Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 52

Thread: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    It's worth considering the most likely failure scenario for fuels.

    With petrol, the most likely problem will be a spill when transferring it from a jerry can to a fuel tank. As long as you're not insane, and smoking or operating something with a source of ignition, this should be a minor inconvenience. Simply wash the spill overboard with a water/detergent mix.

    Pretty similar for diesel too, but considerably more difficult to ignite.

    With propane, the most likely failure would be the flexible hose from the propane tank to the solenoid cut-off valve. If this hose lets go, the tank will empty itself at high pressure into the locker. It will vent from the locker under high pressure too, forming a huge vapour cloud of highly flammable gas. As this cloud dissipates, and mixes with air, it will change from a highly flammable cloud to a highly explosive cloud. A 9kg propane bottle contains enough energy to pretty much level a city block, if it were mixed optimally with air. (Which thankfully, is unlikely)

    I wouldn't worry too much about a couple of jerrycans of petrol.... be careful with it, for sure, but don't lose sleep over it.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Lots of others have commented, so I'll just add some thoughts..

    1500w of solar is a lot and unless you're using that much power everyday you need to think about storage too. I guess you'll probably see upwards of 500ah from from that setup. Is there enough room on a 400 to fit that number of cells?

    We have a diesel genset and whilst I'd probably go with something different next time, it wasn't high enough on the list of things to change I don't like the idea of relying on a petrol suitcase generator - mainly 'cos of the anti-social bastards that use them (like the guy who came and anchored in a tight spot ahead of us, then ran the thing from 6am in the morning with the fumes blowing down into our cabin *sigh*). We use our genset weekly to do laundry (we have a washing machine, we agree with you on that!).

    There are lots of solutions for washing machines from twin-tub type affairs, to a front loader. We can fit a standard domestic 'slimline' (ie. 44cm deep) washer into our forward 'workshop', so thats what we did. Privilege had left plumbing there, so we just needed to do cabinetry. It uses 50-60 litres per wash - and we can make more than it uses with the watermaker whilst the washer is running.

    On the downwind sail front, we have a gennaker and Parasailor - and we mostly use the Parasailor. Our gennaker does not have a UV strip so it lives in a locker. If we're going downwind for some days - its simpler to use the parasailor. I do occasionally wish we had the gennaker permanently set so we could use it on short hops. Happy enough to launch it solo, but really needs two up to dowse it. We find it very stable and easy to manage, such that my wife is happy with it up on her watch overnight. Longest we've flown it continously is a shade over 3 days (and that was just the two of us onboard). Can't say I've compared it to a spinnaker on this particular boat but I doubt my wife would be as happy under spinnaker overnight... Maybe that says more about my skills with a spinnaker, but I've certainly found I needed to be more attentive with those than with the parasailor. We're lazy cruisers

  3. #23

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Lots of others have commented, so I'll just add some thoughts..

    1500w of solar is a lot and unless you're using that much power everyday you need to think about storage too. I guess you'll probably see upwards of 500ah from from that setup. Is there enough room on a 400 to fit that number of cells?
    Fit yes, weight is of course an issue. From memory the rule of thumb is can charge 25ah per 100w of solar in an avg day? (something like that, I'd need to go look).
    I'm looking to see if Lithium is viable yet or not (expensive as hell, but is it viable and safe). IF so, than can do the storage easily.

    I agree with all the comments that avoiding a generator is a good plan, So am looking at the large solar / storage as a place to start. It would be really nice to have enough to not have to run the engine alternator at all. And enough to run the washer / microwave etc. The origional question was aimed at buying a boat without a Genset, then fitting it ONLY if it were needed.

    One of my considerations also, is we may very well be travelling at times / places where Sun might not stick its head out for days at a time. So ONLY solar isn't viable. Needs a backup (like anything else).
    Though hoping for a reasonable wind backup solution like the vertical one I linked a few months back.


    Apart from running the boat systems, all of our hobbies pretty much, require Power. (i'm a geek, yes !, which is power). My wife is heavily into Sewing (more power). Camera systems require charging, computers require it (more power !), and the small electric outboard for the Dinghy / Kayak we have requires charging (power !), Microwave/Mixer/Toaster/Sandwich Maker (yup, more power !).

    So one of our key requirements is lots of electrical power availability. Not enough to run A/C, we're not that crazy !, but enough to comfortably power everything that we want.

    I fully realise some of those gadgets are not everyone's cup of tea, and many will say 'you don't need this, or you don't NEED that'. And I agree for many things. But these are the things we want, that are part of the way we enjoy life. And part of cruising is doing just that, enjoying it !.

    So sorting a decent power regime for the boat, is one of my key projects before setting off. And yes, I'd LOVE to do it without a Genset !.

    There are lots of solutions for washing machines from twin-tub type affairs, to a front loader. We can fit a standard domestic 'slimline' (ie. 44cm deep) washer into our forward 'workshop', so thats what we did. Privilege had left plumbing there, so we just needed to do cabinetry. It uses 50-60 litres per wash - and we can make more than it uses with the watermaker whilst the washer is running.


    Washing machine is mandatory. If I can run it off the solar / large house bank, bonus. (And the associated Watermaker).

    Any recommendations on Watermaker ? I was thinking one of the Large Spectra's. One that can do 50-100L in an hour. But that hasn't been properly researched at ALL yet.


    Thanks for the tips on downwind sails. We're also expecting to be lazy cruisers in that regard. Because 'lazy' also equals 'safer' potentially. Of course with the caveat, that 'clever things' tend to break at the most inconvenient time. But more importantly I need it to be as simple for my wife to operate as possible.


    Thanks for the comments.

    Regards

    Mark.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    Fit yes, weight is of course an issue. From memory the rule of thumb is can charge 25ah per 100w of solar in an avg day? (something like that, I'd need to go look).
    I'm looking to see if Lithium is viable yet or not (expensive as hell, but is it viable and safe). IF so, than can do the storage easily.
    Calder suggests Watts/3 to give average amp-hours/day and for the tropics (where we are currently) that seems about right. We have 400w of solar and usually see 130ah/day. On a good day its up as much as 150ah. We added a D400 wind generator once we got here - the shorter days caught us out. The D400 is very good, we only get vibrations from it when the charge controller is dumping power - and thats a nice position to be in

    One of my considerations also, is we may very well be travelling at times / places where Sun might not stick its head out for days at a time. So ONLY solar isn't viable. Needs a backup (like anything else).
    Though hoping for a reasonable wind backup solution like the vertical one I linked a few months back.
    I thought the vertical ones generally weren't as efficient?

    We do have a lithium battery setup which we're also very pleased with. We find that we can't quite keep up with the power needed when we have the freezer on, but that may change once we've rejigged our refrigeration setup - I can report back on if you're interested. We're waiting to see how that goes before deciding on adding more solar or not. We have a material bimini which makes adding solar a bit harder given we've already used the space above the davits.

    Apart from running the boat systems, all of our hobbies pretty much, require Power. (i'm a geek, yes !, which is power). My wife is heavily into Sewing (more power). Camera systems require charging, computers require it (more power !), and the small electric outboard for the Dinghy / Kayak we have requires charging (power !), Microwave/Mixer/Toaster/Sandwich Maker (yup, more power !).
    Yup - geek here too (in fact, in the process of another startup which means lots of power for laptop). I'd dump the electric outboard though. If you're cruising long term, you'll want more power in the dinghy!

    I fully realise some of those gadgets are not everyone's cup of tea, and many will say 'you don't need this, or you don't NEED that'. And I agree for many things. But these are the things we want, that are part of the way we enjoy life. And part of cruising is doing just that, enjoying it !.
    Indeed - meeting your own personal comforts is essential, otherwise you'll find the cruising curtailed. I'm not of the 'hair shirt' cruising club!

    [COLOR=#333333]Any recommendations on Watermaker ? I was thinking one of the Large Spectra's. One that can do 50-100L in an hour. But that hasn't been properly researched at ALL yet.
    We're happy with the Dessalator D100. Its not the most power efficient out there, but then we can run it on brackish water when up the rivers in Guyana where others couldn't. Spectra are very popular, but for me the efficiency gain of the pump isn't worth the additional fragility. (Just personal view, before all the Spectra lovers jump me...)

    Feel free to PM me or ask away on here

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    On the downwind sail front, we have a gennaker and Parasailor - and we mostly use the Parasailor. Our gennaker does not have a UV strip so it lives in a locker. If we're going downwind for some days - its simpler to use the parasailor. I do occasionally wish we had the gennaker permanently set so we could use it on short hops. Happy enough to launch it solo, but really needs two up to dowse it. We find it very stable and easy to manage, such that my wife is happy with it up on her watch overnight. Longest we've flown it continously is a shade over 3 days (and that was just the two of us onboard). Can't say I've compared it to a spinnaker on this particular boat but I doubt my wife would be as happy under spinnaker overnight... Maybe that says more about my skills with a spinnaker, but I've certainly found I needed to be more attentive with those than with the parasailor. We're lazy cruisers
    rickp - help me understand. What about a parasailor makes it easier than a spinnaker? A parasailor IS a spinnaker - just a more expensive and complicated one. As I describe further up this topic, I will eventually need to replace a symmetrical spinnaker and I want to learn why I should spend way more money for a parasailor when a traditional sym spi works so well on a cat (no pole needed) and is so easy to use?

    Dave

  6. #26

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    rickp - help me understand. What about a parasailor makes it easier than a spinnaker? A parasailor IS a spinnaker - just a more expensive and complicated one. As I describe further up this topic, I will eventually need to replace a symmetrical spinnaker and I want to learn why I should spend way more money for a parasailor when a traditional sym spi works so well on a cat (no pole needed) and is so easy to use?

    Dave
    Why do you claim a parasailor is more complicated? More expensive, yes (though mine was second hand).
    [Edit: maybe you mean in terms of manufacture - but thats part of the price - I was thinking in terms of flying it - where I don't think its more complicated at all].

    I find the parasailor is much more tolerant to both gusts and lulls. It collapses very progressively and is easy to deal with. In fact my usual brief to crew who haven't sailed much before was 'if you see this edge collapsing, steer up a bit on the autopilot. Opposite edge, steer the other way'. Thats all that was needed and people who haven't flown spinnakers in their life were happy on watch. We've flown it from 5 knots to 25knots without issue.

    That was not my experience with spinnakers on other boats.

    Anyway - you're reasonably convinced you don't need one, and I'm not going to change your mind. You can safely save your money and buy a regular spini...
    Last edited by rickp; 3rd April 2016 at 05:26 PM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    I agree with all the comments that avoiding a generator is a good plan, So am looking at the large solar / storage as a place to start. It would be really nice to have enough to not have to run the engine alternator at all. And enough to run the washer / microwave etc. The origional question was aimed at buying a boat without a Genset, then fitting it ONLY if it were needed.

    One of my considerations also, is we may very well be travelling at times / places where Sun might not stick its head out for days at a time. So ONLY solar isn't viable. Needs a backup (like anything else).
    Mark - have you considered solar + a larger or second alternator on each engine? The only times solar doesn't cover our needs 100% is during multi-day passages. No sun at night and you have the extra loads of auto-pilot, nav stuff, etc. So we typically have to run an engine a while each passage day to make up the difference. But we also typically have to motor some anyway, so the times when we have to run an engine just to charge batts is pretty rare. But when we do, the extra alt we have on each engine makes the run times shorter.

    Dave

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Why do you claim a parasailor is more complicated? More expensive, yes (though mine was second hand).
    [Edit: maybe you mean in terms of manufacture - but thats part of the price - I was thinking in terms of flying it - where I don't think its more complicated at all].

    I find the parasailor is much more tolerant to both gusts and lulls. It collapses very progressively and is easy to deal with. In fact my usual brief to crew who haven't sailed much before was 'if you see this edge collapsing, steer up a bit on the autopilot. Opposite edge, steer the other way'. Thats all that was needed and people who haven't flown spinnakers in their life were happy on watch. We've flown it from 5 knots to 25knots without issue.

    That was not my experience with spinnakers on other boats.

    Anyway - you're reasonably convinced you don't need one, and I'm not going to change your mind. You can safely save your money and buy a regular spini...
    OK, thanks for that, but you didn't sell me. By "complicated" I meant all that stuff with the slot. Our only problem with our spinnakers is getting them down when the wind is up. We have to employ some tricks involving other sails unless we have extra crew to help pull down the sock. On a parasailor, I see this as only more difficult because you need to pull the sock over that obstruction. Maybe this isn't too difficult, but it can't be any easier.

    What was your experience on other boats, and were they cats (without poles)? When the parasailors were first marketed the biggest advertised advantage was that spinnaker poles were not needed and there was less chance of broaching. Neither of these advantages apply to cats.

    Dave

  9. #29

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    OK, thanks for that, but you didn't sell me.
    I didn't think for a moment I would.

    By "complicated" I meant all that stuff with the slot. Our only problem with our spinnakers is getting them down when the wind is up. We have to employ some tricks involving other sails unless we have extra crew to help pull down the sock. On a parasailor, I see this as only more difficult because you need to pull the sock over that obstruction. Maybe this isn't too difficult, but it can't be any easier.
    Dead easy - I use a 1-way rachett block on the furling line and use my leg muscles - but it really isn't that hard. If its very windy, we let one corner fly and the sock comes zipping down. Its a total non-issue.

    What was your experience on other boats, and were they cats (without poles)? When the parasailors were first marketed the biggest advertised advantage was that spinnaker poles were not needed and there was less chance of broaching. Neither of these advantages apply to cats.
    Only monos and both with and without poles.

    Little point in continuing - you'll never be convinced and thats fine. We fly ours lots, and the crew is happy with it and thats good enough for me.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Home port Chesapeake Bay; Cruising full time.
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Little point in continuing - you'll never be convinced and thats fine.
    Not true. I wouldn't ask if I couldn't be persuaded. I am sincerely interested whether the parasailor is worth the extra money. We fly our traditional sym spis a lot as well and we're happy with them, but I am not so stubborn that I don't expect something else could be better.

    Dave

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Now cruising in the SUN! In Malta.
    Posts
    1,055

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post

    One of my considerations also, is we may very well be travelling at times / places where Sun might not stick its head out for days at a time. So ONLY solar isn't viable. Needs a backup (like anything else).
    I'm planning soon to install a Watt & Sea hydrogenerator: http://www.wattandsea.com/en for exactly that reason. So sailing in rainy weather (no sun for the solar panels ) downwind / on a reach (not enough wind for the wind generator) the hydrogenerator will keep the batteries topped up, day or night.
    Roger

    ------------------
    I look to the future, because that's where I am going to spend the rest of my life - George Burns

  12. #32

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    I hear good things about the Cristec hydrogenerator too.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Rick,

    I havn't looked at the wind stuff in detail yet. BUT, the reason I liked the verticals was mounting it high up the mast, low vibration, balanced, and 'just runs'. I'd consider it an augment to the solar, not a replacment. Something to keep things ticking along etc.

    I figure I can put 5 of the 300w Kyocera's on a frame accross the back at same level as the bimini. (basically same as Scotster has done in another post). And still have room on the Hard top for more, or a Solar hot water. The other reason for so much is shade. Depending on whats where, will loose efficiency of some panels to shade.

    I was working on w/4 as a working average. w/3 seems a little optimistic for all the time.

    Thanks for the water-maker tips.

    Regards

    Mark.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Why do you claim a parasailor is more complicated? More expensive, yes (though mine was second hand).
    [Edit: maybe you mean in terms of manufacture - but thats part of the price - I was thinking in terms of flying it - where I don't think its more complicated at all].

    I find the parasailor is much more tolerant to both gusts and lulls. It collapses very progressively and is easy to deal with. In fact my usual brief to crew who haven't sailed much before was 'if you see this edge collapsing, steer up a bit on the autopilot. Opposite edge, steer the other way'. Thats all that was needed and people who haven't flown spinnakers in their life were happy on watch. We've flown it from 5 knots to 25knots without issue.

    That was not my experience with spinnakers on other boats.

    Anyway - you're reasonably convinced you don't need one, and I'm not going to change your mind. You can safely save your money and buy a regular spini...
    Novice question. - Does the Parasailer require a pole ?
    I'm after something that can be set and furled by one person (ideally), and for cruising type sailing, Poles are just an accident waiting to happen. Really don't want one.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2hulls View Post
    Mark - have you considered solar + a larger or second alternator on each engine? The only times solar doesn't cover our needs 100% is during multi-day passages. No sun at night and you have the extra loads of auto-pilot, nav stuff, etc. So we typically have to run an engine a while each passage day to make up the difference. But we also typically have to motor some anyway, so the times when we have to run an engine just to charge batts is pretty rare. But when we do, the extra alt we have on each engine makes the run times shorter.

    Dave
    Yes, and in fact that is my preference. There are a number of over-sized Alternators that can be fitted. In fact I want to avoid an Genset. But did want to know that I COULD fit one later, and wasn't missing something obvious that made it very hard to do.

    I strongly suspect my load at anchor and on passage will be the same, or more at Anchor. Equipment will be used on passage that is obviously NOT on at anchor. But there is lots of toys we will likley run at anchor, that won't come out on passage at all.

    That said, huge caveat here, this is a guesstimate at this point, I havn't run a proper power-sheet yet.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    Novice question. - Does the Parasailer require a pole ?
    I'm after something that can be set and furled by one person (ideally), and for cruising type sailing, Poles are just an accident waiting to happen. Really don't want one.
    No pole. We soft shackle blocks to the bow cleats to give us guys that run to the genoa winches, and the sheets run back to the gennaker blocks onto the aft winches.

    Edit: But if you want something to dowse single-handed, you're probably better off looking at some furling solution with a top-down furler. Anything with a sock is goign to tough to manage on your own, I think
    Last edited by rickp; 4th April 2016 at 12:19 AM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by multihullsailor6 View Post
    I'm planning soon to install a Watt & Sea hydrogenerator: http://www.wattandsea.com/en for exactly that reason. So sailing in rainy weather (no sun for the solar panels ) downwind / on a reach (not enough wind for the wind generator) the hydrogenerator will keep the batteries topped up, day or night.
    Now that looks like a damn fine idea. Hadn't considered water power !. I like how it can be lifted out also, so as not affect drag/boatspeed when it isn't needed.

    Any idea what the impact on boat speed is with that in ? It is taking 'force' so it has to be something.

    Regards

    Mark,

  18. #38

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
    Rick,

    I havn't looked at the wind stuff in detail yet. BUT, the reason I liked the verticals was mounting it high up the mast, low vibration, balanced, and 'just runs'. I'd consider it an augment to the solar, not a replacment. Something to keep things ticking along etc.
    Worth looking at http://windtechniek.nl/Yachting-Monthly.pdf

  19. #39

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Thanks , reading now.

    The one I was refering to that looks interesting is MASTR. http://www.kronosenergysolutions.com...ts/mastR1.html

    Regards

    Mark

  20. #40

    Default Re: Lagoon 400 - Questions on Equipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickp View Post
    Yup - geek here too (in fact, in the process of another startup which means lots of power for laptop). I'd dump the electric outboard though. If you're cruising long term, you'll want more power in the dinghy!
    The electric outboard is pretty much only for the fishing kayak (That I will use as a photography platform, not a fishing one !), and can be used for the dinghy as a backup.

    For real use the Dinghy will get a standard 15hp motor I expect.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •