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peter.bomberg
8th May 2011, 12:09 PM
Great looking and well equipped cat anyone know where to find reviews

downunder
9th May 2011, 12:50 AM
Still no photos on dean's website only drawings.

Did you get any photos at the french boatshow??

peter.bomberg
9th May 2011, 08:11 PM
Many, let me see if I can upload a couple

downunder
9th May 2011, 11:10 PM
Stacks of room in hulls.

The hull shape above water in the first photo certainly need protection badly.

Any shots on engine, electrical installations.

Getting electrical right is one of most important aspects of a vessel.

paulrack
10th May 2011, 07:13 AM
I think there was something in one of the SA sailing magazines before the first one went to France. I will scan it in If I can find it.

Brightside2
12th May 2011, 10:31 AM
Hi
The Multihulls World magizine (also available as an On-Line PDF) is planning to run a boat test on the Dean 5000. Based in France they produce English versions. In fact this mag is an excellent source of 100's of Cat test.

http://WWW.multihulls-world.com (http://www.multihulls-world.com/)

Regards
Mike

downunder
12th May 2011, 11:27 AM
Thanks it hasn't made it to AUS yet, will be another month as only got last one recently.

Scarab
8th June 2011, 12:56 PM
Here you can watch a nice video on the new Dean 5000 :

http://site.overlapprodtv.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=17&Itemid=64

Greetz,

Koen

trgy
9th January 2012, 01:38 AM
it looks so beutiful.

downunder
9th January 2012, 09:12 AM
Looks fairly down on her lines. Not much /any antifowling showing !!

well finished off.

colemj
13th January 2012, 03:40 PM
Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder :eek:...

Mark

Tropic Cat
13th January 2012, 05:10 PM
There must be a Helm bimini option, right?

Katiusha
20th January 2012, 01:03 PM
There must be a Helm bimini option, right?

Yeah, there is. Previously they were talking about either "full bimini", i.e. that covers all sides, or "bimini" that covers top, back, and starboard side. Maybe now they just united it into "bimini". Very sturdy.

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
7th February 2012, 02:13 AM
Hi, I have spent several days with Peter Dean and his very professional team in the boat yard near Cape Town, as I have ordered a new D-5000, which will be launched in August 2012.
Please let me know if you have any questions regarding the new model, and she will be available for charter with us in the Caribbean from December.
Thanks!

downunder
7th February 2012, 05:20 AM
I note in the pictures on your website the bow of the Dean 5000 low in the water in good conditions with very little antifowling above waterline.



The first vessel looks overweight??

Do you have a link to your Leopard for sale with inventory and pricing ?

Ozmultis
7th February 2012, 08:38 AM
Interesting yes, beautiful, not so sure. What is it with these helm positions on boats these days perched up above the deck, making the boom higher above the water, that I dont get.

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
7th February 2012, 04:02 PM
Hi, I think it might be a bad angle for the photo as the boat is pretty high on the water (I don't know the proper English word for it, sorry). The bridge deck clearance is 1m (1000mm), and the saloon goes same level with the cockpit.

The idea of the raised helm is good visibility, you can see 360deg from the helm which has a sliding bimini top.

Currently I'm in New Zealand with my Leopard, and I can email you the inventory and photos if you are interested!

The price is $320k if you buy it from me directly, which is much higher than other Leopards on the market, but please note that I have just spent over $200k on refitting the boat, so she is in excellent condition!

victor
7th February 2012, 04:20 PM
Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder :eek:...

Mark
But how well does she perform under sail only?
It appears that she is very confy at a dock ,mooring and anchor, but out in the big blue???
It seems to me that the market is addressing primarily women and or men that want a boat so much that they are willing to give in to such comforts that were only available on cruise ships. The question is what are they giving up on the sailing bit?

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
7th February 2012, 04:52 PM
The truth is that I haven't sailed her yet, as there is only one hull in the water for the moment, and she is privately owned...

The boat is designed that you can easily sail her single handed, as all the halyards and sheets are led to the helm to electric winches, and there is a self tacking jib and a screacher (both on furlers).

I will sail her from South Africa to the Caribbean in October, so I will let you know...

downunder
8th February 2012, 02:21 AM
Surprised that you have ordered one without sailing it.

Are you aware of the issues with the Dean 441's.

Will certainly have plenty of room and comfort for up market charters in the Carabiean.

Cheers

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
8th February 2012, 02:54 AM
Yes, I know about the issues with the 441.
8 units of the 63 launched was built with a bulkhead glassed only from one side, and currently they are working on the repairs.
I spent a week in the boatyard, and both Peter and his team is very professional. They admit the mistake on those 8 units and took responsibility regarding the repairs.

paulrack
8th February 2012, 03:35 PM
Congratulations on your new acquisition, if you are in Cape Town for the launch it would be great to meet you and see your new baby:). I will look out for her in October. Will you be sailing her across to the Carribean?

Karen
8th February 2012, 04:08 PM
Yes, I know about the issues with the 441.
8 units of the 63 launched was built with a bulkhead glassed only from one side, and currently they are working on the repairs.
I spent a week in the boatyard, and both Peter and his team is very professional. They admit the mistake on those 8 units and took responsibility regarding the repairs.

According to Corinne and Luc who have both bought 441s and who both have posted here, Dean have not behaved honourably. Nor was it 8 boats affected but 18 if my memory serves me right.

But I sincerely wish you luck and hope your association with Peter Dean is a happier one.

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
8th February 2012, 06:14 PM
Our new vessel will be launched in August, but I hope to be in Cape Town around June already (depending on how fast I can sell my Leopard 42' in Australia).
Thanks for your invitation! I will happily show you our new boat once she is launched!

Regarding the problems with the D441, Peter Dean gave me the full documentation, including the surveys and all the email correspondence between him and the owners.

To me he seems a person I would happily do business with and I hope that we won't have similar problems as your friends with the 441s!

sigmasailor
8th February 2012, 10:32 PM
I'm surprised about the Dean website. I cannot find a mail address. Wanted to leave a comment that I do not wish to be bothered by some silly commercial when all I want to do is look at promotion videos. Strange....

paulrack
9th February 2012, 06:34 AM
I'm surprised about the Dean website. I cannot find a mail address. Wanted to leave a comment that I do not wish to be bothered by some silly commercial when all I want to do is look at promotion videos. Strange....

I looked at the site, the videos are under each model and if you click on the names of the people under contacts you can click on the persons name and send a mail to them.

sigmasailor
9th February 2012, 09:00 AM
Found it. Annoying commercials also seem to have been removed.
Mail direct under a contact button would be easy.

Katiusha
10th February 2012, 10:09 PM
According to Corinne and Luc who have both bought 441s and who both have posted here, Dean have not behaved honourably. Nor was it 8 boats affected but 18 if my memory serves me right.

But I sincerely wish you luck and hope your association with Peter Dean is a happier one.

My other half and I spent 3 days discussing this issue with Peter Dean and looking through various forums (both English and French) and, based on ALL information we got (not only from Luc and Corinne), we chose to trust Peter Dean more on this matter. It was an ugly issue between Dean Cats and Luc. Dean fixed the boats, but Luc doesn't want to let it go...

However, based on this issue, Dean Cats got completely recertified by CE (with a monumentous evaluation done) and (they claim) Dean Cats now even satisfy the new, more stringent, CE cert that might be coming into effect soon. It gives more confidence than some personal attacks...

Just my 2 cents... :t)

Karen
10th February 2012, 10:55 PM
Hi Katuisha -
So in effect are you saying that both Corinne and Luc are not telling the truth? Does Dean say he has in fact fixed their boats as well?

I have no absolute proof of who is right and who is wrong, but I think it is important that we hear both the customers' version of events and the boat builder's.

Katiusha
10th February 2012, 11:07 PM
Hi Karen,

I did not say that Luc and Corinne are not telling the truth. I did say that we preferred to believe Dean's version of the story more. As you know, when you ask any two people about the same event, there will be two different stories told. It doesn't mean that either of them lied. It was each person's "version of reality".
We liked the one that was confirmed by a recertification by a European certification body.

Dean Catamarans old website used to show 3 letters that they issued to their clients and fans. When we asked why they wouldn't post this information on forums and news websites, Peter Dean said that it's best Dean's information remains on Dean website. The new website doesn't have those letters, but I'll ask on Monday if it's possible to post it again somewhere. They do provide a small summary of it in their http://deancatamarans.com/files/en/newsletters/latest-newsletter.html:

"
Hard Facts Regarding D441

Dean Catamarans has traded for 31 years and as mentioned before, no production based business is without problems. In this regard we have and will always continue to stand by our product and ethos and when contractually or morally called upon to oblige our clients that have http://deancatamarans.com/files/images/newsletters/2011-11/sheets.pngwarranty related issues, we have and will honor all such claims based on merit. It is a sad fact that at a recent international boat show prospective clients returned to inform us that several of our competitors had resorted to maligning our product based on a quality issue that we have with a few of our D441 series. We acknowledge that we had an isolated problem on one of our bulkheads and this problem has been addressed. We have gone to great length and expense to remedy the error and indeed have renewed our CE certification, obtained approval by our certification authority and have a Repairs Procedure Manual approved. We appointed the services of unbiased industry related specialists including marine surveyors, naval architects and Design Engineers as well as composite experts to carry out stress calculations. A complete CE assessment was done and all the documentation forwarded to our certification authority. Our 2 – 3 day repair procedure will commence during the month of November 2011 and the D441 in question will be attended to."

sigmasailor
11th February 2012, 10:39 AM
However, based on this issue, Dean Cats got completely recertified by CE (with a monumentous evaluation done) and (they claim) Dean Cats now even satisfy the new, more stringent, CE cert that might be coming into effect soon.

More stringent CE certification? So what will be more stringent? As far as I know nothing has changed or will change any time soon with the RCD.
Looking at the RSG website the new (2012) guidelines still needs to be published, that can't be it than. These will show (if any) minor changes since the underlying RCD (2003 version) hasn't changed. The EU will work on implementing changes in all guidelines to embed the new (2010) requirement of accreditation to notify inspection bodies (NoBo's). That will take some years but should not change the requirements themselves.

Did Dean select other modules to demonstrate adherence to the RCD. The manufacturer has the option to go for module C (his own declaration confirming adherence to the type approval; 'the easy choice') or module F where the NoBo inspects an individual boat and declares it to conform to the originally approved design (module B). Or have they gone 'all the way' and deliver each boat with a module G certificate (here the NoBo verifies the design, inspects construction, verifies the TCD and carries out tests of the final product). Would be interesting to know which route Dean selected. Can't find that info on their site.

Eric

dmmbruce
11th February 2012, 11:34 AM
Katiusha post (no 30) refers to one boat being repaired. I read somewhere, on this thread I think, that there are 18 boats recognised by Dean as needing this bulkhead repair.

Are they going to repair all these?

Mike

Katiusha
11th February 2012, 11:39 AM
Regarding the proposed certification, apparently they were thinking of upgrading the requirements for off-shore catamarans (and came up with a new set of guidelines), but did not implement it. Just giving info second-hand, so not really sure.

Regarding recertification: it was either module B or G as Dean pretty much had to shut down all other business for 2.5 months and do a full inspection/revision/audits.
It would be interesting to know, I'll ask on Monday (together with those letters they issued).

sigmasailor
11th February 2012, 11:54 AM
Assuming catamarans of category A (Ocean) and between 12 and 24 meters and following the 'harmonized' ISO standards the manufacturer has the option the select on of the following modules or combination of modules:

B+C, B+D, B+E, B+F, G or H.

This is wat each module stands for:

B
EC‐Type
Examination
an EC type‐examination certificate for a represent ative
production sample which it has assessed in accorda nce
with the Essential Requirements. This module appli es
only to the design phase and must be followed up b y
the manufacturer applying a module providing for
assessment in the production phase.

C
Conformity to
Type
Covers the manufacturer’s declaration on the basis of
conformity to type, approved by the notified body
(Module B above)

D
Production
Quality Assurance
Supplements Module B. Derives from Quality
Assurance standard EN ISO 9002 with the notified b ody
responsible for approving and controlling the qual ity
system for production, final product inspection an d
testing set up by the manufacturer.

E
Product Quality
Assurance
Supplements Module B. Derives from Quality
Assurance standard EN ISO 9003 with the notified b ody
responsible for approving and controlling the qual ity
system for final product inspection and testing se t up by
the manufacturer.

F
Product
Verification
Supplements Module B. Covers product verification at
the production phase, with the involvement of a
notified body, which controls conformity to type a nd
issues the certificate of conformity.
G Unit Verification
Covers unit verification of the design and product ion
phase of each product controlled by a notified bod y,
which issues a certificate of conformity.

H
Full Quality
Assurance
Derives from the quality assurance standard EN ISO
9001 with the intervention of a notified body
responsible for approving and controlling the qual ity
system for design, production, final product inspe ction
and testing set up by the manufacturer.

Katiusha
29th February 2012, 10:41 AM
Sorry for a late reply. Peter Dean sent the info right away, but I went travelling (Miami boat show! :thumb), so just posting it now:

Looks like documents mention only module B and it wasn't a recertification, but a lift of certificate suspension.




Design Category: A as described in the Directive
Certification Module: B (EC type examination) as described in the Directive


signed by H.J. Bloemers, B.Eng, Senior Executive, European Certification Bureau Nederland B.V.

Previously another two statements were issued by this same person, H.J. Bloemers:




Dean Catamarans have had the structural issues investigated by the highly respected and
independent surveyor Mr. Brian Gowans. In the past Mr. Brian Gowans has cooperated with
ECB Nederland, and showed great knowledge and experience in all aspects of yacht building
and naval architecture.
Mr. Gowans was not employed by Dean Catamarans, but investigated on assignment of the
South African yacht building association. Because of Mr. Gowans’ knowledge and
independence we regard his investigation and conclusions beyond any doubt.
The conclusions were verified by a naval architect who recalculated the yacht type against
an applicable standard ISO 12215. This revealed no non-conformities in the construction
design of the type. After careful analysis of the building process the conclusion was drawn
an incorrect method of laminating the no.2 bulkhead into the hulls was the cause of the
deformation.
ECB has reviewed the survey reports, the construction design, the calculations by the naval
architect and the analysis of dr. Brian Gowans and supports the conclusions.
If there ever was a risk of permanent deformation of the construction, this will be corrected
with the repair procedure proposed by Dean Catamarans.
ECB Nederland reviewed the repair procedure and is of the opinion the repairs will be
effective.
Regarding new yachts built to this type, ECB Nederland reviewed the construction files and
revised building method, and certified the Dean 441 type of catamaran to the Recreational
Craft Directive as a consequence.




The type approval certificate, till the suspension date, carried the previous type designation Dean 440
as Dean Catamarans did not request revision of the type approval certificate with the new type
designation Dean 441 when it was brought on the market. This bears no effect on the validity of the
previously issued DoC’s. The difference between the type 440 and 441 is primarily cosmetic and no
significant changes in the design was assessed.
·
Boats that require repairs are offered by Dean Catamarans, and if deemed necessary by the owner, a
Post Construction Certificate (PCA) by ECB Nederland to re-instate confidence with the owners and
the market.

·
On 4-2-2011 owners of craft with damage were informed of the above and of the CE -status of their
craft.

·
On 28-1-2011 the certificate was re-issued with the correct type designation Dean 441 after the
causes of the complaints had been established and had been corrected in the production and
Technical Construction File of the type. It was found that the structural failure in the no 2 bulkhead
were caused by a production error in the installation of a section of this bulkhead. Also the weight of
some completed craft was greater than calculated due to owners choosing more and more optional
equipment. The designed and built hull structure was completely recalculated with the correct vessel
displacement, and was found to comply with construction requirements according ISO 12215-7. No
structural problems were detected elsewhere in the craft and ECB Nederland considers the correct
applied construction design to be strong and safe. ECB Nederland has furthermore done a complete
CE assessment on the craft to determine the Dean 441 does comply in all other areas with the
Recreational Craft Directive RCD as well. No further non-conformities to the vessel were found.

·
On 12-4-2011 Repair Procedure rev. 3 was approved by ECB Nederland. This is a generic repair
procedure and each craft will have to be assessed by the repair team for applicability of this
procedure.


Peter Dean said that in the next newsletter they will post an update on the repairs. As far as I heard from other sources, some people refused the repair, including Luc.

sigmasailor
29th February 2012, 10:58 AM
This, if correct, confirms that Dean demonstrated that the design of the prototype meets CE requirements. I assume it also demonstrates that the prototype itself meets all requirements although I do not read that explicitly; did ECB themselves see, test and inspect the prototype?

A type B certificate on its own does not say much (in fact nothing) about yachts being produced after the certification of the prototype. That is where modules C or F are for. Either the manufactured himself declares that the following yachts conform the the approved designs (module C for each individual yacht) or he asks a NoBo (may be the same but can also be another Nando listed NoBo) te carry out this verification. The latter will be more costly but looking at the money spent may be well worth it.

Eric

Katiusha
29th February 2012, 01:09 PM
Well, it also talks about production in the second quote above:



the
causes of the complaints had been established and had been corrected in the production and
Technical Construction File of the type



No
structural problems were detected elsewhere in the craft and ECB Nederland considers the correct
applied construction design to be strong and safe. ECB Nederland has furthermore done a complete
CE assessment on the craft to determine the Dean 441 does comply in all other areas with the
Recreational Craft Directive RCD as well. No further non-conformities to the vessel were found.


When we visited them, that guy just finished inspection of a newly built 441 as well.



Imho, if you want more detailed about certification/lift of suspension of certification, you could contact Dean Cats yourself. They don't bite and don't spit hairballs ;)

To us, a guarantee by Nederlands CE certification was worth more than someone who, based on his own posts, does not want to work with the boat builder to fix things. We don't require more info on this.
:t)

sigmasailor
29th February 2012, 01:20 PM
Imho, if you want more detailed about certification/lift of suspension of certification, you could contact Dean Cats yourself. They don't bite and don't spit hairballs

I have no business nor real (merely general) interest in Dean. All I'm trying to explain to the Forum is the (limited) value of module B and C EC certificates for production yachts. The NoBo's expert has no involvement with yachts produced after the initial type B approval.

If you want more assurance as a customer you should ask for module F or maybe even G and be willing to pay for that extra assurance.

Eric

Karen
29th February 2012, 03:03 PM
I have no business nor real (merely general) interest in Dean. All I'm trying to explain to the Forum is the (limited) value of module B and C EC certificates for production yachts. The NoBo's expert has no involvement with yachts produced after the initial type B approval.

If you want more assurance as a customer you should ask for module F or maybe even G and be willing to pay for that extra assurance.

Eric

I think your insight and knowledge on CE classification etc are very welcome, Eric. I hope folk who are considering buying a boat read your post and thereby gain a better understanding of the true value of its relevant CE certification.

I would still like straight forward answers from Dean regarding these questions:

* How many boats (441s) were actually affected? There have been references to 18, 8, and by inference in a statement by Dean posted earlier in this thread - just the one.

* Is it true, as has been claimed, I think by Corinne, that Dean do not have the finances to repair all the affected boats to a properly seaworthy state?

* If Luc's 441 catamaran has indeed been declared by two surveyors as beyond repair - and surely he must have the documentation to verify this claim -
then why do Dean say a proper repair is possible?

Lastly - and this isn't a question but a comment - I find Dean's remarks publicly blaming their competitors for using the 441 structure failure to dissuade customers from purchasing a Dean boat, amateur and unprofessional in the extreme. Trying to shift the blame is never a smart move if you want to re-establish your rather damaged reputation. Nor do I care for the smear tactics and public dissing aimed at Luc ... by all accounts a victim of a boatbuilder who had his eye off the ball big time.

Katiusha
11th March 2012, 11:57 AM
I think your insight and knowledge on CE classification etc are very welcome, Eric. I hope folk who are considering buying a boat read your post and thereby gain a better understanding of the true value of its relevant CE certification.

I would still like straight forward answers from Dean regarding these questions:

* How many boats (441s) were actually affected? There have been references to 18, 8, and by inference in a statement by Dean posted earlier in this thread - just the one.

* Is it true, as has been claimed, I think by Corinne, that Dean do not have the finances to repair all the affected boats to a properly seaworthy state?

* If Luc's 441 catamaran has indeed been declared by two surveyors as beyond repair - and surely he must have the documentation to verify this claim -
then why do Dean say a proper repair is possible?

Lastly - and this isn't a question but a comment - I find Dean's remarks publicly blaming their competitors for using the 441 structure failure to dissuade customers from purchasing a Dean boat, amateur and unprofessional in the extreme. Trying to shift the blame is never a smart move if you want to re-establish your rather damaged reputation. Nor do I care for the smear tactics and public dissing aimed at Luc ... by all accounts a victim of a boatbuilder who had his eye off the ball big time.


Hi Karen,

Did you email Dean Catamarans and ask these questions? If so, what was their reply?

Sincerely,
Katia

dozi
6th September 2012, 03:15 PM
I have heard that the Deans are being take over by another company. Does anyone have any info on who this new company is?

XTA-SEA CHARTERS
9th September 2012, 12:22 PM
Redemption Yachts was incorporated as a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) that has been used to acquire Dean Catamarans. Under new ownership and management, Dean Catamarans will be repositioned in our chosen global markets as Redemption Yachts with the Dean branding being changed to Dream branding.
Dean Catamarans has a 30 year track record and build luxury customized 44’, 50’ and 55’ sail and power catamarans. The new management team comprise Bernard Mondoulet, Dean’s European agent of 11 years standing, Garth Carstens, Dean’s Acting CEO over a period of 18 months and 60 staff members most of whom have been working at Dean Catamarans for over 20 years.
Redemption Yachts has a serious vision to grow the company and to this end have already appointed Tamas Hamor as agent for Canada, United States of America and the Caribbean. Redemption has strategic partners in South Africa, China, Korea, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand. We have capacity and know-how to build in GRP, Aluminum and have recently perfected infusion as an alternate light weight product for those who seek the thrill of a performance yacht.