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Thread: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

  1. #1

    Default Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    So, Diving ahead with the boat purchase, Settled on the L400, 2010 model. (so the older fitout). Have few more 'modifications' questions for 400 openers.

    1. Boat comes without the Geneker option. Anyone know if this is difficult to retrofit, and what kind of cost might be looking at ?

    2. Is is possible to Fit a Genset after-market ? And again if so, any idea of cost or MAJOR problems in doing so ?
    Note: I'm going to try and get by with solar. Will be looking to fit approx 1500w of solar to it, but I suspect we will want to get the Genset anyway as backup / extra power as this will be running a 'home office on the hook' at times.

    3. Has anyone done any major modifications / refit to the Fwd V'berths ? like turned one into a workshop, or an office ? Just how much of the bunk can be removed without affecting anything structurally. In my naivety i'd assume a fair bit, given the owners version replaces it with a wide open bathroom, but still want to check..

    4. Where's a good spot to fit a Freezer.

    5. Where's a good spot to fit a washing machine. (yes I know, some are dead against this, but the Admiral wins out over naysayers


    Anything to watch out for or specific recommendations from other owners ?

    Regards

    Mark

  2. #2

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Not specific to the Lagoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    2. Is is possible to Fit a Genset after-market ? And again if so, any idea of cost or MAJOR problems in doing so ?
    Note: I'm going to try and get by with solar. Will be looking to fit approx 1500w of solar to it, but I suspect we will want to get the Genset anyway as backup / extra power as this will be running a 'home office on the hook' at times.
    Go with a small portable gasoline unit. I would rather die quietly in bed rather than adjudicating between the generator mechanic and the generator electrician. With good solar and careful choice of appliances you will only need to run a portable very occasionally anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    4. Where's a good spot to fit a Freezer.
    Don't know where but make sure you use proper fridge foam and lots and lots of it. Ours has 8 inches on the sides and 14 inches in the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    5. Where's a good spot to fit a washing machine. (yes I know, some are dead against this, but the Admiral wins out over naysayers
    The Admiral is right. If you live aboard a washing machine is important. A front loaded uses less water and is more efficient. Consider a Daewoo Mini Wall mounted front loader. Small light and installable on virtually any vertical surface.

    Peter

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Hi Mark - a couple of your questions are not specific to a Lagoon 400 nor to Lagoons in general, so I'll offer some opinions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    1. Boat comes without the Geneker option. Anyone know if this is difficult to retrofit, and what kind of cost might be looking at ?
    These type mods are very likely cheaper than the Lagoon option (or from any builder) and you'll have WAY more choices. Enlist a sailmaker of your choice and describe what you want. Then ask another based on what you got from the first one. Repeat as necessary. Don't limit yourself to a "geneker", but consider all the off-the-wind sail choices.

    2. Is is possible to Fit a Genset after-market ? And again if so, any idea of cost or MAJOR problems in doing so ?
    Note: I'm going to try and get by with solar. Will be looking to fit approx 1500w of solar to it, but I suspect we will want to get the Genset anyway as backup / extra power as this will be running a 'home office on the hook' at times.
    Again, not a model-specific question. Of course it's doable to retro-fit a genset, but I'm with Peter on this one. Why do you think you'll need a gen set? What will you be running in that office? In my view, the only reason to have a gen set (with your planned amount of solar) is because you want air conditioning. This "want" can be driven by your intended cruising location(s), but you won't need it in the tropics as long as you stay away from marinas. You didn't mention a water maker, but having a genset allows you to choose an AC water maker, but I recommend a DC unit - because you don't need a gen set.

    5. Where's a good spot to fit a washing machine. (yes I know, some are dead against this, but the Admiral wins out over naysayers
    I'll disagree with Peter here. If you come take it off my boat I'll give you my Splendide washer/dryer. We've used it only a few times and the dryer function is worthless. The best use we've gotten out of it is as a Faraday box. It does only a marginal job at washing a very small load of clothes while consuming a lot of AC power (via inverter), water, and engine run time to heat water. Then you still have to hang your clothes on the lifelines to dry. You're better off foregoing this extra weight and storage space and doing your laundry ashore in a laundromat or in a big tub on deck with a paddle. The only time we've used ours is when we have to motor someplace and suffer from misdemeanor laziness....

    Good luck,
    Dave

  4. #4

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Thanks guys,

    1. I use the term Geneker as a generic for 'really big light air sail at the front' . I was splitting it into 2 parts. 1. The bowsprit and related bits, and 2. the sail itself. As long as its easy to retrofit this, then I'm fine. (note, it looks dead simple, I just wanted to check).

    The Parasailor looks pretty nice as a light air sail, but i'm not nearly experienced enough to comment for sure and need to do more research.

    2. I need to be able to regularly (several times a week) run a MacPro PC (The trashcan), and 2x 30" monitors + SSD drive array for 4-5 hours at a time to do my business from anywhere. If I can get away with that on Solar, fine, but may not be able to. (And possibly not away from the Tropics). I Plan to go with Solar at first, and only go the Genset if it is needed for sure. Really just wanted to make sure there wasn't some unknown strange reason this was not retrofittable on an L400 in its spot in the aft locker. (I can't think of a reason).

    3. Washer = not optional. Keeping the Admiral happy >>>>> other options. The only things she 'demanded' was a Washer (NOT dryer), a decent kitchen with Fridge, Microwave, AND good Freezer space and a decent Watermaker. We've done a lot of camping and outback 4wd'ing, so I'm happy to accede to those wishes as not being fickle Will go for a 6-7kg something when we work out where it will fit.

    Agree with the 12v DC Watermaker. Want to minimise the 110/240v appliances.

    I'd love to avoid a Genset and happy to go to-town on Solar, and even Lithium house batteries or upgraded Alternator to avoid it, but I strongly suspect I won't be able to so at least want the option to add later.

    There are only so many solar panels you can physical fit on a boat that are usefull, and not going to come off in the first gale.

    I think I can fit 5 x the new KD300 Kyocera's or similar across the back on a frame, (Someone has already done this with 275's I think) and maybe 1-2 more on the Stbd roof (but not sure).

    As per another post, I was also considering one of the vertical vane, mast mounted, wind-gen's, Still need to look into that.

    Frankly I'd rather use the Genset Locker as an additional propane locker (proper vented). (On the L400 it is in the cockpit)


    Adding a new question.

    #6. I assume changing a pump toilet, for an electric one, isn't rocket science ? (money yes, hard, no). Please advise.

    Regards

    Mark

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    One thing about portables that I don't like.

    Genset runs on Diesel

    Portables generally run on Petrol (Is there a portable diesel ?).

    I hate Petrol, and only want to carry enough for the Dinghy outboard (and wish I could get Diesel one of those too !). So not keen on a Petrol portable gen.

    Regards

    Mark.

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    1. I use the term Geneker as a generic for 'really big light air sail at the front' . I was splitting it into 2 parts. 1. The bowsprit and related bits, and 2. the sail itself. As long as its easy to retrofit this, then I'm fine. (note, it looks dead simple, I just wanted to check).

    The Parasailor looks pretty nice as a light air sail, but i'm not nearly experienced enough to comment for sure and need to do more research.
    Aside from not having a sprit, what hardware do you have? Do you have the bow deck blocks and aft turning blocks for sheets and guys? You need the aft turning blocks for sheets for any large headsail you choose. You need the bow deck blocks only for a symmetrical spinnaker or if you want to rig an asymmetrical spi as a sym spi. If you have the bow deck blocks already, you have the option of forgetting the sprit and choosing a sym spi. In my view, a sym spi is the best all-around downwind sail for a cat and is butt simple to use. It can be rotated around to leeward to allow you to sail almost as high as an asym spi. If you don't have the bow blocks already you may be better off to go with the sprit and an asym spi and also possibly a reacher/geneker/Code 0 - but these two type sails (asym spi and reacher) will be redundant over much of the useful wind angles.

    As for the parasailor, I am a skeptic of these gizmos and consider them to be a gimmick for a cat. I have asked multiple times on multiple forums for anyone with experience with BOTH a traditional spi and a parasailor to explain the benefit of the much more expensive parasailor, and no one replies other than simply repeating what the parasailor people claim. I will likely need to replace my sym spis eventually and I'd really like to learn what the parasailor benefit is. Is it worth the money?

    Dave

  7. #7

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    One thing about portables that I don't like.

    Genset runs on Diesel

    Portables generally run on Petrol (Is there a portable diesel ?).

    I hate Petrol, and only want to carry enough for the Dinghy outboard (and wish I could get Diesel one of those too !). So not keen on a Petrol portable gen.

    Regards

    Mark.
    Propane is as, or more dangerous than petrol.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Me Germany / Boat Spain
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    324

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    1. Boat comes without the Geneker option. Anyone know if this is difficult to retrofit, and what kind of cost might be looking at ?

    2. Is is possible to Fit a Genset after-market ? And again if so, any idea of cost or MAJOR problems in doing so ?
    Note: I'm going to try and get by with solar. Will be looking to fit approx 1500w of solar to it, but I suspect we will want to get the Genset anyway as backup / extra power as this will be running a 'home office on the hook' at times.

    3. Has anyone done any major modifications / refit to the Fwd V'berths ? like turned one into a workshop, or an office ? Just how much of the bunk can be removed without affecting anything structurally. In my naivety i'd assume a fair bit, given the owners version replaces it with a wide open bathroom, but still want to check..

    4. Where's a good spot to fit a Freezer.

    5. Where's a good spot to fit a washing machine. (yes I know, some are dead against this, but the Admiral wins out over naysayers

    6. I assume changing a pump toilet, for an electric one, isn't rocket science ? (money yes, hard, no). Please advise.
    I don't own a 400 but looked closely at some, so maybe I'm not talking crap:

    1. no problem, just some $. Add a bowsprit for a few hundret bucks, buy a gennaker or asym spinnacker and off you go. Or just fly an asym spi from a bridle between the hulls, see at the end of this video
    Also worth looking at dual genoa setup as seen in this video . Not as efficient as a spi but very easy to reef in a blow, simple and cheap. We used a similar setup for most of our crossings.

    2. Why not? Even the original one can be removed. But this is serious money, expect something between 10k und 20k USD. Unless you need a ton of fresh water you should be good with your huge solar array and some optimized alternator regulators. If you can really fit 1.5kw Solar than chances are high the engines will run maybe an hour or so for charging per week.

    3. Haven't seen any modifications, but doesn't look to complicated. You can easily identify structural bulkheads (relatively thick and glassed in place) from furniture bulkheads (thin and glued on). As far as I know there are no structural bulkheads in that area.

    4. Where its supposed to be in the original setup (fridge and freezer side by side under the worktop in the "old" 400, or one under the worktop and one on the port side in the S2). The 400 has an optional cockpit fridge, maybe you can use that space for a small freezer instead

    5. Check one of these, should fit into a locker with minimal woodwork

    6. The easiest is to use the electric conversion kits for Jabsco toilets as just replace the manual pump. But they are loud! Pure elctric toilets may need longer hoses depending on the model.
    However I wold not do that. I had electric toilets, electric conversions and manuals. I'd go for the manual pumps: very few problems, easy to maintain, parts available around the world

  9. #9

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Thanks guys, awesome feedback here as always !. (and best of all, none of the CF negativity )


    So. Propane. I agree it is dangerous, but it is also MUCH easier to control, and already a clean solution for it onboard. I have to have it, there is no alternative. I'd love to drop having to carry Petrol, thought doubt it. Either way, for a Genset, carrying bulk diesel is easier, safety wise, than bulk Petrol. (And already have some 100 gal of it on board anyway).

    When I fit Heating (yes, this is something we DO need), it will probably by a drip diesel system such as , so that won't use Propane (thank god !)

    That said, I'm going to try and get away with Solar (maybe with some wind also) only, and see how we go. (For reference. I'm an Ex Navy Electronics / Electrical Tech, so Solar and associated battery systems don't worry me at all, other than finding the best panels and properly mounting them).

    I haven't actually yet run a load spreadsheet to work this put properly, but I will when we get the boat, and I can put meters on things to understand consumption.


    Rabbi: Thanks for the answers.
    1. Cool. Thought so. Which to run with, no idea yet, need to evaluate that when looking at the sail plan. Just the boat we are offering on, didn't have the Bowsprit.
    2. I was guessing 20k, and a chunk of weight. As above, will see if we can do without. Worst case might be upping the Engine Alternators in size as a better plan.
    3. Thanks. Will take a closer look at the time.
    4. We own a pair of 60ltr Engels from the 4WD days. Love that thing. Might just run with whats already onboard, and use one of these mounted elsewhere as overflow.
    5. Thanks. Actually thinking of putting that in the Cockpit locker like someone else with a 400 has done (forget the blog, but i've seen it)
    6. Admiral was desiring one in the master head. I'll only do one of them so the other pump one is a backup. IF there is a conversion kit, bonus, that will prob do for a start. (And keep the pump for when it fails !)

    As always, appreciate the comments.

    Regards

    Mark

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    Aside from not having a sprit, what hardware do you have? Do you have the bow deck blocks and aft turning blocks for sheets and guys? You need the aft turning blocks for sheets for any large headsail you choose. You need the bow deck blocks only for a symmetrical spinnaker or if you want to rig an asymmetrical spi as a sym spi. If you have the bow deck blocks already, you have the option of forgetting the sprit and choosing a sym spi. In my view, a sym spi is the best all-around downwind sail for a cat and is butt simple to use. It can be rotated around to leeward to allow you to sail almost as high as an asym spi. If you don't have the bow blocks already you may be better off to go with the sprit and an asym spi and also possibly a reacher/geneker/Code 0 - but these two type sails (asym spi and reacher) will be redundant over much of the useful wind angles.

    As for the parasailor, I am a skeptic of these gizmos and consider them to be a gimmick for a cat. I have asked multiple times on multiple forums for anyone with experience with BOTH a traditional spi and a parasailor to explain the benefit of the much more expensive parasailor, and no one replies other than simply repeating what the parasailor people claim. I will likely need to replace my sym spis eventually and I'd really like to learn what the parasailor benefit is. Is it worth the money?

    Dave
    Note 100%, don't have the boat yet. But the one we are looking at, doesn't have the bowsprit fitted, so I'd have to assume none of the other stuff.
    I've no problem fitting what has to be done, and pretty much assuming anything is possible, given enough time / money.

    Regards

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    One additional point, so folks know where we are coming from.

    As many things are colored by 'intended use' ours is this: Couple + our Cat (no kids), live aboard for a few years across 2 oceans, trade-winds route, with potential for circumnavigation and some 'mid' (cold) latitude (Coastal Norway, South tip NewZealand) trips if things pan out down the road. On board work computers/printers as mentioned earlier is required.

    After extensive research and looking, we've settled on the Lagoon 400, for a bunch of reasons.
    We are still tossing up a couple of versions, Either the 4 Berth / 2 Bath Model (the one under serious consideration which relates to this post), or the 3 Bert, 2 Bath Owners version.

    Crazy as it might sound, the misuses actually prefers the 4 berth / 2 bath model as we think it will be better for creating the fwd Office / workshop and extra storage. (note, not at all interested in 4 berth, 4 bath !. I at least want a real shower, and who wants 4 heads to maintain !!)

    No idea if we are considered crazy for not preferring the Owners version, but hey, there you have it.


    Regards Mark

  12. #12
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    One additional point, so folks know where we are coming from.

    As many things are colored by 'intended use' ours is this: Couple + our Cat (no kids), live aboard for a few years across 2 oceans, trade-winds route, with potential for circumnavigation and some 'mid' (cold) latitude (Coastal Norway, South tip NewZealand) trips if things pan out down the road. On board work computers/printers as mentioned earlier is required.

    After extensive research and looking, we've settled on the Lagoon 400, for a bunch of reasons.
    We are still tossing up a couple of versions, Either the 4 Berth / 2 Bath Model (the one under serious consideration which relates to this post), or the 3 Bert, 2 Bath Owners version.

    Crazy as it might sound, the misuses actually prefers the 4 berth / 2 bath model as we think it will be better for creating the fwd Office / workshop and extra storage. (note, not at all interested in 4 berth, 4 bath !. I at least want a real shower, and who wants 4 heads to maintain !!)

    No idea if we are considered crazy for not preferring the Owners version, but hey, there you have it.


    Regards Mark
    all things equal I'd prefer the 4/2 version over the owners version, too. only bonus in the owners version is the resale value but that helps only the first owner.

    what exactly do you plan to work? industrial design work?
    anything that requires more than just plain text emails will be very expensive when offshore or at very remote island. local wifi or 3g/4g is often cheap but Sat internet is not.

  13. #13
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    Oct 2008
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    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Hi again, Mark - back on the headsail hardware -

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    But the one we are looking at, doesn't have the bowsprit fitted, so I'd have to assume none of the other stuff.
    Probably not a good assumption. The sprit is only needed for an asym spi or genneker/reacher/Code 0. Boats could have been originally fitted out for a sym spi only - with the attendant bow blocks for the guys and aft blocks for the sheets - and not have a sprit. My boat was like this. I added a sprit and reacher/Code 0 to fill out my sail inventory for light air reaching. Alternatively, a boat could have originally been fitted out for an asym spi and/or reacher/genneker/Code 0 with a sprit, but not have the bow blocks for the guys for a sym spi. Either way, I think it's usually the case that attachment points for aft turning blocks are present from initial build on production boats. These are needed for whatever large headsail you choose.

    Dave

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    Hi again, Mark - back on the headsail hardware -

    Probably not a good assumption. The sprit is only needed for an asym spi or genneker/reacher/Code 0. Boats could have been originally fitted out for a sym spi only - with the attendant bow blocks for the guys and aft blocks for the sheets - and not have a sprit. My boat was like this. I added a sprit and reacher/Code 0 to fill out my sail inventory for light air reaching. Alternatively, a boat could have originally been fitted out for an asym spi and/or reacher/genneker/Code 0 with a sprit, but not have the bow blocks for the guys for a sym spi. Either way, I think it's usually the case that attachment points for aft turning blocks are present from initial build on production boats. These are needed for whatever large headsail you choose.

    Dave
    Fair enough. I know the rear/stbd Winch, and 1 turning block on the toe-rail is already there for the Large Headsail, (from the photos) so its possible the other blocks are there also. Will take a look when we inspect.

    As for WHICH Large headsail to go with, not a damn clue. (And quite possibly need 2 different ones). Been a long long time since I used a Spinnaker of any kind, so that needs research later.

    Thanks for the comments.

    Regards

    Mark.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    One thing about portables that I don't like.

    Genset runs on Diesel

    Portables generally run on Petrol (Is there a portable diesel ?).

    I hate Petrol, and only want to carry enough for the Dinghy outboard (and wish I could get Diesel one of those too !). So not keen on a Petrol portable gen.

    Regards

    Mark.
    You can buy portable diesel gensets. Much heavier and noisier than petrol ones though.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    So. Propane. I agree it is dangerous, but it is also MUCH easier to control, and already a clean solution for it onboard.
    How on earth do you figure propane is easier to control than petrol? Propane is stored under considerable pressure. It can explode without even needing to be ignited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilin...apor_explosion

    A slow leak could asphyxiate you.

    I'm amazed how many people seem terrified of petrol, while millions of cars and boats run on it every day with (proportionally) very few incidents.

    Anyway, you can buy diesel gensets, diesel outboards, and even a diesel stove. That way you only have to carry diesel.

    Obviously there are downsides. Diesel gensets are heavy noisy, and more expensive as are diesel outboards. And diesel stoves stink.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 44C View Post
    And diesel stoves stink.
    I agree with all your points except the last. I have a kerosene stove by Wallas it is vented externally, lights electronically and does not smell. Wallas also make diesel stoves that also don't smell. A lot safer than propane but I have to agree they are expensive.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Petrol is fine when stored in Fuel Tanks properly designed for the Purpose,
    Pretty much same for Propane. Proper container, in good condition, contained in a correct locker, vented, etc etc. It is plumed in with certified (and inspected if your smart) piping to the appliance that uses it, with safeties. It is heavier than air, so drains outboard nicely from its properly drained locker.

    And really, we don't carry THAT much of it around.

    I agree it is dangerous, but it is easy to control with some sense and proper fitout.


    Petrol on the other hand. Yachts don't come with a tank for Petrol like a car, with all its certifications and baffling.
    We regularly man handle it around to feed the outboard. We need to carry a lot of it often (for same outboard). It is stored in travel containers that are regularly left on deck, or (very badly), put in lockers that are NOT designed to contain flammable liquids. Any leak creates a vapor which is lighter than air and highly flammable. If tossed in a fwd locker, it is instant dangerous situation waiting to happen.

    I've carried propane and petrol around by 4WD and Motor home all over the place. I'm far more concerned about the SPARE Petrolink (that not in the fuel tank) with no proper home, than I am about the Propane in its pressure vessel, in its Bracket and drained locker.

    Just my 2cp.

    Regards

    Mark.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Commercially bought jerry cans are certified and designed for carrying petrol. I use the plastic ones, because steel will rust. (Which can be an issue with steel propane tanks too.)

    Properly filled - not overfilled - they are as safe as the fuel tank on the outboard. (in fact probably safer, because most people leave the vent on the OB tank open.)

    Petrol vapour is heavier than air, BTW. It would arguably be safer if it was lighter than air, because it wouldn't pool in the bottom of inboard powered boats, car boots etc.

    The same vented, drained locker that is appropriate for propane storage will be OK for storing petrol in approved jerry cans too.
    Last edited by 44C; 1st April 2016 at 05:53 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I agree with all your points except the last. I have a kerosene stove by Wallas it is vented externally, lights electronically and does not smell. Wallas also make diesel stoves that also don't smell. A lot safer than propane but I have to agree they are expensive.
    Well of course if a stove is vented externally, the smell will go outside.
    Last edited by 44C; 1st April 2016 at 05:44 AM.

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