn't misunderstand me; AC is not on our wishlist; just another system that can and ultimately will fail.

Eric

Ah, now I think it is you who misunderstand me, Eric. The issue is not, (to paraphrase dear Bill a little) "to AC or not to AC" -the issue is the reliability and availability of wind. Have you ever holidayed in the Caribbean during the Hurricane Season, Eric? If so, then you will know for yourself that there are days when there is precious little wind and precious little sunshine. Days when the solar panels and wind genny simply cannot supply the juice required for ordinary stuff - let alone AC.

For what it's worth, we don't have AC either. Sold it to a pal who needed it for charter guests. We simply never used it even in marinas. And the saving in weight was a big bonus, of course.

sigmasailor
7th August 2011, 07:56 PM
Hi Karen,

We never went to the Caribbean in Hurricane season (for obvious reasons) so I have no experience in that period. I do know from my brother in law (lives in Curacao) that right now till November can be humid and sometimes windless. I guess that is what you mean. So, if you simply mean the wind is not always reliable you're completely right.
Still prefer a fan (on land a big slow turning fan) over AC (I know personal opinion). Sometimes (in hotels or malls) AC is 'forced upon you'; always makes my throat sore and my nose snotty.

Having fun out there?: noticed that your blog is a little quiet.

Eric

Nordic
7th August 2011, 09:51 PM
[[QUOTE]B]Years ago I first determined that the prop was the most important part of pushing boats [/B]and I found out what a prop wanted to see in terms of power and how that affected the typical displacement hull form. Props like low RPM and high torque. We actually already knew this because diesels have always out performed gas motors. The faster they go the more water that is thrown out to the side of the blade.


Yes the prop is the most important part of the propulsion system.:D


Looking at the history of powering boats...the higest efficiency was seen over a hundred years ago with steam engines. Steam 300 RPM, Diesel 2600-3200 rpm, and gas 4000 to 5000 rpm. The steam used no transmission and had huge props, Diesels use 1.3 -2.6 gears small props and gas is often 2.6 to 3.6 gears with really small props.

I beg to differ: You need to define what you mean by efficiency clearly. In my book, I reckon we need to look at the energy in a given volume or weight of fossil fuel, and then compare that to what the motor is delivering at the shaft. The next step is looking at propeller efficiency.

The most efficient propulsion systems in vessels today (not including nuclear reactors:D) are the big diesels from makers such as MAN or B&W etc. These run at around 80 to 90 rpm at full throttle.

I suggest that you need to start at the other end of the system, decide what size prop you can "live with", then calculate the power necessary and vessel speed, from this prop pitch and engine revs can be matched.

Gear boxes are pretty efficient, so I don't understand your focus on avoiding them. Your comparison of steam, gas and diesel is not correct, a steam engine based propulsion system has less than 25% efficiency, where the best diesel based systems have over 35%, this is excluding the propeller.

Propeller efficiency can be improved by use of a nozzle.



I found that we needed to be somehwere in the middle - 1000 RPM and have props in the middle between diesel and steam.

The typical Gas prop looses 60% of the energy (yes thats right 50%), the typical Diesel prop losses 40% of the power, our prop selections typically loose only 25%.
.

Do you have any hard data to back that claim up?

I know that compromises have to be made regarding weight, size etc. but your claims are not very specific.... e.g " have props in the middle between diesel and steam"

Propeller efficiency varies with:

Diameter
Pitch
Speed
Swept Area and shape
Surface roughness
Number of blades
as well as the size and shape of any "shadow" from the hull or other appendages in front of the prop.

Your claims need to be backed up by hard facts to make them credible, I'm not saying that your system is not one of the better ones around.

If you are going to have a diesel on board anyway, my choice would be:

A diesel driving a rather large slow revving variable pitch propeller. I would have a fuel monitoring system that gives me a readout in litres/Mile or gal/mile and optimise the pitch when the engine is running at it's "sweet spot".

In reality, the best solution is what most have today, an auxiliary diesel swinging a prop. Use: In and out of port and to keep out of danger. Efficiency: OK, but who cares at the end of the day. It's simple, easy to fix, relatively light, reliable.

Alan







]

sigmasailor
7th August 2011, 11:16 PM
Alan,

The whole fun of coupling the prop to an electric motor is you can use it the regenerate power; the diesel that makes diesel when it is turned over still needs to be invented. From a KISS point of view I do understand what you are saying.

The above efficiencies are even worse. A true steam engine (not a turbine) might not even achieve 25% (closer to 10%) while while modern (you forgot Sulzer) low revving diesel engines are 50% (or even more today?) efficient. In 'my' days as marine engineer (late 70ties) 35% efficiency was possible with Stork Engines running at 120 rpm max (154 gr/hp/hour).

I don't have any figures about props but realize that is where a big advantage can be made. The nice thing about electric motors is their ability to develop torque at very low rpm (one of the reasons why ice breakers are diesel -electric).

Eric

Ozmultis
8th August 2011, 12:47 AM
The trouble with swinging a big wide bladed prop is that when not being used to power the boat, in normal installations this provides an enormous brake..

Not on my boat - Stop the motors - lift the motors, no prop drag or fouling

Pete Mitchell
8th August 2011, 02:26 AM
The trouble with swinging a big wide bladed prop is that when not being used to power the boat, in normal installations this provides an enormous brake.

Obviously if you are using this to re-generate power, then there is a decent trade-off. Otherwise, the effect of such a prop will be very significant on speed under sail.
I think that's where the retractable motor pods, as implemented on the Green eMotion, come into play. When you are done motoring you rotate the pods up under the cockpit deck to maintain a clean, unobstructed water profile for efficient sailing. I have seen some other implementations of retractable drive units, but Gideon's solution seems to be the most elegant. I suspect it's not without its problems, as Dave Tether points out, but I think those issues could be solved with further engineering refinement. I can envision such a modified system being able to swing a 3-foot prop on each catamaran hull.

Pete Mitchell
8th August 2011, 03:16 AM
Pete,

I can answer that one for you. Without a working controller a Brushless DC (BLDC) motor is about as good in propelling a boat as an anchor.

Yeah, I suspected as much, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.

So this inability to power the BLDC motors in case of a controller failure is IMO a real drawback that's perhaps not well understood or appreciated. With a standard series-wound brushed DC motor, one could find a relatively cheap way to power the motor in an emergency. If the fancy (and expensive) controller dies, one can always throw the full battery voltage across the motor and hope that the current inrush doesn't destroy the motor, or wrench the coupling or the shaft out of the hull. Or one can equip the motor bay with a power resistor to insert into the circuit to limit the starting current, and then jumper out the resistor once the motor is running.

Alternately, one could carry a couple of simple IGBT-chopper type PWM controllers as spares in case the main controller quits. These relatively cheap choppers could even be mounted permanently in the motor bay and be ready for deployment in an emergency by throwing a couple of knife switches to bypass the original controller.

Things would not be so simple with the brushless motors. As you point out, these motors require a fairly sophisticated controllers driven by a micprocessor. I don't know what these controllers cost, but I suspect we are looking at several thousands of $. Unless you carry one or two of these as spares, you would be SOL as far as propulsion goes.

However, there might be some hope. I have done some limited googling on this topic and it appears that there are some development kits out there for a very reasonable price (<$100) that provide an IC solution to the PM brushless motor controller design. Being microprocessor based, these kits allow for extensive software tuning of key parameters to conform to a particular motor's topography.

With the availability of such a reasonably-priced development kit, I can envision carrying a couple of these as emergency spares. The major expense would probably be the cost of the actual power MOSFETs or IGBTs in the driver stage, but for a three-pole motor, six of these would probably run close to $500 for a reasonably sized motor. So instead of carrying ten grand in controller spares, I might get by with less than $1,500 and have some assurance that I won't get stranded in some exotic location.

Pete Mitchell
8th August 2011, 03:42 AM
For what it's worth, we don't have AC either. Sold it to a pal who needed it for charter guests. We simply never used it even in marinas.
I see neither one of you have experienced a Key West marina in August. If you had, I suspect you'd be singing a different tune... :)

Hyprdrv
8th August 2011, 11:33 AM
The Solomons motor Dave Tether's original company used were 2 motors in one requiring 2 controllers. The cost of the controllers was $1,600 each. If one controller failed the motor would still run on the other at 50% of total output. The original controllers are no longer available however replacements will be offered by AMC (original supplier) controllers at some point. Newer microprocessor Controllers are being developed as well by another company at a slightly higher cost but one processor will handle both coupled motors reducing the total cost by 40% per motor are more efficient and durable. Yes you loose some redundancy but having a spare on board that can be replaced in around 15 minuets becomes more attractive. In the case of a lightning strike and the sails fall off the boat it will still get you home with 1 spare.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

sigmasailor
8th August 2011, 01:33 PM
I wouldn't worry about controller failure too much. I your electronics are wiped out by lighting you can also forget about your modern processor controlled diesel (who carries a spare computer for their diesel engine?); those spares could also be destroyed by lightning. They will have a better change of survival since the are not wired up. Maybe it is a good idea to store them in a special (Faraday cage like) box if you have them.

TanJera
9th August 2011, 04:00 AM
Steve --
The exploding things you may have heard about were the MWS modules (MWS is a load management system like EPLEX was, or CZone, or CAPI2). The modules arbitrarily caught on fire and the CE inspector insisted that there be a halon ball type fire extinguisher every where there were MWS modules. Sadly but maybe fortunately we can't find MWS on the web any more...and it seems they are shut down.
.
Dave

Hi Dave,
I noticed they are still on the internet and lists Tang as one of their projects.

www.yachtwiring.com


Hennie

sigmasailor
9th August 2011, 03:41 PM
I see neither one of you have experienced a Key West marina in August. If you had, I suspect you'd be singing a different tune... :)

You are correct; never been there. I know a simple more environmental friendly way of dealing with that: move your boat to a nicer place. I never really understood why so much energy has to be wasted for AC. Would be OK if you produce that electricity from a renewable source; I guess if it is really warm solar panels would be a good option. Simply burning oil to get cool is something that should stop.

Pete Mitchell
12th August 2011, 12:35 AM
I wouldn't worry about controller failure too much.
Uhmmm, OK... if you say so. :)

This is from an earlier thread on CF:

"A diesel/electric cat in the Ft. Myers area, at dock, suffered a near miss strike last month. All electric and electronic equipment was damaged. Not only the electric motor controllers but both gensets, HVC electricmotor controller they had in the onboard Faraday cage was damaged, but regardless it will take more than replacing a controller to get those motors running again." distribution panel, etc. I don't know if the spare

But... OK, that was from one of the more virulent opponents of electric propulsion. :eek:

But this is from one of today's posts on Mutlihulls4us by "LionalHutz":

"Part way into the 2,000 nm trip from Brazil to St Lucia the motor capacitors did indeed blow up on the port side, leaving them with one motor where they could only motor at 1-2 knots."...

"They replaced the motor controllers on the port side and fixed the starboard side best they could."...

"Here is the interesting part, they made up plans to fly in a brand new motor, and new motor controllers for each motor. Matt Youney flew back to the boat and Aron worked with him to replace 2 motor controllers and they took out the electric motor to get ready for the new motor."...

"So the owner flew in a new captain who was also very qualified, the old captain actually waited for her to arrive and continued to help Matt Youney replace the motor controllers , the electric motor, and other problems as no one else was qualified to do it."...

sigmasailor
12th August 2011, 08:38 AM
What I meant to say was that if lightning really strikes everything will be destroyed regardless of what kind of boat you have. Controllers on 'conventional' modern diesels and generators and even complete switchboards will be destroyed. And of course anything electronic installed on the unlucky yacht. But he, that should be considered 'an act of God' and is very rare (but is does happen). On a sailboat you might still be able to sail on....

Properly designed and built controllers (solid state) and motors shouldn't fail in normal operation. I have no information on Tang other than what I can find on the WWW; something has gone horribly wrong with that boat. Pity that the owner and/or the manufacturer doesn't give us his version of the incidents. All we have now are a lot of unconfirmed 'rumors' from a second or third party.

I read a surveyors report on the TAG website for hull number 2; everything looks well there. It is not often an (independent?) surveyor praises a boat to a degree found in the report: #2 (http://www.tagyachts.com/reports/hull_survey.pdf). I am used to more business like report merely stating aspects are in accordance (or not) with the requirements.

Eric

LionalHutz
24th January 2012, 03:57 PM
I really need to get on forums more often and share what I know, and what Ive found out first hand...

The quote by Dave Tether
"The exploding things you may have heard about were the MWS modules (MWS is a load management system like EPLEX was, or CZone, or CAPI2). The modules arbitrarily caught on fire and the CE inspector insisted that there be a halon ball type fire extinguisher every where there were MWS modules. Sadly but maybe fortunately we can't find MWS on the web any more...and it seems they are shut down.
The owner had hired EMP to act a PM to remove the MWS modules, bring the wiring in the entire boat up to spec (none of it was tinned and much not the right size) and assist in getting the boat up and going. I will not comment on TAG ... my mom said if I couldn't say something nice not to say anything at all. There you have it."

I saw the MWS systems on Tang with the electrical fire damage around some of them that had caught fire during the Atlantic crossing which were replaced by spares on board by the captain that brought it across the Atlantic. Other electrical fires happened at splices, and where connections were made other then at the MWS modules.

DAVE,
My question is why would you say that the motor capacitors on the motor controllers DID NOT explode when they clearly did? Your company sent the new motor controllers down TWICE. The last time I saw the box of controllers on teh boat while visiting and Matt was working for you on replacing them and other components.

I am very curious what you have to say about these and your denial of them failing.

Also if EMP was redoing all the wiring and fixing all the electrical on Tang where is the progress at? its been 6 months since you stated here that you were working on the refit and redo of all the electrical systems, give us an update an an explanation.

The BS and cover ups from Tag Yachts was already so ridiculous now your denying anything happened too?

Here is a picture of some of the MWS modules, and some pictures of the exploded motor capacitors on the motor controllers... I have more pics somewhere ill try to find them.

sigmasailor
24th January 2012, 04:46 PM
... Sadly but maybe fortunately we can't find MWS on the web any more...and it seems they are shut down.

Do you mean this firm: MWS (http://www.yachtwiring.com/Home.html)?

EmotionHybrids
24th January 2012, 06:40 PM
Liona, 1st, get a grip on yourself, are you South African?! Take your meds.
2nd....the reason the controllers were replaced was water intrusion...lots of it from hatches that leaked, bilge pumps that didn't work and salt water coming in directly on to the controllers in following seas from a vent that had no loop for drainage. One hull even sunk in the aft because MWS left the Bilge pumps turned off. Yes, if you put an up and running electronic device in salt water it will usually short out. They do have some little radios and Epirbs these days that don't, but most of the rest of the kit on a vessel like that will. The good news is that through it all, the motors stayed solid, and that even includes 0, zero, nada , niet, no ventilation at all in the engine rooms. By my way of thinking that is a testimony to how well built they are.
Also, if you know so much then you probably already knew that the owner hired EMP to oversee the complete rewire of TANG .... and that included the bad connections made and a litany of things that are too numerous to mention. The customer, who was on the Atlantic Crossing and also flew me to Cape Town when he somewhat dissatisfied with answers he was getting from TAG, had enough confidence in EMPs ability, ethics and dedication to quality to be the Project engineer and is still a very staunch supporter of EMP. TANG will be available for Demo at the Miami boat show and these various issues will be dealt with by the owner.
Truth is it is even much worse than that .... truth is the owner has put over $200,000 in to TANG since it arrived in the US in order to get it straightened out. Truth is TAG never gave the final payment to EMP nor have they given the owner a nickel towards the litany of repairs items. Truth is TANG is still not done with repairs. Truth is I really don't care what kind of trouble you are trying to stir up, the Customer is the real testament to the system.

sigmasailor
25th January 2012, 09:39 AM
Dave,

Liona might by Lional? English is not my first language but it would be the difference between male and female: small detail.

Good to hear progress is made with Tang. Wow; six months and 200k and still not finished? Sounds like a complete refurbishment. Looking at the pictures understandably, everything with wires had to be replaced and then some? Must be a hell of job replacing all wiring at places that are now impossible or difficult to get at.

I read somewhere that the current owner of Tang also became the owner of the yard (TAG); do I understand this correctly?

Eric

EmotionHybrids
25th January 2012, 12:27 PM
You could be right about the "Lional".....and yes TAG lists the boat. They only have done 2 so they are trying to put a positive spin on it. Lional must have gotten those pictures from the Captains web site which the owner had taken down because it was so negative....true...but negative.
The owner of TANG didn't buy the Yard, but it was going bankrupt while his boat was being built and he had to bail them, which is what I heard....then his boat took twice as long and cost twice as much. Seems to be a South African thing, like Gun Boat, a lot of funky chicken stuff going on there. Mostly I try to stay out it and just do my job, but between TAG and Gun Boat I have lost a ton of money all because of some bums rush funky chicken crap. What is happening to our world????!!!! All this junk from China that falls apart, no one is good for their word any more, companies cutting each others throats, wow what a mess. Then Lional quits taking his/her meds.

doubledip
25th January 2012, 12:54 PM
Seems to be a South African thing, like Gun Boat, a lot of funky chicken stuff going on there. Mostly I try to stay out it and just do my job, but between TAG and Gun Boat I have lost a ton of money all because of some bums rush funky chicken crap. What is happening to our world????!!!! All this junk from China that falls apart, no one is good for their word any more, companies cutting each others throats, wow what a mess. Then Lional quits taking his/her meds.

The Gunboats now coming out of China will also be be equipped with your drive systems? Another Tang experience in the making?

EmotionHybrids
25th January 2012, 04:15 PM
Well......:o It is getting funky. I thought they would try to reverse engineer it but they haven't yet......yet! I really don't care at this point. I haven't made any money anyway or I wouldn't be here answering these...would probably be in Brazil enjoying the cruising life and making jewelry with my lovely wife. Instead I endured every one telling me I was crazy, the Vulture Capitalists, me too competition that hurt the reputation of hybrids,down turns in the yachting industry and now the funky chicken! My wife says I am the poorest philanthropist on the planet ! But I think it is our responsibility to take better care of the Planet and if you have ever been out on one of these hybrids you will agree it is just a better way to do it.
All the electricity you ever wanted and Charles Chiodi discovered and did the data collection to prove that it was more quiet to motor the boat than sail it in more that 10kts of wind. Looking through history I am not the first but have managed to put together the best so far...just ask Glacier Bay and Siemens, well and Steyer, and Lagoon, and the rest. So I will just keep pushing my rope and hope it moves further tomorrow.
Dave

sigmasailor
25th January 2012, 05:07 PM
Dave,

As an (undisputed) fan of hybrid you lost me here. What do the Chinese have to do with all this. All I know is that Gunboat seem to have moved (part of) their operation to China.

I couldn't agree with you more; when you're on a properly functioning hybrid sailboat that is as good as it will get.

Eric

EmotionHybrids
25th January 2012, 05:53 PM
The Gun Boat 60 is being produced in China .... at least the first three 60s.

brian eiland
4th February 2012, 01:13 AM
The Gun Boat 60 is being produced in China .... at least the first three 60s.

And now I understand they are moving to North Carolina..:confused:

brian eiland
4th February 2012, 05:23 AM
Let me precede these postings I'm about to make with the statement that I am an 'electrically challenged' person :w)

...from posting#13


..I have never had any concerns about the electric motor end of the system. I have always been much more concerned by the storage of power, and the weight/amount of power. This for boats (and vehicles) is the Achilles heel. Until we get affordable powerful batteries that have lots more power per kilo, the electric option will struggle to compete on a cost basis. The new technology batteries are here (e.g. the latest lithium mix discussed elsewhere on this forum) but the cost for one battery is so high that I cannot even justify the replacement of my normal house batteries. If they were costed at anywhere near normal wet cell, I would expect the electric drives to make a major impact on boat power.

Now rather than battery power, etc, I was really hoping the small scale implementation of diesel-electric power would become a reality. I wanted to get my electric power for those propulsion motors from a compact diesel-electric generator....at least until more viable storage mediums are developed.

What say you to this Dave?

brian eiland
4th February 2012, 05:42 AM
I mean they are true brushless DC...there are hall effect sensors and no commutation. Most DC motors, especially 3 phase DC motors, use brushes, contacts or optics to determine movement on the rotational part of the motor. We use a Hall effect sensors which are switched by the magnetic field of the magnets. The windings are also tripple coated and the hall effect sensors are epoxyed into the windings. Then the Magnets are Nickel plated. Also the bearings are totaly sealed.
We have spared no expense on these motors and it is said in some articles on our web site, but because this would be over the head of many users we don't dwell on it. Instead, we let some think it is sealed knowing that even if your boat is sinking the motor will still run underwater and full of water. The Controllers are a different story, but if they are mounted 6 feet above the motors then you gan litterally be going down and point your boat to shore and it will keep going until the batteries and controllers are submersed.
Gideon, I am not sure what he is using I have never looked at it. I must say it kinda angered me that he would act like my friend and want to really be a Solomon dealer for us in the EU .... and then just steal the IP and duplicate it, especially when I didn't have the money to fight it in the EU where the patent office is like the wild wild west. The rest of these Pod guys are praying their seals hold and need inspection and maintenance every year.
NO ONE makes a better motor than we do except for the Space Program, and even then it isn't better it is equal. Yes I know, it is expensive, but with fuel savings, peace of mind, 250,000 MTBF, impervious to the marine environment....it is worth every penny of it. After 15 years I still have the 1st manufactured prototype that was in the Casey at Solomon for `8 years and now 7 years later is still working and hasn't lost one inch ouce of power or one percent of efficiency.
Planned obsolescense....nope not here.... I decided that if I was going to change the paradygm I was going to change the whole thing. No more having maintenance that costs you 10% of what the motor costs every year you use it. Volvo perfected that...the motor is sold to you real cheap but the maintenance and repair parts cost you an arm and a leg. It is built as good as it can possibly be built and if you find something to make it better, give me a holler.


The old fashioned DC motor has an electromagnet on the outside (stator) and a rotor reversing its polarirt using brushes; I don't think these can be damaged by lightning (unless it was a very direct hit).

The BLDC is, you can say, an old fashioned DC motor turned inside out. Since there are no brushes powerful magnets permanently reside on the rotor driving the shaft (they act like the stator of brushed DC motors). What used to be the electromagnets in the rotor is now on the outside; energizing these coils is done by a controller at just the right moment en with varying time regulating the output. In order to time correctly two possibilities are used. One (sensor-less) looks at EMP in unused coils to energize the other coils. In order for this to work the motor must turn through about 120 degrees before the controller sees where the rotor is. No problem on a boat; you won't even notice this. The second method is using hall effect (proximity) sensors; this is uses in cars since it will look funny if you go backwards a little before going forwards.

Eric
Thanks for that Eric, I think I got most of it.

Then I would ask wouldn't the concept of these PM motors be readily adaptable to the rim-drive motor concept?
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/exciting-new-eps-thruster-propulsion-9432.html

I was certainly hoping so with this concept:
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/

Rim-Driven Propellers: Instead of propulsion blades being attached to a central hub and propeller shaft, they are rooted to the rotating inner rim of a circular nozzle type unit. The rim is electrically driven with a permanent magnet motor, where the motor windings are in the stator and where the rotor has a number of permanent magnets. The electric motor is an integral part of the 'propeller nozzle'. These units are cutting edge technology. First came the rim-driven thrusters, and very soon the rim-driven propulsers.
There are lots of pluses to recommend this new technology:

Smaller diameter than prop counterpart at equal power densities
Can be tucked close under the hull skin for less draft and more keel protection
No constraints as to location as with shafted props…can be located forward,…away from transom pitching
Rim-drive unit can be contained in its own 'waterbox', & accessible, & serviceable without hauling the vessel
Waterbox mounting would allow for partial retractability in shallow waters…full retraction under sail.
Less noisy
Less susceptible to fouling lines
Potentially safer for divers and marine life
No reduction and direction gearboxes required, instant fwd/reverse !!
Phenomenal maneuverability, joy-stick operable (gamefishing plus, plus)
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432 (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432)

With this idea we take care of the retraction, and the motor cooling. And we have a larger diameter 'motor' favored by Dave. Just unsure as to whether it can be made to meet his other requirements??

brian eiland
4th February 2012, 05:50 AM
I think that's where the retractable motor pods, as implemented on the Green eMotion, come into play. When you are done motoring you rotate the pods up under the cockpit deck to maintain a clean, unobstructed water profile for efficient sailing. I have seen some other implementations of retractable drive units, but Gideon's solution seems to be the most elegant. I suspect it's not without its problems, as Dave Tether points out, but I think those issues could be solved with further engineering refinement. I can envision such a modified system being able to swing a 3-foot prop on each catamaran hull.
I think there is some elegance and simplicity in this 'retraction method' if the rim-drive motor can be a reality beyond just being a thruster.
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Section_8_and_Rim_Drives.php

brian eiland
4th February 2012, 05:55 AM
The Solomons motor Dave Tether's original company used were 2 motors in one requiring 2 controllers. The cost of the controllers was $1,600 each. If one controller failed the motor would still run on the other at 50% of total output. The original controllers are no longer available however replacements will be offered by AMC (original supplier) controllers at some point. Newer microprocessor Controllers are being developed as well by another company at a slightly higher cost but one processor will handle both coupled motors reducing the total cost by 40% per motor are more efficient and durable. Yes you loose some redundancy but having a spare on board that can be replaced in around 15 minuets becomes more attractive. In the case of a lightning strike and the sails fall off the boat it will still get you home with 1 spare.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE
This is interesting....any new updates?

I for one would REALLY like to see this technology proceed forward. I'm affraid that some of these teething problems (along with this depressing boat economy) are going to hamper things significantly.

In hope you can keep plugging away Dave :cool:

doubledip
5th February 2012, 11:09 AM
I think there is some elegance and simplicity in this 'retraction method' if the rim-drive motor can be a reality beyond just being a thruster.
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/Section_8_and_Rim_Drives.php

Why not go with a proven (by the racers) and readily available solution like the Amartech retractable drives http://www.amartech.nl/products/retractable-propulsion ?

Should work with all kind of motors, diesel, electric, ...

Anyone have hands-on experience with those drives ?

EmotionHybrids
5th February 2012, 09:41 PM
Brian et al,

I was fossil fuel challenged .. every fossil fuel motor I every worked on left in a box which gave me the bright notion to come up with something that could continue to work without the diesel and allow it to accept renewable inputs.
To the straight diesel electric - it really doesn't work so well as Glacier Bay found out. It does work very well on Cruise Ships where the Hotel Loads are as big or bigger than the power required to move the vessel. Some of the Big cats are approaching that but not really. In the Cruise ship case there is always a generator or two running...as the power requirement to move the vessel increases, the more generators start. This allows multiple generators be use and always be properly loaded and read for load changes...hence converting fossil fuel at the highest efficiency. Glacier Bay systems - the generator has to be able to respond to the electric motor KW requirements. That means it has to be variable and even idling when waiting. These systems actually use more fuel than a properly tuned engine and prop, they have the requirement for variability and the electric losses in the controllers and generators.
Adding the battery pack provides a buffer zone that allows everything (motors, generators, inverters, etc) to always have plenty of energy and always operate at their highest efficiency. This also allows the generator to always have a balanced load and always convert fossil fuel at it's absolute highest conversion rate. The peaks and the valleys are taken care of by the battery pack.
The point that you have missed here is that not every one needs a whopping big battery pack. You can have smaller batteries and the generator just comes on more often and you don't store as much power from renewables. You can micro cycle the batteries and use wheel chair batteries if you wish. If the budget affords, we have lithiums and they are even starting to come down in price. You can remove an extra fuel tank and have the same cruising distance and weight. There are many options.
Dave

brian eiland
6th February 2012, 07:01 AM
To the straight diesel electric - it really doesn't work so well as Glacier Bay found out. It does work very well on Cruise Ships where the Hotel Loads are as big or bigger than the power required to move the vessel. Some of the Big cats are approaching that but not really. In the Cruise ship case there is always a generator or two running...as the power requirement to move the vessel increases, the more generators start. This allows multiple generators be use and always be properly loaded and read for load changes...hence converting fossil fuel at the highest efficiency. Glacier Bay systems - the generator has to be able to respond to the electric motor KW requirements. That means it has to be variable and even idling when waiting. These systems actually use more fuel than a properly tuned engine and prop, they have the requirement for variability and the electric losses in the controllers and generators.
Hi Dave,
After following the subject for quite some time, and reading the very good articles that were presented in Professional Boatbuilder mag, I became fully aware that it was a load balacing situation between generated power and power required....particularly when seeking the efficiencies that were being touted for this new DE technology.

You might note that in several cases I suggested two different size electrical generation plants onboard a single vessel to try and take advantage of low and high power times:

__________________________________________________ ___
1) from my Dynarig motorsailer concept vessel (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/):



Diesel-Electric Powerplants: The rim drive units are electrically driven, so they would require some portion of the latest technologies associated with the ever expanding 'diesel/electric propulsion' technologies:

Diesel/electric power generating units preclude the need for additional
'auxiliary generator(s)'…fewer engines required onboard.
Entire vessel could be powered by versatile options:
1 single big main-unit
2 equal-size units
2 unequal size units, for a high or low power need

Considerable amounts of electric power would be available for all auxiliary equipments onboard, as well as for sail winching & furling operations

__________________________________________________ _
2) from my Kite-Assisted PowerYacht (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht-20319.html):

The power would be a single main engine sized to develop the vessel’s desired top speed, and it could transmit this power by conventional shaft/prop arrangement, or with a azimuthing Volvo IPS dual prop unit, or via a retractable azimuthing Rim-Drive prop unit as I included on my latest dynarig motorsailer design.

Supplementing this single main engine would be a single DC diesel/electric power unit to provide for:
1) Ships electrical requirements
2) Slow speed operation by electric (wing) motor belted to main prop shaft
3) Maneuvering thrusters as required depending upon azimuth capabilities of main prop.

The entire ship would be powered by only two engines, basically sized to provide:
1) Full main diesel power, unimpeded by interceding diesel/electric conversion
2) Slow speed operation and ship’s systems via the smaller diesel/electric unit
3) ‘Twin power’ emergency backup as either engine can run all gear
This configuration more ideally meets the latest thinking for the new diesel/electric DC technologies onboard smaller vessels. Alternatively, two identical diesel/electric plants might be sized such that in combination they would supply the max power required of the vessel, and half power for lesser times.
__________________________________________________ _
I was just trying to stay away from the need of big battery power in these 2 vessels that need a good amount of power....at least until sizable electrical energy storage becomes more viable, less weighty, more affortable, less dangerous, etc

brian eiland
6th February 2012, 07:29 AM
Why not go with a proven (by the racers) and readily available solution like the Amartech retractable drives http://www.amartech.nl/products/retractable-propulsion ?

Should work with all kind of motors, diesel, electric, ...

Anyone have hands-on experience with those drives ?
That's very interesting,...didn't know of it.

I wonder if that system could benefit from the Thompson coupling I wrote about here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/u-joint-cv-joint-thompson-coupling-16397.html

Check out the video of this coupling, verses a CV or U-joint


I would sure seem so considering the angles of that drive

EmotionHybrids
6th February 2012, 02:52 PM
Wow!!! All this from an electric challenged guy. Well what you are describing is just way too complex for me.... and worse yet too many mechanical parts and couplings and kicking in and out thingies. It also doesn't take advantage of one of the main benefits of Hybrid Diesel Electric (hybrid meaning with batteries and renewables- not just diesel electric) which is the fact that Electric motors can push a much much bigger prop than any diesel ever dreamed of. Also, in rough seas the fuel economy of a diesel goes right down the toilet from punching into waves, loosing RPM, building back up and then overspending sliding down the other side. The Brushless DC electric motor technologies and responding to torque requirements before you can even think about it, efficiently and powerfully. Then overspending SLIDING DOWN the back side of the wave is regeneration that helps pay for the energy requirement to go UP the next one.
But the key is prop sizing, a huge prop that would choke a diesel is easy duty for a Continuous torque motor, and the key to efficient boating is a big prop. Then the next big savings, which Nigel Calder and proved without a shadow of doubt, is that this type of hybrid takes the efficiencies of your hotel load items to incredible new heights....I have AC on my boats ALL the TIME, but no generator running.
I like simplicity...electric motor, batteries, generator .... generator runs efficiently because batteries are a buffer. Electric motor runs efficiently pushing big prop. When all else fails, I have regeneration and other renewables to power the batteries.

Hyprdrv
6th February 2012, 03:17 PM
Dave,
How about solar power? I know you did it on the Tang boat, what type efficiency did you get and how many panels? I can't find anything over 60w panels at 48v or an up controller to handle smaller panels. I'm thinking of just going with the house panel array to remove that load off the Propulsion bank.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

Hyprdrv
6th February 2012, 03:33 PM
Oops that may have been the Gunboats running 144v solar arrays.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

sassthathoopie
6th February 2012, 04:22 PM
How many FastCat around ?

1 less than there were before Christmas...

http://butterflyandbarnacle.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/when-ya-gotta-fly/

'Sea Minx' FastCat 445 Green eMotion burned to the waterline

brian eiland
7th February 2012, 10:34 AM
Wow!!! All this from an electric challenged guy. Well what you are describing is just way too complex for me.... and worse yet too many mechanical parts and couplings and kicking in and out thingies.

I'm not exactly follow you on this 'way to complex' statement. I was tying to say there would be one smaller DE system that would be operated when loads were small, and a larger DE system to operate up to full design capacity for the vessel?

That would be a total of two diesel engines each driving two different size generators, no other 'main' diesel engines onboard. Either the 'small system', or the 'large system' could be switched on to run the two (in the case of a cat, or one in a monohull) electric prop drive motor(s).

Now one needs the 'controllers' for those motors. If the controllers are sized to handle the electrical power that passes thru them for the larger DE system onboard, can those same controllers be used inline with the smaller DE package?? In other words can someone get along with just 2 motor controllers, one for each prop motor on board the catamaran, or is there a requirement for smaller prop motor controllers in the case of the 'smaller system's operation??

If I recall properly (I think Hyprdrv mentioned it), your larger motors are actually 2 motors in one? And if that's the case can't just the single portion of the twin motor be operated at the lower load operating condition? Would this change the 'controller size' needs?



It also doesn't take advantage of one of the main benefits of Hybrid Diesel Electric (hybrid meaning with batteries and renewables- not just diesel electric) which is the fact that Electric motors can push a much much bigger prop than any diesel ever dreamed of. Also, in rough seas the fuel economy of a diesel goes right down the toilet from punching into waves, loosing RPM, building back up and then overspending sliding down the other side. The Brushless DC electric motor technologies and responding to torque requirements before you can even think about it, efficiently and powerfully.

Hybrid systems include gas and diesel engines,...and small turbines, and natural gas, etc. It is not just a term for battery power. I agree with you that the prop should be driven by an electric motor,...it's another question as to where that electricity should come from.

I realize it would be great to have it come from some sort of battery source, but lets face reality of this moment. this battery and energy storage situation is a 'developing technology', and changing on a monthly basis. It is EXTREMELY difficult to sell all this new 'developing technology' to a yachtsman getting ready to commit lots of money for a newbuild. So now you are trying to sell him a vessel that is powered by an electric motor, AND you are telling him he needs to install the latest, greatest batteries that just might have some real quirks including explosions and fire.

Dave, drop back and try refrain from selling the whole enchilada, and get the guy started out with electric motor power, but supplied by good old reliable DE sets that he can relate to. Considering the latest turn of events it's the ONLY way I would be able to sell this idea.


Then overspending SLIDING DOWN the back side of the wave is regeneration that helps pay for the energy requirement to go UP the next one.

I must admit that I am not totally sold on the regeneration option onboard vessels. I can see perfectly well that it works for vehicles that require braking very often and to substantial degrees in all of their operation. But the idea of 'dragging' a big prop and substantially slowing my vessel down just to recharge batteries doesn't sit to well with me and a lot of other yachtsmen.

Besides doesn't the regeneration aspect greatly complicate the 'controllers'design and opration?? If it were me I would drop this option for the intial introduction of electric motor power on yachts. That would also jive with my ignoring BIG battery power on the intial installations in favor of good old reliable diesel generations.

Am I correct that these newer 144v DC output generators do not have to operate at a continuous hi-RPM like the old AC gereators, but rather can be slowed down to match the needs of the DC motors running the prop shafts?

As for slowing down going down waves, I've personally found I like to surf waves downwind, and that slowing up too much can have detrimental consequences such as being pooped from the rear cresting wave in .


But the key is prop sizing, a huge prop that would choke a diesel is easy duty for a Continuous torque motor, and the key to efficient boating is a big prop.

I understand that big props at slower RPM's is the ideal....and that electric prop motors can supply these needs with the greatest torque at low RPM's.


Then the next big savings, which Nigel Calder and proved without a shadow of doubt, is that this type of hybrid takes the efficiencies of your hotel load items to incredible new heights....I have AC on my boats ALL the TIME, but no generator running.

Then the AC you have is coming from inverters? That can still be had on a smaller battery bank than one than might power the whole vessel with out a generator. may not be quite as efficient at the present time, but I still have to sell this 'new propulsion idea' to new clients. I doubt you would find many endorsing souls that have anything to do with Tang, including the owner?


I like simplicity...electric motor, batteries, generator .... generator runs efficiently because batteries are a buffer. Electric motor runs efficiently pushing big prop. When all else fails, I have regeneration and other renewables to power the batteries.

You still have that 'nagging' battery question. why do you think it still remains hard to convince a great number of motorist that electric cars are the way to go. You've got to ease them into these new ideas....including wind power, solar power, ground water and geo-thermal power included.

Americans are some of the most conservative buyers on the world's market. Ask me about selling them a new sailing rig...ha.


Am I correct that these newer 144v DC output generators do not have to operate at a continuous hi-RPM like the old AC gereators, but rather can be slowed down to match the needs of the DC motors running the prop shafts? Should be easier on fuel usage and noise onboard the electric driven boat.



Please find my replies in blue above. Brian

PS: Dave I am NOT trying to dispell your knowledge and all the work you have put into selling these ideas. I'm just affraid that if you go away and give up this challenging work, it may fall into a pit of unused technology for a long time, and I would hate to see that happen. I'm just asking you to consider 'adjustments' that might make it more palatable for awhile at the start.

ColdFusion
7th February 2012, 11:03 AM
I must admit that I am not totally sold on the regeneration option onboard vessels. I can see perfectly well that it works for vehicles that require braking very often and to substantial degrees in all of their operation. But the idea of 'dragging' a big prop and substantially slowing my vessel down just to recharge batteries doesn't sit to well with me and a lot of other yachtsmen.
That is exactly how I feel too. Amongst other reasons I sail because I enjoy harnessing the power of the wind and tweaking sails to get the best out of them, which help to keep the boat moving as efficiently as possible. I don't sail to recharge batteries and slow the boat down in the process.

EmotionHybrids
7th February 2012, 12:50 PM
Sorry guys .... not time for this. You don't seem to understand what I am saying , or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

sigmasailor
7th February 2012, 03:53 PM
I must admit that I am not totally sold on the regeneration option onboard vessels. I can see perfectly well that it works for vehicles that require braking very often and to substantial degrees in all of their operation. But the idea of 'dragging' a big prop and substantially slowing my vessel down just to recharge batteries doesn't sit to well with me and a lot of other yachtsmen.


The smart hybrid system lets you lift the (big) prop when you are done charging the batteries. And yes, while you are charging they do slow you down a bit. Is that to big a price to pay to conserve fossil fuels? Times are changing and when you're cruising the extra couple of hours won't make a real difference. It's a pity only few real hybrids are being sold; if more were sold more systems would be built, prices would go down and systems would become even more reliable. And just think about all that diesel that we wouldn't use.

Hyprdrv
7th February 2012, 05:23 PM
How much do you guys think the boat is slowed down by regen?
Do you clean the bottom every 2 weeks?
Do you now have retractable props?
Are you minimizing the power usage on board while under sail?
Chart plotters, Autopilots, and radios in use?
What if you can get all the power you use during a normal Bay sail from Regen? I can.
What if you can recharge your Propulsion batteries crossing the Atlantic? A sister Lagoon 410 "Waypoint" did. http://www.catamarans.com/ElectricLagoon/multihulls_waypoint_article.asp I've NEVER felt the loss of speed was such that I wanted to pull the 18" props off. If I lost 1/2 a knot I couldn't tell the difference. But then I don't clean the bottom every week. If your traveling at 12 knots down a face and generate 10A then head up the next wave using 10A over and over again your net is ZERO use. Try that in an ICE boat. I bet you actually slow down as well descending the wave using fuel AND use fuel going back up. Result is a LOSS/LOSS of fuel or a very tired hand at the throttle.

Dave had a good example at his site of what an electric motor compared to a car internal combustion engine was capable of when talking about torque. Shift a manual trans into 3rd gear with the clutch out and try starting it. The motor jurks the car forward with a little electric starter motor. Now start the car with the clutch in and 3rd gear then let the clutch out. The motor dies. That's how much torque an electric motor has over an ICE.

Technology on batteries is moving fast. I carry 3/4 ton of Propulsion batteries on board. That's 500 lbs over what the stock engines in place weigh. I'm losing some speed but again in open water not a lot. LiPo batteries are dropping in price fast and they are on my want list. Problem is (along with the price) these 6 year old AGM's I have are going strong so that will wait. 1/3rd the weight, run almost twice the time, and charge in 1/3rd the time the old lead acid technology does. This has been the biggest drawback to Electric Sailing and boys the improvements only make it better in the next few years. There is a site that is dedicated to EP boating that have people converting all the time. Mostly smaller boats under the 30-35 ft range but they are starting to become believers. Just in the last year or so here and the Cruisers site you can tell the difference in attitude towards EP. I don't care either way go or no go, just have some understanding or experience before making some of the statements I've seen.

One last thing. David has been doing this for a while. I'm not even sure if the 3-410's where the first but I wouldn't think so. His market is mostly the over 30ft stuff, a completely different market than the small "I can hang a motor off the back of it" boats. The small guys talk about DIY gearing, belts, left over motors from a blender (makes daiquiris to) which work. I have learned a lot from them and the EV world. Dave's world is in a different rotation then these guys and thankfully so. It shows what can be done with the bigger boys toys. Others have tried it and you don't hear much about them. All 3 410's are out there still going strong from his original layouts. The technology only gets better with the electric systems. Can you say the same for ICE? How much Diesel did you burn last year?

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

brian eiland
8th February 2012, 08:40 AM
I just spent a good 45 minutes composing a reply, and then as I was making one last 'capitaliztion correction' I lost it with a screen switch or the wrong button hit accidently. Anyone know how I might find what I wrote as I certainly don't feel like recomposing it again :mad::mad:
Brian

sigmasailor
8th February 2012, 08:48 AM
It is lost forever. I know how you feel. Been there, done that...
Sometimes (if you didn't close your browser) the back button brings it back.
My solution for the longer posts is to make them in Word (safe them) and copy the lot to the forum when finished.
Eric

Karen
8th February 2012, 03:04 PM
I just spent a good 45 minutes composing a reply, and then as I was making one last 'capitaliztion correction' I lost it with a screen switch or the wrong button hit accidently. Anyone know how I might find what I wrote as I certainly don't feel like recomposing it again :mad::mad:
Brian

Infuriating isn't it?

Always try Control + Z first. It will undo your last action. As a safeguard also highlight then copy your message to clipboard (Conctrol + C) before hitting the Post reply button. Then if owt buggers up with the wifi connection or the forum times you out which can happen if you take a long time drafting your reply, you simply use Control V to paste your clipboard-saved draft back in.

Sandy Daugherty
12th August 2012, 06:32 PM
Word is a bit too fancy for forum use, so I compose long replies in Wordpad or Notepad, post it on the forum and spell-check with ieSpell.

But I sometimes suspect Divine Intervention has prevented me from embarrassing myself with too hasty a reply.:rolleyes

Sandy Daugherty
12th August 2012, 06:41 PM
For example, the psychologist/moderator in me wants to analyze everyone's issues and explain why this debate is a lot like two duelists with very bad eyesight, neatly suggesting early childhood experiences as the root of these disagreements. Devine Intervention interceded with a misplaced finger on the keyboard, and everyone escapes with egos intact.:popcorn

Karen
12th August 2012, 11:44 PM
For example, the psychologist/moderator in me wants to analyze everyone's issues and explain why this debate is a lot like two duelists with very bad eyesight, neatly suggesting early childhood experiences as the root of these disagreements.

Or, as the somewhat extraordinary Anais Anin put it ...


"We see the world not as it is, but as we are."


Devine Intervention interceded with a misplaced finger on the keyboard, and everyone escapes with egos intact

I once worked for a gentleman called Don Devine. So Devine (sic) that on day one I walked out at lunchtime and never went back.

Back to business: Divine Intervention might intercede occasionally, Sandy, but it's no substitute for a good night's sleep to clear perspective. And isn't it the tyranny of ego that frequently makes a total pillock of the poster - the ego that insists he or she can't possibly be wrong, so no point even considering a differing opinion or experience?

But what led you back to this old chestnut, I wonder ...