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Thread: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

  1. #41
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    If you want to draw conclusions based on a single regatta, I can show you results that are very different.

    Key phrase in your question is "similar...equipped." This should include equally competant crew. In that case, no Lagoon or other LAR keel production cat will be as fast as a similar length Catana or other board boat. How much faster? Not a lot. On a triangular course, maybe 10%. Compare the ratings for a ballpark difference. Solely upwind, quite a bit more; soley downwind, not as much.

    2 Hulls Dave
    I have studied the results of the ARCs. The Catana & Outremer I've found made 200-240nm on the longer legs with a few exceptions. Lagoon & FP were slower ... <200nm range. But this is of cause not a statistically relevant analysis! All boats had different sizes.
    Last edited by JoFi; 25th October 2013 at 07:28 AM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoFi View Post
    I have studied the results of the ARCs. The Catana I've found made 200-240nm on the longer legs with a few exceptions. The Lagoons were significantly slower ... ~150-180nm range. But this is of cause not a statistically relevant analysis!

    Catana 522, 581,
    Outremer 55
    Lagoon 440, 421, 380
    FP 43, 46, 48
    Last edited by JoFi; 25th October 2013 at 07:32 AM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by smj View Post
    I may be wrong, but I would bet the Freydis 46 with keels would blow your doors!
    Quote Originally Posted by smj View Post
    And upon further consideration, our old Edel 43 was known for out sailing Catana 431's.
    Yep

    Catanas, particularly newer ones are somewhat over pumped. They aint as quick as the sales pitch

  4. #44
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post

    Key phrase in your question is "similar...equipped." This should include equally competant crew. In that case, no Lagoon or other LAR keel production cat will be as fast as a similar length Catana or other board boat. How much faster? Not a lot. On a triangular course, maybe 10%. Compare the ratings for a ballpark difference. Solely upwind, quite a bit more; soley downwind, not as much.

    2 Hulls Dave
    10% is OK with me, but I would'nt call that "another performance class".
    Usually Lagoons are slower (than the 10%), but that comes from the crew, sails etc. not the boat
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    This was the photo I intended to upload!
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    If you want to draw conclusions based on a single regatta, I can show you results that are very different.

    2 Hulls Dave
    More here
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #47
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by django View Post
    More here
    No info about nm/day correct?

  8. #48
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    No, just relative performance from the raceresults I could get hold of. Send me more, and I will include them!

  9. #49
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    hi,
    we crossed the atlantic this year, cabo verde to martinique in 20 days, max windspeed 12knots! friends of us did the same trip 2 weeks later and they made it in 15 days.they had the normal routine with night watch all the time which was not necessary in the conditions we had - the 1st squall was right at the entrance to ste.anne/martinique.

    i dont remember the 150nm days we had but i still smile when i see the pics when we had the sails down in the middle of the atlantic and swimming in flat water. that day we just made 32nm...

    we spent another three month in the caribbean sailing down to trinidad and i the max. distance between the islands was 80nm so no need for an ultrafast cruiser.

    if you plan to circumnavigate, how many days you are out on the ocean?
    150 - 200 i think, how many years are you planning for your trip?

    think about it and thats the answer
    buy a smaller boat and start in two years i.o. making more money now and starting later.
    1000 think of it
    100 are buying a boat
    10 start to circumnavigate
    1 arrives

    helmut

    PS - i am austrian so by nature i am not as fast as a german

  10. #50
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by onotoa View Post
    hi,


    PS - i am austrian so by nature i am not as fast as a german
    Definitely not true for down hill skiing

  11. #51
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by smj View Post
    I may be wrong, but I would bet the Freydis 46 with keels would blow your doors!
    Bring him on. If he was faster at all, it wouldn't be "blow your doors" faster.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by django View Post
    More here
    A good example on that spreadsheet. Look at HR12, the winning boat. Catana 471. Guess who that was? Fastest around all courses on both elapsed and corrected time.

    2 Hulls Dave
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    I have analyzed the 2008-2012 World ARC results a bit further (I allowed only legs >1,000nm / data for min. 3 multihulls available to compare)

    World ARC 2008 (2,980nm)
    Outremer 55: 197nm/day
    FP Belize 43: 157nm/day -20%
    FP Bahia 46: 150nm/day -24%
    Lagoon 380: 147nm/day -26%

    World ARC 2010 (4,160nm)
    Catan 581: 204nm/day
    Privilege 435: 175nm/day -14%
    Lagoon 440: 168nm/day -24%

    World ARC 2012 (5,800nm)
    Catana 522: 236nm/day
    St. Francis 43: 211nm/day -11%
    Lagoon 380 S2: 186nm/day -21%

    It looks like that on a world cruise it is possible to achieve >200nm/day with a fast boat and in best case you can come close to 250nm/day.

    -> My plan to achieve min. 250nm/day is too aggressive

    Jo

  14. #54
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    A good analysis, Jo.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoFi View Post
    It looks like that on a world cruise it is possible to achieve >200nm/day with a fast boat and in best case you can come close to 250nm/day.
    Yes, on the good days. Unless it's a very long boat, you will likely not avg >200/day over a long passage sailing only, unless you have some very sustained and favorable current. If you want to fly a chute overnight you'll do better, but most cruisers probably wouldn't do that unless the wind is forecast to be light, in which case you wouldn't be going very fast anyway.

    2 Hulls Dave

  15. #55
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    I agree with what others have said.
    I like Chris White cats most of all as cruiser racer, and Outremer are similar. But, I doubt they have the payload capability of other cruisers...
    I have done world cruising on a 44' catamaran. And lots of local cruising on a 58' cat.
    On the 44' cat - 8.3 knots was the magic number to achieve 200 mile days - easily doable. But, in 30,000 ocean miles happened rarely, due to conditions. Sometimes very light winds. Sometimes very high winds - and brakes are on. 5 knots was the average from Galapagos to Marquises (including a couple of sails-down sleepovers).
    My present vessel Catana 582 can easily manage 11-12 knots on a broad reach. Double-reefed, comfortable, smooth and safe. But rarely happens.
    10 knots average speed day after day is usually knot tenable. I budget for 9knots average.
    My philosophy is always - "get there cheap - get some sleep".
    All things being equal a bigger boat will get you your "desired" average. i reckon a 60' catamaran will make your numbers reasonably well - if kept light. They are available for $1,000,000, but require much more to fit-out, refit, and maintain...
    cheers

  16. #56
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by iXenophon View Post
    I agree with what others have said.
    I like Chris White cats most of all as cruiser racer, and Outremer are similar. But, I doubt they have the payload capability of other cruisers...
    I have done world cruising on a 44' catamaran. And lots of local cruising on a 58' cat.
    On the 44' cat - 8.3 knots was the magic number to achieve 200 mile days - easily doable. But, in 30,000 ocean miles happened rarely, due to conditions. Sometimes very light winds. Sometimes very high winds - and brakes are on. 5 knots was the average from Galapagos to Marquises (including a couple of sails-down sleepovers).
    My present vessel Catana 582 can easily manage 11-12 knots on a broad reach. Double-reefed, comfortable, smooth and safe. But rarely happens.
    10 knots average speed day after day is usually knot tenable. I budget for 9knots average.
    My philosophy is always - "get there cheap - get some sleep".
    All things being equal a bigger boat will get you your "desired" average. i reckon a 60' catamaran will make your numbers reasonably well - if kept light. They are available for $1,000,000, but require much more to fit-out, refit, and maintain...
    cheers
    iXenophon,
    Based on all you experience what boat would you buy for $1m if you want to cruise the world again for 2-3 years?
    Thx
    Jo

  17. #57
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmultis View Post
    Yep

    Catanas, particularly newer ones are somewhat over pumped. They aint as quick as the sales pitch
    What a typical type/tone of comment from a boat salesman and armchair critic. (some boat salesmen... anyways)

    Bob

  18. #58
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    Quote Originally Posted by JoFi View Post
    iXenophon,
    Based on all you experience what boat would you buy for $1m if you want to cruise the world again for 2-3 years?
    Thx
    Jo
    I reckon the one I own - 581 or 582.
    Is good compromise of speed/comfort/payload.
    And at 60' feet can comfortably achieve "desired" speeds in safety/comfort.
    582 is more opulent - if you need/can afford.
    Have plenty of cash in reserve!

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004...a#.Ump4gfmsjlU

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002...u#.Ump4AfmsjlU


    edit:
    cash in reserve comment applies to any vessel - multi/mono - new/old

  19. #59
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    JoFi
    The ARC speeds you quoted were probably taken from the group of boats that raced in the ARC and so are not really cruising but trying to win a race.
    I do not think those boats get the 250 Nm a day when cruising.

    I back the advise so far, it is rare too average greater than 200 Nm a day. When we did just the 200 Nm, we flew the gene night and day because we had enough crew tog take it down should the need arise.

    Now, we do have days of 250 even in our heavy boat but also days of 130 Nm when we have to motor…….. we always cruise for comfort and have a boat we can enjoy the other 90% plus of the time when we are at anchor.
    Safe Sailing
    Paul
    Blog: www.suliere.com

  20. #60
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    Default Re: World Cruising - fast but single-handed

    JoFi ...

    You've been given some excellent, very sound, very wise, very experienced advice by many of the members who've responded here - so no need for me to re-iterate it all.

    But one thing that only you and your good lady know is how does SHE feel about sailing at speed? If she is also a white-knuckle merchant, and thrills at the cut, bounce and slam of hulls slicing through wave at a rollicking lick, then you should enjoy pushing whatever boat you buy to its maximum. Your wallet won't love you, however, nor your boat - but providing you like replacing all the broken stuff, and spending time on the hard to patch it up again, all's good.

    But if, like a lot of Admirals, your better half has no taste for such vigorous sailing - and you say she's not interested in "technical sailing' - then you may find you're single-handing on a permanent basis!

    I know of very, very few women who enjoy bashing over water in a bid to squeeze every last knot out of the boat's performance, and have known many, many Admirals who have called time on their partners' cruising thrills because they simply don't share the love of sailing and living aboard full time. As for racing over the ocean wave day after day, well, many women would jump ship at the first opportunity.

    Cruising together, living aboard day after day, week after week, in a confined space, is a learning curve when you first start cruising - throw the stress, noise and discomfort of high-speed sailing into the brew and you are unlikely to "feel the love!" for very long!

    Karen


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